[Balance] Slip's Boomkin Theorycrafting (7.2.5+)

[Myztikrice]

Aren't you still casting a fair number of solar wraths to generate ap in aoe?

[Slippykins]

Aren't you still casting a fair number of solar wraths to generate ap in aoe?

The sim is pure cleave, so it wont cast Solar Wrath for 2+ targets (due to APL prioritising LS). Since SW will do much less damage than LS in AoE (targets will be spread by assumption), the DSotM relic can be thought of as an upperbound for the SW relic (which is 0.42%).

[Glurp]

I have ED and Oneths and get these results when simming for single target. I know Mastery got a buff in 7.1.5 and Oneths gives it more value too, but surely this is wrong?

[Slippykins]

I have ED and Oneths and get these results when simming for single target. I know Mastery got a buff in 7.1.5 and Oneths gives it more value too, but surely this is wrong?

Yeah that definitely sounds out of line -- what were your simming parameters (fight length, fight style, targets, movement, talent build)?

[Glurp]

Yeah that definitely sounds out of line -- what were your simming parameters (fight length, fight style, targets, movement, talent build)?

300 sec no variance - patchwerk - no movement - 1 target - 3333233

[Sinin]

Great thread! I will be bookmarking

[Slippykins]

300 sec no variance - patchwerk - no movement - 1 target - 3333233

So here's my own sim results, where I have ED and OI equipped -- https://puu.sh/tRDfU/4f7999aeab.png

Seems to be similar to yours, but haste is at the top instead of third. I have a bucketload of int and not much haste though, which could explain the variance in results.

- - - Updated - - -

Great thread! I will be bookmarking

Glad you liked it!

[Myztikrice]

What is the ilvl cutoff when deciding to go for 2x SW with ED? I'm getting some juicy titanforged pieces but they're all crit/mastery

[Slippykins]

What is the ilvl cutoff when deciding to go for 2x SW with ED? I'm getting some juicy titanforged pieces but they're all crit/mastery

Hard to answer, because it really depends on the trade-off between ST and cleave DPS. I would say it takes a significant ilvl bump to justify ilvl over 2xSW breakpoint for ED in ST, but a much lower gap when you think about most of the cleave fights in NH (with a much lower proportion of ST than cleave). Since sims don't do hybrid fights, I would say go with the ilvl if it's high enough (10 ilvls on a piece) as that will mostly offset the loss from no 2xSW breakpoint for ST and will definitely enhance your cleave DPS.

[PowerGamez]

Yeah, I'm at this point too and need to do some testing. I still think I'm better off hanging onto the 30% haste break point though.

I'm at 29.5% haste and 890 ilvl. With 1 stack of metronome (~75% uptime) I can fit 2x SW otherwise I'll LS if I'm ever caught out without the buff.

If I swap out all my pieces in favor of higher ilvl pieces I can jump up to 894 ilvl but only 20% haste. I really need to get a decent 880+ int/haste stat stick as I'm using an 895 Metronome and 860 Padawasen's Charm at the moment. Maybe Jim will be nice to me next week and i'll get a decent arcano.

[Slippykins]

Yeah, I'm at this point too and need to do some testing. I still think I'm better off hanging onto the 30% haste break point though.

I'm at 29.5% haste and 890 ilvl. With 1 stack of metronome (~75% uptime) I can fit 2x SW otherwise I'll LS if I'm ever caught out without the buff.

If I swap out all my pieces in favor of higher ilvl pieces I can jump up to 894 ilvl but only 20% haste. I really need to get a decent 880+ int/haste stat stick as I'm using an 895 Metronome and 860 Padawasen's Charm at the moment. Maybe Jim will be nice to me next week and i'll get a decent arcano.

If you hit the 2x SW breakpoint with only 1 stack of Metronome, it's highly likely that the uptime on 1 or 2 stacks will diminish any benefit from having the breakpoint "naturally". Arcanocrystal is definitely something to shoot for next week though.

[Deleted]

Wondering what you guys would think the my 'best allrounder' set up is. I have all three of the legendaries(lucky I know) DM, OE and IFE. As I understand it single target would be DM+IFE(Inc,BotA,NB). But I'm unsure of what combo would be best for full AOE and then the aforementioned 'best allrounder'. I dont have the 2pc or 4pc yet also. I sit around 30% haste, 60% mastery if that helps.

[Miraclous]

I've had some problems with the ED part of the simcraft APL. Today I had the time take a good look at it and I did.
All sims were done using (roughly) my current gear.
I gained about 13k dps on singletarget and 10k on 2 target using singletarget talents. This might not seem like too much (<2% of total damage), but it is a doubling of the value of the ED rotation compared to the standard non-ED rotation.

Even larger gains were made (~40k) on Full AoE build and Starlord AoE build compared to the previous ED APL. This is where I found most of my problems with the previous APL, because using the previous APL you actually lost damage using the ED rotation over the normal rotation. On 2-target fights, AoE builds will now also surgeweave better, but it's still a major dps loss compared to starfalling.

All data is posted in this spreadsheet: Right here. This is including the links below and my Simcraft setup.
The sheet also has another page I use for some haste calculations, and can be used by anyone.
My new APL can be found here: http://pastebin.com/bFpYbGfW
Comments/insights on why I made certain changes can be found here: http://pastebin.com/XqncRSz5

Most interesting results playstyle wise:
When not using BotA; refreshing dots that are <11s remaining before starting a Surgeweave nets ~800 dps.
Surgeweave in simcraft is now basically:
1) Don't cast if it takes you over 100 AP;
2) Don't waste empowerments;
3) Fit in half moon and full moon where possible **, don't use new moon while surgeweaving;
4) LS/SW weave > SW/SW and LS alternating weave > SW > LS.

**I literally as I was typing this, was thinking: Hold on a second, I never even tried swapping Moon around after the beginning of simming. Minor gains of max 500dps can be made by swapping those around to prio spending empowerments over using Moon :'(



The main conclusion I draw from all this, is that using ED is a whole lot of work with a payoff of maximum 5% more dps (though I simmed without Tier or 11k haste BP which will help a bit). However, every bit of movement or add spawns or whatever completely screws up surgeweaving, making actual gain in raids significantly less still.

[Slippykins]

I've had some problems with the ED part of the simcraft APL. Today I had the time take a good look at it and I did.
All sims were done using (roughly) my current gear.
I gained about 13k dps on singletarget and 10k on 2 target using singletarget talents. This might not seem like too much (<2% of total damage), but it is a doubling of the value of the ED rotation compared to the standard non-ED rotation.

Even larger gains were made (~40k) on Full AoE build and Starlord AoE build compared to the previous ED APL. This is where I found most of my problems with the previous APL, because using the previous APL you actually lost damage using the ED rotation over the normal rotation. On 2-target fights, AoE builds will now also surgeweave better, but it's still a major dps loss compared to starfalling.

All data is posted in this spreadsheet: Right here. This is including the links below and my Simcraft setup.
The sheet also has another page I use for some haste calculations, and can be used by anyone.
My new APL can be found here: http://pastebin.com/bFpYbGfW
Comments/insights on why I made certain changes can be found here: http://pastebin.com/XqncRSz5

Most interesting results playstyle wise:
When not using BotA; refreshing dots that are <11s remaining before starting a Surgeweave nets ~800 dps.
Surgeweave in simcraft is now basically:
1) Don't cast if it takes you over 100 AP;
2) Don't waste empowerments;
3) Fit in half moon and full moon where possible **, don't use new moon while surgeweaving;
4) LS/SW weave > SW/SW and LS alternating weave > SW > LS.

**I literally as I was typing this, was thinking: Hold on a second, I never even tried swapping Moon around after the beginning of simming. Minor gains of max 500dps can be made by swapping those around to prio spending empowerments over using Moon :'(



The main conclusion I draw from all this, is that using ED is a whole lot of work with a payoff of maximum 5% more dps (though I simmed without Tier or 11k haste BP which will help a bit). However, every bit of movement or add spawns or whatever completely screws up surgeweaving, making actual gain in raids significantly less still.

I think this is a healthy revision for the APL! Looks good. If you want to discuss the changes further, I would talk to Jundarer in the Druid discord, as he authored the current ED APL used in simc.

Otherwise, if you're happy with the changes I would submit a ticket on simc to get it updated for the next push.

From my tests, I get either a very marginal DPS increase (https://puu.sh/tXEml/deb10087a8.png) or no increase at all (https://puu.sh/tXEuU/778c0562f7.png). I think the APL will function similarly in some scenarios.

[Slippykins]

Update: tidied up the main post, and will have a look at alternative simulation/analysis methods to examine the benefit of the Lady and the Child legendary.

[Nijurez]

Hey slippy, wondered if you could sim my character. I feel like I could be doing more damage, but as far as most things are concerned (the standard stuff like dot uptime, empowerments, and not wasting AsP) I feel I am on track wondered If I could get some sims on ST and Cleave based fights. Zeru-Chromaggus. I dont know what im doing on sims but I feel like when I do them I am unsure if im doing them correctly. Thanks.

EDIT:Us Server
EDIT 2: I think it is my low ilvl weapon/Relics and lack of Artifact levels.

[Slippykins]

Hey slippy, wondered if you could sim my character. I feel like I could be doing more damage, but as far as most things are concerned (the standard stuff like dot uptime, empowerments, and not wasting AsP) I feel I am on track wondered If I could get some sims on ST and Cleave based fights. Zeru-Chromaggus. I dont know what im doing on sims but I feel like when I do them I am unsure if im doing them correctly. Thanks.

EDIT:Us Server
EDIT 2: I think it is my low ilvl weapon/Relics and lack of Artifact levels.

Hey bud!

So here's the results for your ST sim, with scale factors included:



What this shows is that your ilvl is definitely holding you back. The marginal DPS contribution of a secondary stat is quite low compared to a geared heroic/mythic raider of around 17 DPS per point, and intellect is much higher than all else. This suggests that your ilvl is definitely a large factor in your observed DPS.

Here's cleave (3 targets):



Nothing really to say here, but the ilvl argument will still hold.

[silkworm]

Thanks Slippykins.

Been playing resto druid and generally healers since vanilla. Raided quite hardcore on TBC and Cataclysm. Now playing casual and do raids if we can come up with people or simply add a few pugs. But with this content healers have become redundant. Self heal/absorb abilites of tanks allow people to run with fewer healers on normal and heroic modes. Thats what I have the time for. So I had to do some real dps, not potato dotting and shooting a beam here and there while the raid picked up the slack.

And here in a matter of days, thanks to this thread alone I'm able to do 400-450 k dps. Still room to improve but better than 250k-ish. Well just by dotting you get 100k anyways.

Just got an account here and wanted to tell you thanks and of course honorable mention goes to Gebuz and others helpful people here.

[Nijurez]

Thank you so much slippy, helps tremendously!

[NightZero88]

I guess we can ask for simming help here so I guess I'll give it a shot. I feel like I'm probably under performing for my ilevel and gear. I have ED, OI and IFE. I've been using ED/IFE and basically I get to 100 energy then a SS/LS/SS/LS/SS/LS..etc until I can't SS again then SW to get back up to full energy while keeping dots up. I average around 350-400k on normal NH bosses although my fellow balance druid who has no legendaries seems to keep up with me or surpass me with worse gear. I believe he's using the memekin AoE build and I'm specced more for single target and generally don't swap talents (we don't really need it). I feel even on single target fights he's not that far below me although I believe he is certainly a better player than I am.

Here's my char: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Beakerz/simple

On a separate subject I got the erratic metronome (870 warforged) and am curious if I should use it over my swarming plaguehive (870). My issue is the plaguehive gives me about 1400 haste which sits me at 30% which from my understanding was what you were aiming for with ED.