Overall, was Survival a failure?

[Raugnaut]

Concept is allright - Rotation is complete crap. What the fuck was Blizz thinking when they gave Survival both the slowest energy regen (10/second, only improved by haste or a not-so-good talent), AND the highest cost priority move (Flanking Strike takes out 9 energy/second just to use it on CD. Lacerate takes up another 2 to keep it up 100%. So you can't even use Flanking on CD AND keep Lacerate up 100%, to say nothing of the many other energy-costing abilities).

If Flanking had its cost removed, or just halved, would fix a lot of Survival's rotational clunkiness.

[Khrux]

I'd like to see Raptor strike become a focus generator used as the main filler with Flanking Strike changed to always grant a mongoose charge. Then completely rework mastery to be "increases the dmg % of mongoose fury stacks"(similar to Boomkins mastery, sort of) while capping max Mongoose fury @3(mastery scales fury stack % now!)

To alleviate ability bloat, I'd have caltrops and Steel Trap both replace explosive trap(instead of Tar/Ice) so that tier4 is a choice of sustained AoE with 100% uptime(Caltrops), burst aoe with a dot and no 100% uptime(Explosive trap) or pure ST dot with no direct dmg(Steel Trap).

You now have a resource generator - Raptor
Your focus dump and mongoose charge generator - Flanking
You have 2 maintenance dots - Lacerate and your choice of Explosive/Caltrops/Steel
Then mongoose spam + Fury of the Eagle remain unchanged.

Rotation then looks like apply lacerate and trap, use all mongoose charges when @ 3 charges, flanking on CD to generate mongoose charges and raptor in between to fuel the focus for flanking/dots on CD. When you reach 3 stacks of mongoose you use any additional charges from Flanking you can then finish with Fury of the Eagle.

You can still have Mok'Nathal stacks to watch and can still talent Crows if you want extra buttons to press or extra things to monitor.

The end result? You have scaling mastery stat worth a damn and the static nature of mongoose charge generation creates proper windows in which you maintain dots/buffs and have a reason to both generate and dump focus - a working spec.

[DeicideUH]

I'd like to see Raptor strike become a focus generator used as the main filler with Flanking Strike changed to always grant a mongoose charge. Then completely rework mastery to be "increases the dmg % of mongoose fury stacks"(similar to Boomkins mastery, sort of) while capping max Mongoose fury @3(mastery scales fury stack % now!)

To alleviate ability bloat, I'd have caltrops and Steel Trap both replace explosive trap(instead of Tar/Ice) so that tier4 is a choice of sustained AoE with 100% uptime(Caltrops), burst aoe with a dot and no 100% uptime(Explosive trap) or pure ST dot with no direct dmg(Steel Trap).

You now have a resource generator - Raptor
Your focus dump and mongoose charge generator - Flanking
You have 2 maintenance dots - Lacerate and your choice of Explosive/Caltrops/Steel
Then mongoose spam + Fury of the Eagle remain unchanged.

Rotation then looks like apply lacerate and trap, use all mongoose charges when @ 3 charges, flanking on CD to generate mongoose charges and raptor in between to fuel the focus for flanking/dots on CD. When you reach 3 stacks of mongoose you use any additional charges from Flanking you can then finish with Fury of the Eagle.

You can still have Mok'Nathal stacks to watch and can still talent Crows if you want extra buttons to press or extra things to monitor.

The end result? You have scaling mastery stat worth a damn and the static nature of mongoose charge generation creates proper windows in which you maintain dots/buffs and have a reason to both generate and dump focus - a working spec.

I like this.

[Bepples]

The reason I don't accept popularity as a measure of success is because not all classes/specs can be equally popular, however each class/spec can be equally viable in game content through balancing. So you can measure success by how effective the class/spec is at actually playing the game.

Having said that, I think the success/failure result can be split out into a number of areas. It can be a success in one aspect and a failure in another, such as viability in end game content versus acceptance by the game and/or hunter community.

I'm don't disagree that popularity wise Survival didn't hit the mark, they failed to market it to the hunter community and would always have gotten negativity from a community expectant of 3 ranged specs. On spec viability they took their time but have it in a good place now, on actual playability I think its still lacking polish.

In alot of ways Survival in its current form is an analogue of Feral, its not a popular spec, its considered one of the most difficult specs to play well and its underperforming for the most part this Xpac. Yet those who like Feral are diehards who will defend their spec zealously but alot of people who play it casually want it to be dumbed down and more accessible. Whereas for Survival you have casuals who like it and the diehards absolute hate it and want it gone.

Would you consider Feral a failure because its unpopular, unwieldy and underperforming?
Would you consider Frost mage a failure because its unpopular and underperforming?
Would you consider Sub rogue a failure because its unpopular and unwieldy?
Would you consider Survival a failure because its unpopular and unwieldy?

If you can only answer yes to the Survival question, then your only measure of success for Survival is whether its ranged or melee....

This post rests on the assumption that SV is about as unpopular as Sub, Frost, and Feral, yet even those specs which DO fit the "unpopular" moniker are all several times more represented in PvE content than Survival.

Also, no level of marketing would make people who would never play melee want to play melee.

[cLax0n]

In what universe is BM a fast paced archer spec? I can't think of any spec with more downtime. It's kinda fast paced when you have heroism and aspect of the wild active with Killer Cobra talented, but outside of that it plays like a slow turd.

Assassination Rogue; funny how they don't really share that stigma of being stupid easy to play either. Someone else mentioned Feral Druid being super difficult, yet that spec also has a lot of downtime as well.

[DekyD]

Thinking back, they had a nice and fun idea back in early WoD with how survival could have worked out. But imo survival was theee shit at the end of MoP in SoO. If they just could have kept going with how survival worked in Siege and tweaked explosive shot and how mastery worked, they could have made survival a really solid and creative specc.

[xZerocidex]

Thinking back, they had a nice and fun idea back in early WoD with how survival could have worked out. But imo survival was theee shit at the end of MoP in SoO. If they just could have kept going with how survival worked in Siege and tweaked explosive shot and how mastery worked, they could have made survival a really solid and creative specc.

Agreed, they could've pushed the theme of range SV towards more magical shots, giving them something that did frost damage or synergized with ES. As for their Mastery I believe SV received a flat % bonus whereas FDKs and Sin rogues were multiplicative(Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.), they should've reworked their mastery to function like these two specs.

[Gurg]

This post rests on the assumption that SV is about as unpopular as Sub, Frost, and Feral, yet even those specs which DO fit the "unpopular" moniker are all several times more represented in PvE content than Survival.

Also, no level of marketing would make people who would never play melee want to play melee.

I used to bash heads on with Epic, but this is spot on statement.
Just following up. Excluding "fun factor" why would anyone play button bloated spec that does mediocore damage when pretty much every other melee does things better, with less of an effort?


Would not go too much into why and where, Survival topic are getting really.. "old thing?" where theres not much to say anymore, honestly we are all well aware of the state of survival and that its not gonna change any time soon, maybe they will rework spec a bit clearing button bloat, but it will stay melee for a year or two for sure.
BUT melee survival should have been 4th spec or atleast we could have mechanics like infamous "Gladiator Stance" for switching from ranged to melee.
I dont know the future of survival, honestly as i see it Blizzard just made a mess without a reason. The mess that will take a long time to clear up.

Agreed, they could've pushed the theme of range SV towards more magical shots, giving them something that did frost damage or synergized with ES. As for their Mastery I believe SV received a flat % bonus whereas FDKs and Sin rogues were multiplicative(Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.), they should've reworked their mastery to function like these two specs.

From a melee only player standpoint and someone whos interested in ranged classes enough just to be able to counter their mechanics, honestly, i saw Survival more as gadget based spec, goblin/gnome engineering used for a "advanced optimist" who moved away from magic and went more mecha.

Next, no, all classes that are buffed in .5 got a flat buff, but the thing is that on some spec those buffs synergies better than on other.
As for mastery.

Yea, they could first address button bloat/Talents where we have too many buttons that do mediocore stuff. Comparing to, lets say Frost DK, Fury warrior, WW monks and enhance shamans (since i have them and play them when i have nothing to do on my Surv) Survival has far too many active talents with passive lagging behind quite a bit. Even so when you look at them, most of passive talents should be baked in skills baseline, for instance "Serpent Sting" and "Mortal Wounds" should affect Lacerate, carve and Raptor Strike, giving you a bleeding DoT that has the chance to proc your Mastery. Caltrops should be an passive talent upgrade for Explosive Trap, when it explodes it leaves Caltrops that apply bleeding DoT which is then affected via previous Mentioned SS and MW.

Raptor Strike build could be more focused on DoT Damage with you being majority of the damage and pet being there clawing things with you or doing AoE. high uptime on bleeds, but low on MF window.

Flanking Strike could be opposite, putting your pet (with Blink Strikes baseline honestly) as main source of your damage, giving you a feel where your pet is major source of damage (since its well trained by you because class fantasy) with you supporting it, much as BM hunters, just melee.

[Hammerfest]

I think it's just unfinished. It has the potential to be a great spec... I just think they didn't finish it before Legion launch.

[Gurg]

I think it's just unfinished. It has the potential to be a great spec... I just think they didn't finish it before Legion launch.

Agree on this one, as i said in my comment just above yours, it looks like so many things in it are actually designed to be baked together baseline or in a talent but they run out off time so they went with "we wont make it in time, lets take some of things that should be baked in and make them as talents, or simply split one talent into few."
Best example of this is "Mortal Wounds" talent. Honestly since vanilla i havent seen such a low talent "2% chance." that looks like it was designed to be baked in the spec or in a "Serpent Sting" talent and work with your bleeds.

[Guran]

This post rests on the assumption that SV is about as unpopular as Sub, Frost, and Feral, yet even those specs which DO fit the "unpopular" moniker are all several times more represented in PvE content than Survival.

Also, no level of marketing would make people who would never play melee want to play melee.

Well if you're against playing melee, then ofcourse you'll try to justify that with any argument you can because you feel they have taken away a possible extra spec to play. Not to mention that any valid critiscism you make is diminished because it can also be chalked up to "he hates it anyway".

If you only play ranged, then really you shouldn't be discussing about a melee spec. I don't see Elemental Shamans complain about Enhancement because it's melee. No, they talk about the spec they actually like and play.

[Bepples]

Well if you're against playing melee, then ofcourse you'll try to justify that with any argument you can because you feel they have taken away a possible extra spec to play. Not to mention that any valid critiscism you make is diminished because it can also be chalked up to "he hates it anyway".

I mean, it's a historically unpopular spec in Legion despite all the developer attention, buffs, and supposed maximum enjoyability of all specs if SV hunters are to be believed.

If you only play ranged, then really you shouldn't be discussing about a melee spec. I don't see Elemental Shamans complain about Enhancement because it's melee. No, they talk about the spec they actually like and play.

Sorry, the spec I actually liked and played was removed to make the melee spec happen. Also, the other two options were shunned throughout the testing process in favour of devoting attention to the melee spec resulting in two more options I no longer like.

Oh, and for the trillionth time in this thread: there is a big, big difference between a melee spec that has been melee since the start and a melee spec that is replacing an established ranged spec.

[xZerocidex]

I used to bash heads on with Epic, but this is spot on statement.
Just following up. Excluding "fun factor" why would anyone play button bloated spec that does mediocore damage when pretty much every other melee does things better, with less of an effort?


Would not go too much into why and where, Survival topic are getting really.. "old thing?" where theres not much to say anymore, honestly we are all well aware of the state of survival and that its not gonna change any time soon, maybe they will rework spec a bit clearing button bloat, but it will stay melee for a year or two for sure.
BUT melee survival should have been 4th spec or atleast we could have mechanics like infamous "Gladiator Stance" for switching from ranged to melee.
I dont know the future of survival, honestly as i see it Blizzard just made a mess without a reason. The mess that will take a long time to clear up.



From a melee only player standpoint and someone whos interested in ranged classes enough just to be able to counter their mechanics, honestly, i saw Survival more as gadget based spec, goblin/gnome engineering used for a "advanced optimist" who moved away from magic and went more mecha.

Next, no, all classes that are buffed in .5 got a flat buff, but the thing is that on some spec those buffs synergies better than on other.
As for mastery.

Yea, they could first address button bloat/Talents where we have too many buttons that do mediocore stuff. Comparing to, lets say Frost DK, Fury warrior, WW monks and enhance shamans (since i have them and play them when i have nothing to do on my Surv) Survival has far too many active talents with passive lagging behind quite a bit. Even so when you look at them, most of passive talents should be baked in skills baseline, for instance "Serpent Sting" and "Mortal Wounds" should affect Lacerate, carve and Raptor Strike, giving you a bleeding DoT that has the chance to proc your Mastery. Caltrops should be an passive talent upgrade for Explosive Trap, when it explodes it leaves Caltrops that apply bleeding DoT which is then affected via previous Mentioned SS and MW.

Raptor Strike build could be more focused on DoT Damage with you being majority of the damage and pet being there clawing things with you or doing AoE. high uptime on bleeds, but low on MF window.

Flanking Strike could be opposite, putting your pet (with Blink Strikes baseline honestly) as main source of your damage, giving you a feel where your pet is major source of damage (since its well trained by you because class fantasy) with you supporting it, much as BM hunters, just melee.

Yeah that's I viewed SV as being a gadget themed spec, if SV was range right now they could've given them talents that utilized stings, shots that could've involved them strapping a gadget to the arrow, and also give them a talent options to switch out traps for grenades.

There were a selection of routes to take but Blizz decides to drop the ball again, ppl wouldn't have cared of a 4 spec was added.

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Well if you're against playing melee, then ofcourse you'll try to justify that with any argument you can because you feel they have taken away a possible extra spec to play. Not to mention that any valid critiscism you make is diminished because it can also be chalked up to "he hates it anyway".

If you only play ranged, then really you shouldn't be discussing about a melee spec. I don't see Elemental Shamans complain about Enhancement because it's melee. No, they talk about the spec they actually like and play.

The reason you don't see Elemental Shaman complaining about Enhancement is b/c Ele spec still performs the same role(I.E. still being ranged.). Let Blizz change one of the rogue specs from melee to range how much you wanna bet there would be a shitstorm in the community?

[ColbaneX]

Yeah that's I viewed SV as being a gadget themed spec, if SV was range right now they could've given them talents that utilized stings, shots that could've involved them strapping a gadget to the arrow, and also give them a talent options to switch out traps for grenades.

There were a selection of routes to take but Blizz decides to drop the ball again, ppl wouldn't have cared of a 4 spec was added.

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The reason you don't see Elemental Shaman complaining about Enhancement is b/c Ele spec still performs the same role(I.E. still being ranged.). Let Blizz change one of the rogue specs from melee to range how much you wanna bet there would be a shitstorm in the community?

A lot of people were clamoring for Assassination to become ranged(using a crossbow or the like) so...your argument is a bit invalid there.

[xZerocidex]

A lot of people were clamoring for Assassination to become ranged(using a crossbow or the like) so...your argument is a bit invalid there.

Where are these lots of ppl at then? I can dismiss your claims as well.

If you think changing the Sin from melee to range won't upset some ppl then you're delusional.

[Trapped]

In WOD surv wasn't played a lot because they nerfed it to oblivion, not because nobody liked it

Which makes you think, did they purposely make it that bad so people wouldn't play it? I mean, if Survival in WoD was high dps and everyone played it, how do you think the players would handle it? The same way if they made Marks or BM a melee spec. Poorly.

Blizzard had melee Survival in the works since WoD. It's clear to me.

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A lot of people were clamoring for Assassination to become ranged(using a crossbow or the like) so...your argument is a bit invalid there.

Never heard of this. If anything, the whole pirate theme of the way Outlaw plays now could be a gun-using ranged spec.

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Agree on this one, as i said in my comment just above yours, it looks like so many things in it are actually designed to be baked together baseline or in a talent but they run out off time so they went with "we wont make it in time, lets take some of things that should be baked in and make them as talents, or simply split one talent into few."
Best example of this is "Mortal Wounds" talent. Honestly since vanilla i havent seen such a low talent "2% chance." that looks like it was designed to be baked in the spec or in a "Serpent Sting" talent and work with your bleeds.

Well I disagree. The ranged Survival in WoD was purposely made into a shit spec so no one would play it, which would allow them to make this retarded melee spec. Imo, they've had this in the works since sometime in WoD, so the argument that the current Survival is "unfinished" is just wishful thinking. It's clunky, its bloated, and its a melee spec that no one asked for, or wanted. Like i said in an earlier post, Blizzard was banking on the nostalgia of "omg melee hunter is back" to sell this spec, and it failed. Vanilla/BC survival hunters were still a ranged, and anyone meleeing the entire time was clearly doing it wrong.

[xZerocidex]

Which makes you think, did they purposely make it that bad so people wouldn't play it? I mean, if Survival in WoD was high dps and everyone played it, how do you think the players would handle it? The same way if they made Marks or BM a melee spec. Poorly.

Blizzard had melee Survival in the works since WoD. It's clear to me.

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Never heard of this. If anything, the whole pirate theme of the way Outlaw plays now could be a gun-using ranged spec.

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Well I disagree. The ranged Survival in WoD was purposely made into a shit spec so no one would play it, which would allow them to make this retarded melee spec. Imo, they've had this in the works since sometime in WoD, so the argument that the current Survival is "unfinished" is just wishful thinking. It's clunky, its bloated, and its a melee spec that no one asked for, or wanted. Like i said in an earlier post, Blizzard was banking on the nostalgia of "omg melee hunter is back" to sell this spec, and it failed. Vanilla/BC survival hunters were still a ranged, and anyone meleeing the entire time was clearly doing it wrong.

Pretty sure that was their intention, anybody with a brain could put 2 and 2 together to realize nerfing Serpent Sting wasn't a bug considering it functioned that way in SoO as far as I can remember.

[Uriel]

Where are these lots of ppl at then? I can dismiss your claims as well.

If you think changing the Sin from melee to range won't upset some ppl then you're delusional.

I heard those rumors too and to be honest for a time I considered making rogue my main if they had gotten a ranged spec.
They already had the basics in the game. The throw that generated combo points and the ranged finished you could spec for. Parts of it are still available as rouges clearly have the best ranged options of all melee (if you exclude the boomkin CD of cats)

I was hoping for a spec that throws knifes and shuriken with some of the defensives of the D3 demonhunter. It could have been great as most of the ideas ands skills were already there or in another game.

[Bepples]

Pretty sure that was their intention, anybody with a brain could put 2 and 2 together to realize nerfing Serpent Sting wasn't a bug considering it functioned that way in SoO as far as I can remember.

Also, have a look at this:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_Serpent_Sting

Cataclysm talent: makes Serpent Sting deal at least some of its damage on application.

Almost certainly wasn't a bug in WoD: the idea had already been implemented in some capacity prior to that.

[Deleted]

well, I'm actually pretty certain that it was a "bug", at least the multistrike part, I'm not even sure if they removed the multistrikes extra ticks, or all the ticks, I stopped playing after BRF.

Certain specs were clearly more favored than others, some didn't benefit at all even though they should've been.

Doesn't change the fact that they knew SV was completely reliant on it and after they took that away, they gave nothing in return