Is history wrong?

[Dezerte]

How do you explain sites like puma punku or any of the other 5000+ year old sites with 1 tonne+ stones that fit together perfectly without mortar?

The stones of Puma Punku are made of sandstone, and sandstone is easily workable with just regular stone tools. It probably did require a large amount of knowledge and skill to do those precise cuts but that is absolutely within the realm of possibility of that time.

[Fascinate]

One of the earliest, if not THE earliest, written documents to survive is a shopping list; http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...opping-receipt

The oldest joke recorded is a fart joke; http://www.reuters.com/article/us-jo...14785120080731

We really haven't changed much at all.

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Estimated by who?

Radiocarbon dating puts Pumapunku at right around 1500 years old, built somewhere around 5-600 CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku



You just went from "10000 years ago" to "five centuries ago", and you don't seem to realize this.

And again; mortar allows us to get away with faster work, not better work. It's an efficiency advantage, that's it. There's nothing about Pumapunku that's unexplainable; the stone is relatively soft and easy to work with stone tools. It's still an amazing piece of construction, but it isn't magic.

My bad i had the names mistaken, puma punku was the one with machined-like holes, which also need explaining.

Also, check this:
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/top50stones.htm

[Endus]

Please try and keep perspective people. The pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for THREE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS. 3,800. I dont doubt for a second fart jokes have been happening that long, but how do you explain to me above.

They were built ridiculously high because pharaohs were in a constant state of one-upsmanship with prior pharaohs, and each needed their tomb to be bigger and more fantastic than the last.

Subsequent cultures just never had the same relatively insane need to spend that much resources on size alone; they tended to focus more on finer craftsmanship, or their work was primarily functional rather than monolithic. It's not a matter of "couldn't", but just "didn't, because it's nuts".

[Donald Hellscream]

surely if there had been more advanced civilizations then what we are now we would have found traces of said civilization, now there is a possibility that they were more advanced than we may have thought for the time period but I don't believe there has ever been a more advanced civilization than the current one.

[Kraenen]

History was written by white people, of course it's wrong.

[Fascinate]

They were built ridiculously high because pharaohs were in a constant state of one-upsmanship with prior pharaohs, and each needed their tomb to be bigger and more fantastic than the last.

Subsequent cultures just never had the same relatively insane need to spend that much resources on size alone; they tended to focus more on finer craftsmanship, or their work was primarily functional rather than monolithic. It's not a matter of "couldn't", but just "didn't, because it's nuts".

That logic does not add up to me. Sure i could see 200, 300, 800 years sure but 3,800?????? Again endus, i am not entirely sure you actually are able to internally compute these time periods.

[Donald Hellscream]

Please try and keep perspective people. The pyramids were the tallest structure on the planet for THREE THOUSAND EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS. 3,800. I dont doubt for a second fart jokes have been happening that long, but how do you explain to me above.

Dick measuring contest, the pyramids were a dick measuring contest. Also its not like the pyramids were made out of granite, as far as stones, the ones used were fairly "soft" which meant that working them with tools wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility.

[Deleted]

It isn't some mystical forgotten technique involving powers beyond science, or something.

Actually Endus, this is true. Things like Damascus steel are near mythological because they managed to develop carbon nanotubing without most modern means.

[Endus]

My bad i had the names mistaken, puma punku was the one with machined-like holes, which also need explaining.

Holes are pretty darned easy to make in stone like that. You just need grit, a rotating "drill", and time. You can find these occurring naturally near waterfalls, for that matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-cut_basin

You say "machined", and that's just incorrect.

Also, check this:
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/top50stones.htm

And? All this shows is that making stuff out of big stones was widespread.

[Fascinate]

Dick measuring contest, the pyramids were a dick measuring contest. Also its not like the pyramids were made out of granite, as far as stones, the ones used were fairly "soft" which meant that working them with tools wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility.

That does not add up either, someone else would have wanted to build a bigger dick in that massive time spance.

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Holes are pretty darned easy to make in stone like that. You just need grit, a rotating "drill", and time. You can find these occurring naturally near waterfalls, for that matter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-cut_basin

You say "machined", and that's just incorrect.



And? All this shows is that making stuff out of big stones was widespread.

The machined comment is what i came up with on my own just by seeing pictures of them. I have worked at machine shops in my 20's and those holes are NOT done by hand.

As for the stones, id love to see how you would move a 1300 tonne stone even today my dude. Sure it probably can be done, but you would have to call in an industriual sized crane to accomplish it.

[Endus]

That logic does not add up to me. Sure i could see 200, 300, 800 years sure but 3,800?????? Again endus, i am not entirely sure you actually are able to internally compute these time periods.

You're literally saying that you can't internally compute them. You're projecting your own confusion, not making an argument or any kind of point about my statements.

Actually Endus, this is true. Things like Damascus steel are near mythological because they managed to develop carbon nanotubing without most modern means.

They used to be. We figured it out; http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

No magic. Just metallurgy.

[Dezerte]

That does not add up either, someone else would have wanted to build a bigger dick in that massive time spance.

There was one pharaoh at a time.

[Deleted]

That does not add up either, someone else would have wanted to build a bigger dick in that massive time spance.

Well, you have to remember the geopolitical climate. But yes, the Greeks did. The Colossus of Rhodes was more impressive than anything the Egyptians made and it was paraded at the busiest greek port as you entered.

The 7 hills of Rome and their massive buildings would have been the same. The Issue is Europeans are very fond of change, while Egyptians have the most unique ability to quash any change in their culture, they have been doing so for about 3,000 years.

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They used to be. We figured it out; http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html
No magic. Just metallurgy.

To have such an inate level of Metallurgy borders upon the superhuman. They didn't have Radon Microscopes, Acidic baths and not even alot of Iron to go around, yet they still made steelworking that baffled us for centuries and has pushed our ideas further.

[Endus]

The machined comment is what i came up with on my own just by seeing pictures of them. I have worked at machine shops in my 20's and those holes are NOT done by hand.

Well, you're wrong. And you have absolutely no argument to present, either. Because "they don't look hand-crafted to ME" isn't an argument.

As for the stones, id love to see how you would move a 1300 tonne stone even today my dude. Sure it probably can be done, but you would have to call in an industriual sized crane to accomplish it.

And? There are plenty of methods for doing so. We've already linked some earlier. You don't need modern cranes, at all.

You're literally refusing to entertain the possibility that your invented fantasy just might be wrong. You're just refusing to look at facts that don't support your imaginary theory. That's not an argument.

[Fascinate]

You're literally saying that you can't internally compute them. You're projecting your own confusion, not making an argument or any kind of point about my statements.



They used to be. We figured it out; http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...even-9809.html

No magic. Just metallurgy.

Your "proof" of the pyramids being the tallest structure on earth for 3800 years are absurd, so no of course i didnt address them. The time period ALONE is enough to question why, what you try and come up with in your head makes no matter to me.

[Endus]

To have such an inate level of Metallurgy borders upon the superhuman. They didn't have Radon Microscopes, Acidic baths and not even alot of Iron to go around, yet they still made steelworking that baffled us for centuries and has pushed our ideas further.

Or it means someone stumbled on a method that worked really well, and they didn't really understand why, so it became mythologized. That's not an argument that it wasn't rooted in science.

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Your "proof" of the pyramids being the tallest structure on earth for 3800 years are absurd, so no of course i didnt address them. The time period ALONE is enough to question why, what you try and come up with in your head makes no matter to me.

Again, this isn't an argument. You're just projecting your own willful ignorance and refusing to accept any facts that don't fit your wild imagination.

[Deleted]

The machined comment is what i came up with on my own just by seeing pictures of them. I have worked at machine shops in my 20's and those holes are NOT done by hand.

Yes, they were.

I think this needs to be brought up that humanity as a physical species has grown weaker and more impatient alongside our technology. A man who takes 2 hours drilling a hole in granite today with a heavy duty diamond tipped drill would have been a man who takes 2 full days drilling with water, grit and a simple rope pump drill.

The mechanics are the same, the time length is not.

[Fascinate]

I havent even touched on what i think to be true since i got my infraction endus, i am simply talking nuts and bolts here and the how's/if's of it all.

[Deleted]

Or it means someone stumbled on a method that worked really well, and they didn't really understand why, so it became mythologized. That's not an argument that it wasn't rooted in science.

That's not really science those, Technology and skill =/= science and I think this is what needs to be taught more.

[Biggles Worth]

Even if you can prove history is "wrong" most people in the world (from who I've encountered) will ignore your factual statements because it's not current teachings in a book or seen on television. A lot of peoples perception if they have any are so skewed it's like they have tunnel vision and don't see out of their visual range.