So, Thal'dranath was cut

[Deleted]

Not barren and boring.

The entire thing is controlled by the Legion.
You can't exactly put several factions there and act as if they've been there for millenia.

Well, barren and especially boring is a subjective term, I admit that. I think that black rock and green go design is boring by now.

But yeah, the entire thing is controlled by the legion. ~20k years ago Argus was home of the advanced civilization of the Eredar, ruled by Velen and Kil'Jaeden (and later also Archimonde). Eventually Sargeras approached them to join his ranks. He offered power, he wanted intelligent generals to lead his troops. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde accepted, Velen did not. I would expect for Argus to change once most of it's inhabitants had been turned into demons, sure, but I would also expect the Eredar to keep their civilization intact. For many reasons, vanity, pride, quality of life... simply the fact that you can plan a war very well from an organized metropolis and less so from an obsidian waste. Also the Eredar we see in WoW are mostly dressed in fine garment with pattern. I find it hard to believe to go the extra length to present themselves in a civilized manner if they were not interested in living a civilized life.

Also there is little to gain from scrapping Argus. The legion has probably thousands to millions of planets. One more planet would not change the amount of resources by a lot. Millionaires who made their money from fracking usually don't do it in their own back yard.

They retconned so much to make Sargeras of all people more reasonable. But the Eredar, a race defined by their culture and intelligence are now pretty much stripped of their identity. Had Argus still been the paradise it was before they did the pact with Sargeras you could somehow relate to them more as villains. Demonic pacts are interesting because your side of the bargain is tempting. Eredar now are one dimensional and evil for evils sake. That is not very good story telling.

I don't want to put factions there and act like they have been there for millienia. I want to see the civilization that HAS been there for millennia.

Lol @ the ignorant plebs that think Thal'dranath is happening. C'mon dude, they already said in countless of interviews that it was cut in favor of a way cooler location, this location being Argus. Also, expansions are going to be shorter now compared to before, so no, there's not gonna be a 7.4 7.5 etc.

Somehow the new location is both: "Way cooler" and "too boring to have more than one zone of"

I hope it is the first, I suspect it is the latter.

[Magical Mudcrab]

But about your second point , you're wrong. The idea of 2 factions vying for control of Legion is ridiculous. This is how demons used to be , but then Sargeras came along and united them as Burning Legion with his power. Power so great it dwarfs planets , and literally makes the whole legion (including Archie and Kel) shit themselves. I swear it's ridiculous how much people underestimate the Fel Titan on this web-site. Anyone who tried to start a coup would be evaporated.

The assumption being that Sargeras is physically near Argus, which I find unlikely. As we see from the Pantheon, the Titans work through their constructs as a form of proxy to themselves to ensure they do not outright destroy the planet (Aman'thul deeply wounded Azeroth when he pulled Y'Shaarj from the planet), and Sargeras has allowed Argus to continue existing as the Legion stronghold for a reason. Sargeras' physical body is likely elsewhere in the Twisting Nether, and I see no reason why his body would be near Argus when inter-stellar communication and oversight (through avatars and constructs) via magic is possible.

Argus is probably governed by the Lords of the Legion, who oversee the distribution of Legion forces and purging of planets (ie: the day-to-day operations, taking into account long-term plans), while Sargeras concerns himself with other, arguably more important, things, such as seeking out and destroying other nascent Titans and the works of the Void Lords.

[Nero Stormchester]

The assumption being that Sargeras is physically near Argus, which I find unlikely. As we see from the Pantheon, the Titans work through their constructs as a form of proxy to themselves to ensure they do not outright destroy the planet (Aman'thul deeply wounded Azeroth when he pulled Y'Shaarj from the planet), and Sargeras has allowed Argus to continue existing as the Legion stronghold for a reason. Sargeras' physical body is likely elsewhere in the Twisting Nether, and I see no reason why his body would be near Argus when inter-stellar communication and oversight (through avatars and constructs) via magic is possible.

Argus is probably governed by the Lords of the Legion, who oversee the distribution of Legion forces and purging of planets (ie: the day-to-day operations, taking into account long-term plans), while Sargeras concerns himself with other, arguably more important, things, such as seeking out and destroying other nascent Titans and the works of the Void Lords.

Yep, once more I totally agree on all of this. It's just I think that he probably installed some measures to prevent mutany : some spell, or an avatar which would awaken to wreak havoc . Something to make sure that the fear of disobeying him never leaves the minds of demons. But I'm pretty sure most of them love doing the Legions work anyways.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep, once more I totally agree on all of this. It's just I think that he probably installed some measures to prevent mutany : some spell, or an avatar which would awaken to wreak havoc . Something to make sure that the fear of disobeying him never leaves the minds of demons. But I'm pretty sure most of them love doing the Legions work anyways.

Even Kil'Jaeden can be said to be such a measure. In the Illidan novel , when Manaroth finds out that Illidan failed to destroy the Frozen Throne, he was extremely joyful , despite being in captivity. He mentions that Kil'jaeden , due to his unmerciful nature, was gonna do some horrible stuff to Illidan , and I'm pretty sure this would go for any failure, let alone a coup.

[Restors]

2) Its whole planet/"continent"

Now I'm curious. Isnt Argus an planet? Wasnt it the planet where draeneis coming from? I can understand Blizzard might turn it into a small islandish zone for us to explore. But at the same time, it became on of Burning Legion's bases other than Twisting Nether.

So, if Im wrong here, please do tell me the correct version.

[Mawnix]

Now I'm curious. Isnt Argus an planet? Wasnt it the planet where draeneis coming from? I can understand Blizzard might turn it into a small islandish zone for us to explore. But at the same time, it became on of Burning Legion's bases other than Twisting Nether.

So, if Im wrong here, please do tell me the correct version.

It is a planet, but since it's coming in a Patch it's far more practical that it'll be a large single zone.

Lore reasons, and why I see it justified is that we'd probably only have the resources the siege and lockdown a small portion of the planet--a foothold to do whatever it is we're going to do there.

[lanesia24]

The broken shore was renamed Thal'dranath AFTER Thal'dranath, that big island in the maps shown at Gamescom and Blizzcon 2015 was CUT

notice how 7.2 has enlarged the island a bit.

Anyway, they could have had some cool story like Azshara raising the island to the surface - that turns out to be a test for a much much much bigger event when she raises much of collapsed Kalimdor to the surface in the Azshara expansion,

They could actually do that in the last patch of the Argus expansion, and head back to the broken isles as a prelude to the big number.


Anyway, back to the topic at hand, what they have done isn't bad in the sense that at least this way people are excited rather than overly critical at missing stuff, but I think they should have been upfront about it, and make up for it later.

There was nothing on Thal'dranath but big letters across a blank island with NOTHING on it. Complaining it was cut is just pure and utter stupidity.

[Deleted]

"We moved on to the next bit of content so here is some half assed shit have fun!"

I never understood why people who hate the game this page is 95% about still have to hang around here....its not like their aint other games....

[Caerule]

As far as I'm aware Faralohn existed as much as Thal'Dranath. It was literally a map image, and a flat smudge in the world-creator engine, nothing more. I think there was more 'discussion' of it, but there wasn't any actual content removed. Maybe simply more hype because it was more well known. Salient.

Well, I stated right in the first lines of my post that no actual content was cut, so you're right, I phrased point 2 poorly. I'll edit, as we're not really in disagreement, so shouldn't argue about this one. What I meant was that there was a lot more planned with it, that ended up not happening, nor being replaced with anything else. Unlike Thal'dranath, which is being replaced with something better.

[Imnick]

Somehow the new location is both: "Way cooler" and "too boring to have more than one zone of"

I hope it is the first, I suspect it is the latter.

I know you have an agenda to forward here, one I don't entirely disagree with (they probably could have made a whole Aerugs expansion and I firmly believed that they were going to until they said otherwise), but this... really isn't the big contradiction you are implying that it is.
It's trivially easy for something to be more exciting than an island of elf ruins and yet also be a terrible location to set an expansion.
To say otherwise is to imply that Thal'Dranath itself was just at the edge of being good enough content to hold a whole expansion, which is clearly silly.

[Deleted]

I know you have an agenda to forward here, one I don't entirely disagree with (they probably could have made a whole Aerugs expansion and I firmly believed that they were going to until they said otherwise), but this... really isn't the big contradiction you are implying that it is.
It's trivially easy for something to be more exciting than an island of elf ruins and yet also be a terrible location to set an expansion.
To say otherwise is to imply that Thal'Dranath itself was just at the edge of being good enough content to hold a whole expansion, which is clearly silly.

I don't think what I have here is an agenda... I am utterly powerless to do something about Blizzards design decisions, neither do I try. I have an opinion, though. And, among other things, it is my opinion that "more interesting than a fel rock" applies to pretty much every single zone ingame, including "elven druids #4". If they do more with Argus, to make the zone more interesting, that's fine with me. But if they have the intention to spice up Argus above the fel rock template they can easily fill a whole expansion with amazing zones.

[Deleted]

Sure they can win. Just talk about stuff they're actually going to implement instead of hyping stuff that's still in a conceptual stage.

Everything at Blizzcon when it's announced is at a conceptual stage. I guess we should just cancel all future Blizzcons so people like you don't get pissy when your worldview doesn't accept that things can change.

[chazus]

Well, I stated right in the first lines of my post that no actual content was cut, so you're right, I phrased point 2 poorly. I'll edit, as we're not really in disagreement, so shouldn't argue about this one. What I meant was that there was a lot more planned with it, that ended up not happening, nor being replaced with anything else. Unlike Thal'dranath, which is being replaced with something better.

Yeah. Faralohn unfortunately was just a case of 'moving on', whereas Thal'Dranath is at least a case of 'and now for something completely different'

I think what gets me is people going on about what is 'promised' at the development stage. Stuff gets cut. It happens.

[Joeygiggles]

What? 7.3.x is Argus and it will contain the final raid instance. We already know this.

All we know is Argus is 7.3, we dont know that its the final raid.
Also why is this even a topic? This was mentioned even before the release of Legion that they had another idea for Thal'Dranath

[Lady Dragonheart]

I believe the reason was it was too much "elfy stuff" for the expansion and worked everything into wither Azuna and/or Suramar. Then again, it was really cut, as it never made it into the release build of the game.

[Sentynel]

The much cooler idea they announced in place of Thal'dranath? was the first zone for the next expansion, and then it was re-marketed as "a much better idea" - but really what it was was streamlining and then "handling" YOU the community by spinning it to make is sound cool

"we thought it would be boring to do - yet another Elven ruins place" - no you didn't, you decided to cut it, so you could get the new expansion out faster, just like Ogre island in WoD. Now some would applaud the decision, but we are not plebs to be "handled" and manipulated like this is some politics show or courtroom jury.

- i don't like this level of sneakiness, be more open with us and bite the bullet. And you are cutting a lot of stuff - but it's your game and your decision. I don't like being "managed"

Buy some shares in Blizzard and you'll get your insight. Until then, it's their game. They do whatever they wanna do with it. If they thought it wouldn't be cool, it's completely up to them.

[Raetary]

"Huh? Broken Shore was never renamed Thal'dranath,

it was.

listen to the ToS audio drama.

[chazus]

it was.

listen to the ToS audio drama.

Did, and replied. It really wasn't. It's super vague and not incorrect. They're virtually the same thing and probably should just be written off as artistic license. Not only that but it wasn't 'renamed after'... The thing was written before Thal'Dranath was removed. They probably (at the time, 2015/early 2016) had every intent to have TD in there, as it.. .well.. existed.

[Katie45]

Yeah.

I'm a big elven fan but at the same time can easily see that apart from two zones you have launch and the first patch being near enough all about Elves is easily enough for an expansion about the legion. Thal'danath would just bring us into Elven fatigue which is bad enough for most people. It's one reason why people get fed up with Orcs and Humans.

yep not to mention, the naga story will definaly be about elves again so why should blizzard repeat there orc mistake but with elves?

[Alice in Wonderland]

I think going to Argus makes more sense in the end, but Thal'dranath could still exist before 7.3, like a Timeless Isle. Maybe it could come with a mini raid to hold us over until the patch. The sooner the better, because not many want another drought.

[Plutarch78]

i suspect it was a smart management decision, it cuts development time, you remove an entire zone and isntead give the first zone of the next expac you were already working on instead. By doing so, and clever PR, you make it look like you're doing something great

first of all, you make the idea of Thal'dranath seem silly and terrible - something you were going to do seriously - afterall we have lots of elven ruins in Kalimdor, why do the broken isles at all if it's a problem having "more elven ruins" but by phrasing it like that, with an air of mystery that we had between the announcement and the revelation in last blizzcon, you manage the PR

Secondly, you cut the time for the wait down, because you're already giving the first zone, the players are losing content promised, but the "spin" over it makes it look like they're gaining instead, while you have less work to do and prevent a PR disaster with the 2 huge moans of:

1. Blizzard promised and did not deliver .--- AGAIN (Thal'dranath cut)
2. Blizzard took another 1 year between expansions - this is the last straw I'm out.

You're being managed and you don't even know it. That is a bad thing, however the decision to do what they are doing is actually quite smart and logical giving their resources. The community is a bit too unforgiving with blizzard, and mild discontent or just minor annoyances can turn into huge aggro with us, - we really are "the emo generation"

As long as people are buying accounts, staying subbed and using the shop Blizzard will continue to feel they can do whatever they want.