Really?

[ScatteredBWL]

Retribution Paladin
with Avenging Wrath: +250% proc rate
with Crusade: +25% proc rate
Note: This change should bring Convergence of Fates back to roughly its original effectiveness for Ret Paladins who are not using Crusade.

Question: What ret isn't using Crusade? And whoever you are, why not?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Shh...Blizzard might realize that Holy Wrath and DP are so shitty that they'll just nerf Crusade even more until it is just as bad.

[Daedius]

[Wondercrab]

I'm not, because I find Divine Purpose way more fun.

[preciousx]

But my question is, would DP+CoF be competitive?

[istroxpro]

This is so stupid to balance classes around legendary items, especially when I don't have any.

[snackfeat]

I'm not, because I find Divine Purpose way more fun.

Good for you, if you don't care about doing decent dps.

But my question is, would DP+CoF be competitive?

Not even close.

[ScatteredBWL]

Just another round-about way to nerf Crusade through a trinket that multiple others will be using to some extent. 25% proc rate with Crusade, unless I missed something with the numbers that's dirt?

Trying to make Avenging Wrath base seem more appealing by making the trinket sound delicious with it.

[Bormec]

I forgot video game developers have been known to have poor math skills

[Sigxy]

I just find it so wrong that they are nerfing Crusade itself with the excuse of items not everybody have. x_x It's their fault they made the other two talents not really worth picking (though granted, one is good for leveling.)

[Jiai]

I just find it so wrong that they are nerfing Crusade itself with the excuse of items not everybody have. x_x It's their fault they made the other two talents not really worth picking (though granted, one is good for leveling.)

You just said it, even without the legendary the two other talents are not really worth picking, so they nerf the third one.

Just another round-about way to nerf Crusade through a trinket that multiple others will be using to some extent. 25% proc rate with Crusade, unless I missed something with the numbers that's dirt?

Trying to make Avenging Wrath base seem more appealing by making the trinket sound delicious with it.

It is a 25% buff (after the massive nerf obviously).

This is so stupid to balance classes around legendary items, especially when I don't have any.

They are balancing the item, I don't understand what you are trying to say, unless you speal about the nerf of Crusade before, but like Sigxy said, even without legendaries, Crusade is already stronger.

[Taeldorian]

What would've been a good way to compensate is buff DP so it's worth it and maybe add a damage factor to it like every time it procs it increases the damage of tv/DS by x amount. That and also removing holy wrath and replacing it with something that isn't a complete waste of a talent that's actually worth taking.

[vivel]

What would've been a good way to compensate is buff DP so it's worth it and maybe add a damage factor to it like every time it procs it increases the damage of tv/DS by x amount. That and also removing holy wrath and replacing it with something that isn't a complete waste of a talent that's actually worth taking.

i was just thinking about that

[PaladinBash]

Divine Purpose is really good for soloing and doing world quests. That's the purpose (haha get it?) of the talent and it's great for it.

Equality/Holy Wrath is Kalgan's lovechild. You have to accept that it's never going anywhere and it's never going to be good outside of the admittedly hilarious troll niche it has occasionally had.

Crusade is always going to be better than Equality because it's never ever going to be a serious talent and Kalgan's strapped us with it. Divine Purpose is never going to be viable unless Crusade is shat on because it's an RNG talent. I wish it was better because I love the free procs and Ret's really fucking boring outside of wings with Crusade. Having a trinket that effectively buffs DP is a kinda shitty way around things really but at this point it doesn't even matter.

[Taeldorian]

Divine Purpose is really good for soloing and doing world quests. That's the purpose (haha get it?) of the talent and it's great for it.

Equality/Holy Wrath is Kalgan's lovechild. You have to accept that it's never going anywhere and it's never going to be good outside of the admittedly hilarious troll niche it has occasionally had.

Crusade is always going to be better than Equality because it's never ever going to be a serious talent and Kalgan's strapped us with it. Divine Purpose is never going to be viable unless Crusade is shat on because it's an RNG talent. I wish it was better because I love the free procs and Ret's really fucking boring outside of wings with Crusade. Having a trinket that effectively buffs DP is a kinda shitty way around things really but at this point it doesn't even matter.

Kalgan isn't on the WoW team anymore so it being his "love child" has no standing. It's a shit talent that will only ever be overpowered or underpowered as everyones been saying since beta. Obviously it being overpowered isn't an option as we've been there and it was a bit ridiculous, now it's a useless unviable and non fun talent. How great? It's not like we predicted that was going to happen as soon as this talent was implemented right??

That's nice, I'm glad DP is good for leveling (lol?) but it needs to be good for raiding too.

One talent being the only viable option for raiding is absolutely ridiculous. Because of that we end up in situations we're in right now where it's getting toned down and we aren't getting buffed in the right areas and because it's our only viable talent it's going to hurt a bit. Did crusade need to be toned down? Definitely. Are we receiving proper buffs to compensate for damage outside of crusade? Not really. We can't even pick another talent on that row because crusade is the only viable one due to DP being useless for raiding and holy wrath is holy wrath no explanation needed.

[Maduk]

It get's even more depressing (DEV(!) Statement to latest nerfs/"buffs"):

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...page=4#post-72

We are definitely keenly aware that people feel better when we fix a problem by buffing something, rather than fixing it by nerfing something. If you look across classes and talent rows in 7.1.5, you'll see the great majority of balance issues were addressed by buffing underperforming talents. There are a few factors that go into this decision though, and it generally has to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

One issue when balancing a lopsided talent row is whether we want the overall power of the spec to go slightly up or slightly down in the process. In the case of Retribution during our tuning adjustments for the opening of Nighthold, we intended to slightly nerf the topend performance of the spec (essentially, the performance of players stacking trinkets/relics/legendaries that all build around Crusade). I know there's no easy way to deliver that message, but hopefully it's at least worth clarifying that it's not some accident of how we chose to balance the L100 row. Players say "why couldn't we buff Divine Purpose instead of nerfing Crusade", for the very understandable reason that the former wouldn't have resulted in a slight DPS nerf. But we were conscious of the slight DPS nerf when we decided to do it this way.

Another factor is that there are sometimes limits on how powerful we want an individual talent to be, regardless of balance within the row. Divine Purpose and Crusade are both very strong talents, that have a significant impact on the rotation and playstyle of the spec (and as mentioned, on gear/talent/relic/etc. decisions), even at their current strength. Balancing Retribution L100 at an even higher point would start causing more issues--Divine Purpose would allow strings of multiple free finishers very often, Crusade would continue to represent a majority of the spec's damage within a cooldown, and Holy Wrath would have to get even more bursty to try to compete with the other two. Sometimes we have to be careful about addressing all balance problems by buffing two talents up to match the highest one, because it can lead to a lot of power creep on the importance of a single talent to an entire DPS rotation.

I have no words for this. IF this goes on we will be the next hunter.

[Deleted]

Just another round-about way to nerf Crusade through a trinket that multiple others will be using to some extent. 25% proc rate with Crusade, unless I missed something with the numbers that's dirt?

Trying to make Avenging Wrath base seem more appealing by making the trinket sound delicious with it.

Nono. 25% buff. Wich means it went from 1.2 to 1.5RPPM. Wich, quite honestly, is very disappointing. I was hoping for 2rppm.

Apparantly still worth it though.

[Deleted]

Nono. 25% buff. Wich means it went from 1.2 to 1.5RPPM. Wich, quite honestly, is very disappointing. I was hoping for 2rppm.

Apparantly still worth it though.

As they basically butchered it for WW-Monks, i think we are quite fine with 1.5

[Deleted]

As they basically butchered it for WW-Monks, i think we are quite fine with 1.5

Pretty sure monks still have a higher rppm than us. Because theirs was 2 rppm higher to begin with.

[Deleted]

I'm not, because I find Divine Purpose way more fun.

Come on. We turn into monsters during Crusade. I love how our damage and speed ramp up to the point where we hit for 7 digits.

I like DP during leveling, because I do not tend to use cooldowns a lot when just questing, but during dungeons/raids I don't like RNG being a big component of my damage, and low damage at that.