Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Deleted]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating with a sim to back it up. Some of the legendaries change your talent preferences and stat priorities in certain ways. For instance, the Mantle of Command. If you do get it and want to use it, you will want to change your talents a bit. Here's the top 20 or so talent combinations for single target with tier and the Mantle.

It's interesting you should say that when the second top option is the standard Dire Stable, Stomp, Bestial Fury, Crows and Killer Cobra we've been rocking since the start of the expansion.

AMR shows a large difference between talents choices. Old standard DS, Stomp, BF, Crows and KC as 642k where the 'new standard' WotC, Stomp, BF, Crows and AotB is 659k. BGH, Stomp, OwtP, Crows and AotB climbs all the way up to 675k where swapping AotB for KC lowers it to 670k.

I don't know why there is such a large difference between the two sims (ignoring actual DPS numbers and just focusing on the % difference between talent picks from your sim and AMR's). I use AMR for ease of use since I'm not hardcore nor in an hardcore guild.

I feel that the gains are minimal. 20k is nice but put in perspective when doing 600k+ it's not huge, and that's when I feel that common sense and generalized use becomes more important than a niche. BGH seems great on a big bag of HP where the 80% phase will last for a while, but the first 20% of a fight isn't particularly important (reverse rational from glyphing Killing shot, or whatever the name was back in Cataclysm, the shot that only activated when a target was at -20% HP, which was that at 20% was when we needed to push and raid members might be dead, even if meant on progression fights where wipes happened pre-20% made the glyph useless). It's not particularly useful on adds either since they are usually of lower HP and will quickly get under 80%.

I have a hard time deciding with OwtP. It is based off RNG which is ugh, but it gives more procs of Dire Beast which is yay. I can still get behind it as I happen to be one of the lotto winners that got the Mantle which means no wasted procs. Without it I would have stuck to Blink Strikes. With the 4p and the Mantle it synergizes well and more importantly it will work everytime, everywhere, on anything.

WotC and Dire Stable are harder to quantify. We're going to throw a lot of Dire Beasts anyway. Do we want more ST or do we want more focus? I'm leaning towards focus. With more focus we can throw more Cobra Shots which kinda evens out. WotC is simmed higher than DS on pure ST though, obviously but in an AoE phase where we don't touch Cobra Shot but will be using Dire Beast on CD the extra focus will be used where WotC will sit useless.

KC and AotB (assuming AotB is properly simmed with AMR since there was a bit of a snafu with it a couple of weeks ago) is simple: burst VS sustain. For short phases like killing important adds bursting is more important. I'd mention Skorpiron's vulnerable phase but that's one boss out of an entire raid.

Using AMR's Ursoc heroic to sim will favor all the sustain talents but the more generalist talents seem to fit better for more situations. A proper hardcore player will change talents according to the fights, of course.

[Ekr]

Hello!
MM : Is it worth using multishot on two targets with legendary belt?
Thank you!

[Sabinn]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating with a sim to back it up. Some of the legendaries change your talent preferences and stat priorities in certain ways. For instance, the Mantle of Command. If you do get it and want to use it, you will want to change your talents a bit. Here's the top 20 or so talent combinations for single target with tier and the Mantle.

Yep, I also noticed that. If I sim my char with the 4p and the mantle, the BGH + Owtp combo comes out on top giving me around 70-80% BW uptime , the difference between BGH and Way of the cobra is really small and I think it depends on Encounters. Normally you dont want to use BGH on long encounters where hero is used first. BGH benefits from fast encounters and fights that spawn full life high health minions .

[Aldare]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating with a sim to back it up. Some of the legendaries change your talent preferences and stat priorities in certain ways. For instance, the Mantle of Command. If you do get it and want to use it, you will want to change your talents a bit. Here's the top 20 or so talent combinations for single target with tier and the Mantle.

BM Single Target Talents with Mantle of Command Legendary and Tier (Simcraft Source)


The mantle can also change your stat priorities a bit because of the relationship between it and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=185789/wild-call (Wild Call). Wild Call resets dire beast based on autoshot crits, so if you do One With the Pack, you have a 50% chance on each autoshot crit to reset your Dire Beast.

When looking at the talent breakdowns, try copying your own gear and settings into the Simcraft Source file I provide and running these for yourself, with your gear. Legendaries can change the recommended talents just as much as tier, and it's hard to sim everything for everyone.

Interesting results. The DS/OwtP combo comes out on top for me personally, even without changing any gear around from the previous Haste/mastery focus. When gemming and enchanting crit however, OwtP is a full 20K DPS ahead of the best Bestial Fury setup. Dire Stable is also ahead of both BGH and WotC on a single target in my sim.

[Khrux]

Also worth mentioning that OwtP is really awkward to play with, if your using Shoulders+Tier. You are just drowning in DB procs and they really mess with your BW cd times. You often getting BW coming up with no focus pooled yet from the previous BW, then more and more procs start so your forced to use BW with low focus just so you can spend charges without wasting the CD reduction. So you end up spending alot of time in BW but with very little focus to actual use.

I only tried it on mythic Krosus this week, but I felt as though I had a smoother rotation with BF and was more in control of my BW windows. Maybe it just takes getting use to.

[Deleted]

Hello!
MM : Is it worth using multishot on two targets with legendary belt?
Thank you!

As far as i know and tested then you only use MS with Proc to aply vuln on 2 Targets. Then you continue with your ST rota

[Aldare]

Also worth mentioning that OwtP is really awkward to play with, if your using Shoulders+Tier. You are just drowning in DB procs and they really mess with your BW cd times. You often getting BW coming up with no focus pooled yet from the previous BW, then more and more procs start so your forced to use BW with low focus just so you can spend charges without wasting the CD reduction. So you end up spending alot of time in BW but with very little focus to actual use.

I only tried it on mythic Krosus this week, but I felt as though I had a smoother rotation with BF and was more in control of my BW windows. Maybe it just takes getting use to.

Rotation smoothness aside, what setup was giving you the best numbers? OwtP or BF?

[Khrux]

Rotation smoothness aside, what setup was giving you the best numbers? OwtP or BF?

I can't say, as I only tried it for one boss and it was the only boss we did that night(first kill) which also meant my dps was not optimal due to learning a new fight and being focused on adds so pet downtime was real from target swaps.

Sims suggest OwtP is the best ST option with Shoulders+Tier but the difference is almost non-existant as shown in effinhunter's sims.

[huerohueroxxx]

Guys, i know that this have been asked before but i didnt see atm, what is the best spec for m+/raid atm?

[Aldare]

I can't say, as I only tried it for one boss and it was the only boss we did that night(first kill) which also meant my dps was not optimal due to learning a new fight and being focused on adds so pet downtime was real from target swaps.

Sims suggest OwtP is the best ST option with Shoulders+Tier but the difference is almost non-existant as shown in effinhunter's sims.

Yeah, as I mentioned in my earlier post OwtP is 20K DPS ahead of BF in my single target sim, but as you say it might be hard to effectively take advantage of that due to the RNG nature of the Wild Call procs.

[Deleted]

Also worth mentioning that OwtP is really awkward to play with, if your using Shoulders+Tier. You are just drowning in DB procs and they really mess with your BW cd times. You often getting BW coming up with no focus pooled yet from the previous BW, then more and more procs start so your forced to use BW with low focus just so you can spend charges without wasting the CD reduction. So you end up spending alot of time in BW but with very little focus to actual use.

I only tried it on mythic Krosus this week, but I felt as though I had a smoother rotation with BF and was more in control of my BW windows. Maybe it just takes getting use to.

It's why I changed to Dire Stable despite Way of the Cobra simming for more. With three DBs out I feel like I'm under Heroism with Focus taking leaps forward.

[Aldare]

It's why I changed to Dire Stable despite Way of the Cobra simming for more. With three DBs out I feel like I'm under Heroism with Focus taking leaps forward.

Dire Stable actually outsims Way of the Cobra for me on ST. Though this is with the shoulders of course.

[Khrux]

I've looked over a few logs to compare to my own for M-Krosus. All with tier and shoulders but then OwtP versus BF. (legendarys were all Shoulders/Pyrdaz so no other influences like boots/belt)

I got 110 DBs(70% Wrath uptime and 86% DB uptime) with tier, shoulders and OwtP.(shoulders/pyrdaz)
The highest parsing hunter(shoulders/pyrdaz) on M-Krosus with tier, shoulders and OwtP got 112 DBs(basically same uptimes on Wrath/DB).

Then two other highest parsing hunters(shoulder/pyrdaz) with tier, shoulders and BF got:
94 DBs (58% Wrath uptime and 79% DB uptime)
86 DBs (54% Wrath uptime and 80% DB uptime)

The uptime differences are fairly large for Wrath(albeit the higher uptime with OwtP is with a weaker Wrath versus BF) but the DB count is also significant due to stomp dmg. I still don't see this 20k you are mentioning from sims though, in favour of OwtP as there just isn't enough focus to actually spend in the huge BW uptimes.

[Aldare]

I've looked over a few logs to compare to my own for M-Krosus. All with tier and shoulders but then OwtP versus BF. (legendarys were all Shoulders/Pyrdaz so no other influences like boots/belt)

I got 110 DBs(70% Wrath uptime and 86% DB uptime) with tier, shoulders and OwtP.(shoulders/pyrdaz)
The highest parsing hunter(shoulders/pyrdaz) on M-Krosus with tier, shoulders and OwtP got 112 DBs(basically same uptimes on Wrath/DB).

Then two other highest parsing hunters(shoulder/pyrdaz) with tier, shoulders and BF got:
94 DBs (58% Wrath uptime and 79% DB uptime)
86 DBs (54% Wrath uptime and 80% DB uptime)

The uptime differences are fairly large for Wrath(albeit the higher uptime with OwtP is with a weaker Wrath versus BF) but the DB count is also significant due to stomp dmg. I still don't see this 20k you are mentioning from sims though, in favour of OwtP as there just isn't enough focus to actually spend in the huge BW uptimes.

The 20K difference in favour of OwtP is after changing all gems/enchants to crit, but even before then OwtP was ahead of BF for me by a decent margin (higher than whats shown in Effins sims).

[Deleted]

Dire Stable actually outsims Way of the Cobra for me on ST. Though this is with the shoulders of course.

I use AMR and it says different for me. I'm currently at 890 despite what my armory says, but have both the shoulders and 4p.

But basically I returned to DS and KC after a stint with WotC and AotB, both of which simmed for more, and I'm preferring it. The burst for adds is better and as mention we have so much BW uptime and so many DBs (especially with OwtP) being thrown that everything synergizes well.

As I was saying above considering the minimal gains (20k out of 600k) it's better to think about generic use and niche use. The usual complaint with KC is the focus starvation. I find I am not nearly as starved nowadays as I used to be thanks to DS, shoulders and OwtP I did ARM sim changing enchants and gems to crit but the gains were very very minimal. Something like 2k. I also barely got 2-3% out of it.

[bazzzyl]

"Classes
Hunter
With the Dire Frenzy talent, the Eagletalon Battlegear Beast Mastery 2-piece bonus should now grant your pet 10% increased damage for 15 seconds. This will not be reflected in the tooltip until Patch 7.2."

Is this implemented in recent simcraft alfa(simc-715-02-win64-f9aa5ce.7z 2017-02-07 06:44)

[Zoopercat]

@bazzzyl It's updated on AMR.

edit: I thought it was updated in SimC but msg'd the main dev to double check bc a couple ppl pm'd me about it too. It turns out they have to edit that by hand, since the tooltip data isn't updated (and that's where they get their data). I believe he's edited it and would guess it will be updated in the nightly build.

[Sabinn]

"Classes
Hunter
With the Dire Frenzy talent, the Eagletalon Battlegear Beast Mastery 2-piece bonus should now grant your pet 10% increased damage for 15 seconds. This will not be reflected in the tooltip until Patch 7.2."

Is this implemented in recent simcraft alfa(simc-715-02-win64-f9aa5ce.7z 2017-02-07 06:44)

I tried it out, dire frenzy still loses to dire beasts . If you get a single dire beast proc during or right before BW it means you have 2 buffed beasts out outdpsing the added damage you would have with dire frenzy.


over the course of 100m damage on a dummy

Dire frenzy - 590-620k
Stomp - 640k-720k


Thats how powerful procs are with Stomp.

I am guessing blizzard needs to fix this and stack the 10% damage with procs as well or its not even a challenge.

@bazzzyl It's updated on AMR.

Ask Mr Robot has the tier set inverted still. 2 piece in place of 4 piece. As does SimCraft.

[Hiricine]

I tried it out, dire frenzy still loses to dire beasts . If you get a single dire beast proc during or right before BW it means you have 2 buffed beasts out outdpsing the added damage you would have with dire frenzy.


over the course of 100m damage on a dummy

Dire frenzy - 590-620k
Stomp - 640k-720k


Thats how powerful procs are with Stomp.

I am guessing blizzard needs to fix this and stack the 10% damage with procs as well or its not even a challenge.



Ask Mr Robot has the tier set inverted still. 2 piece in place of 4 piece. As does SimCraft.

Keep in mind that Dire frenzy damage increase is not simply the hits your pet does with the frenzy, but also a stacking 42% haste buff (needs proc/mantle/bloodlust to stack it). Havent crunched the numbers but I'm pretty confident that on ST the pet auto attack damage comes out ahead of dire beast auto attacks. On top of that, Dire frenzy gives its focus instantly as compared to dire beast which does it over time.

[Sabinn]

Keep in mind that Dire frenzy damage increase is not simply the hits your pet does with the frenzy, but also a stacking 42% haste buff (needs proc/mantle/bloodlust to stack it). Havent crunched the numbers but I'm pretty confident that on ST the pet auto attack damage comes out ahead of dire beast auto attacks. On top of that, Dire frenzy gives its focus instantly as compared to dire beast which does it over time.

I dont have the mantle but I sure used bloodlust on all my testings and dire frenzy was behind by a huge margin. Further procs of dire frenzy do not stack while dire beast does.