Why can't bolvar not just order all of scourge to kill themselves

[Aucald]

Completely unrelated, Aucald did you move to PA? I thought you were in Canada!

I moved to PA about 13 years ago, but I never lived in Canada to begin with. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?

[Rafoel]

Because, ultimately the Helm is Ner'zhul and The Scourge. I know it was retconned somewhat, but I remember too well that the original description was that Ner'zhul's soul was ripped apart and forged as the helm, not just a soul "simply" bound into the helm.

Yeah, because then the question appears - if its the Helm that grants person a Lich King's powers, how did Ner'zhul use it? He didn't have a body.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yeah, because then the question appears - if its the Helm that grants person a Lich King's powers, how did Ner'zhul use it? He didn't have a body.

his soul was bound to the armor.

[Zulkhan]

No, i ignore them when we get to the third or fourth instance of them repeating the same debunked, misproven headcanon 'facts' over and over again without aknowledging that theyve been proven wrong by actual in-game and in-canon facts.

The moment they hit 'nuh-uh!' as their primary argument, theyve proven themselves not worth conversing with. If your 'argument' and 'facts' wouldnt make it out of a middle school debate class, ive no use for you.

If there's someone who brings quotes, citations and canon facts of all people here that's definitely Aquamonkey. And honestly if there's one who ultimately got his arguments debunked that's you, quite blatantly I would say. Which means your "I have valid reasons to ignore people" argument don't sell, you simply sound mad because the people you're arguing with aren't dancing at your tune.

[Zandalariprelate]

Because, ultimately the Helm is Ner'zhul and The Scourge. I know it was retconned somewhat, but I remember too well that the original description was that Ner'zhul's soul was ripped apart and forged as the helm, not just a soul "simply" bound into the helm.

Right now there are a lot of forces emerging from the slumber like n'zoth and the legion putting everything they had in this invasion, i think one of them is corrupting or had already corrupted bolvar and trying to create havoc among the mortals using the death knights and the plage once more

[Deleted]

Right now there are a lot of forces emerging from the slumber like n'zoth and the legion putting everything they had in this invasion, i think one of them is corrupting or had already corrupted bolvar and trying to create havoc among the mortals using the death knights and the plage once more

Yeah you may be right. If it's not the helm alone twisting Bolvar I'm betting on Kelthuzad.

[Aucald]

I've always assumed that Ner'zhul was turned into an enhanced Revenant by Kil'jaeden - an incorporeal spirits barded with armor including the Helm of Domination (an artifact empowered to control the undead he would go on to create) and with Frostmourne to increase his powers. Essentially not too far from one of these guys:



Ner'zhul was sealed into the cask of Nether ice to limit his mobility and further underscore his existence as a mere tool of the Legion's domination of Azeroth. Fortunately (for him at least) Ner'zhul was able to use Frostmourne to compromise his prison and eventually lure a host back to Icecrown to go on to possess, breaking free of the Legion's designs for the Lich King.

[Maletalana]

I moved to PA about 13 years ago, but I never lived in Canada to begin with. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?

Hmm, I must be, never mind!


Endus. I was confusing you with Endus for some reason

[pateuvasiliu]

If Blizzard really wanted that situation to make sense, there wouldn't "need" to be a Lich King in the first place. As people have been complaining about since 3.3: Almost every quest line that involves Scourge leads to a Quest that can be summarized as "kill their commanders, without direction they're much less of a threat" but for some reason after destroying nearly all the Scourge across all of the surface of Northrend all the way to and into ICC and occupying the friggin content suddenly... there "needs to be someone holding them back."

...Right. Someone check Uther's Ghost and see if that was actually Kil'jaeden.

I think it was actually Ner'zhul.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...anipulating-us

[Magnagarde]

First of all, being fel tainted (green-skinned) does not make you a "fel orc". Secondly, the orcs are the Horde; all the other races that joined later simply widened that core, let alone most of those "proudly accepted" orcs belong to Thrall's generation rather than Grom's or Orgrim's.

It means they were fel tainted at one time and served the Legion. They're marked for the rest of their lives. If the Horde prides itself on these orcs despite their past antics and willingly(keyword) proclaiming allegiance to the demons, then the Alliance should proudly readmit members of the Scarlet Crusade which were decieved(keyword) by another servant of the Burning Legion.

One alligned themselves willingly with the demons in order to have more power to conquer another world, while the other got decieved by a dreadlord who made use of their hopes of defending their lives and beating back the undead. The difference in motive is quite clear and the Alliance should have no doubt about readmitting these into their ranks.

Not saying these orcs are antagonists now, but if one faction can admit them into their ranks, why wouldn't the other admit the Scarlet Crusaders.

[Friendlyimmolation]

It means they were fel tainted at one time and served the Legion. They're marked for the rest of their lives. If the Horde prides itself on these orcs despite their past antics and willingly(keyword) proclaiming allegiance to the demons, then the Alliance should proudly readmit members of the Scarlet Crusade which were decieved(keyword) by another servant of the Burning Legion.

One alligned themselves willingly with the demons in order to have more power to conquer another world, while the other got decieved by a dreadlord who made use of their hopes of defending their lives and beating back the undead. The difference in motive is quite clear and the Alliance should have no doubt about readmitting these into their ranks.

Not saying these orcs are antagonists now, but if one faction can admit them into their ranks, why wouldn't the other admit the Scarlet Crusaders.

Orcs didnt take the blood to conquer another world. And the whole orcs in horde =/= Scarlets joining the Alliance. The crusade made it known they did not like anyone and went from defending people to killing everyone else and then trying to kill the forsaken, and it bit them in the ass.

[Magnagarde]

Orcs didnt take the blood to conquer another world. And the whole orcs in horde =/= Scarlets joining the Alliance. The crusade made it known they did not like anyone and went from defending people to killing everyone else and then trying to kill the forsaken, and it bit them in the ass.

They went from defending people to killing everyone because of Balnazzar's influence.

No, the orcs consumed blood to conquer everything that comes into their path. One among those things was soon to be Azeroth. First on the list were the harmless draenei.

If these are part of the Horde now, then the surviving Scarlet Crusaders should be part of the Alliance.

[Deleted]

...Right. Someone check Uther's Ghost and see if that was actually Kil'jaeden.

That would be the greatest plot twist since Hodor.

[Friendlyimmolation]

They went from defending people to killing everyone because of Balnazzar's influence.

No, the orcs consumed blood to conquer everything that comes into their path. One among those things was soon to be Azeroth. First on the list were the harmless draenei.

If these are part of the Horde now, then the surviving Scarlet Crusaders should be part of the Alliance.

Orcs knew nothing of azeroth when drinking the blood.


Not to mention there are no surviving scarlets.

I guess if they retconned it and brought more inn they could join the Alliance. But they wouldn't be scarlets anymore.

[Zulkhan]

It means they were fel tainted at one time and served the Legion. They're marked for the rest of their lives.

How is that comparable to the Scarlet Crusaders? The Crusaders are tainted by nothing but their own actions and affiliation with an organization that pursued atrocities against even their own people as consequence of their increasing paranoia. The fel taint on the other hand is ereditary and affects even those who never directly dealt with demons ever or people that never even hurt a bunny in his/her life. But all Scarlet Crusaders at some point were participant of its leadership's orders. The guy who sends Alliance players to the Monastery is someone who readily abandoned the Crusade when he realized how mad they became; typical crusader who thought all undead needed to be purged from Azeroth (Scourge or Forsaken mattered not) but simply couldn't bear the acts the crusaders started to commit on innocent people. Clearly those who stayed felt otherwise.

Of course there are several Orc veterans in the Horde that share a similar background. Saurfang is one of them. Then again, the atrocities commited by the orcs in the past are rather disconnected and impersonal with the other Horde races (the Forsaken could be the only exception but they were twisted way too much by the Plague to emotionally relate with their human past) where news of what the Crusaders did in the Plaguelands towards innocent people of Lordaeron could be...quite disturbing for other humans, like those of Stormwind.

If the Horde prides itself on these orcs despite their past antics and willingly(keyword) proclaiming allegiance to the demons, then the Alliance should proudly readmit members of the Scarlet Crusade which were decieved(keyword) by another servant of the Burning Legion.

One alligned themselves willingly with the demons in order to have more power to conquer another world, while the other got decieved by a dreadlord who made use of their hopes of defending their lives and beating back the undead.

Nope, both were equally deceived. If anything Kil'jaeden's deceiving of the orcs have been way more planned and subtle, where Balnazzar brutally murdered the Crusade's leader and started giving orders himself to the whole Crusade, masked by nothing but Dathrohan's empty vestiges.

The difference in motive is quite clear

Actions speak louder than motivations. Orcs may have conquered foreign nations and slain foreign people but the Crusaders slaughtered and tortured their own people out of deranged paranoia. As much as you could sympathize with their motives or circumstances, their actions were ultimately even more horrific than the orcs', especially from a random human's perspective. Knowing once-paladins of the Silver Hand, the once-staunch protectors of the Alliance and humanity, went down such a dark path would definitely disturb humans more compared to some brutish orcs doing the same things.

Not saying these orcs are antagonists now, but if one faction can admit them into their ranks, why wouldn't the other admit the Scarlet Crusaders.

It's really hard to compare the situations. In the latter's case is the Alliance that have to either accept or deny the entry. In the Horde's case are the orcs themselves that accept new races in their own organization. Their only chances are either leaving or not join at all, where the Alliance has only to say a comfortable "no" and ignore them with ease.

All of this said, my arguing here isn't meant to utterly deny the possibility of ex-Scarlet Crusaders joining the Alliance if they undergo to some spiritual reformation of sort by the Alliance's own Church of Light. However, their situation can't be compared to the one of the Orcs in regards of the Horde, which is the point of everything I wrote above.

[anaxie]

Orcs didnt take the blood to conquer another world. And the whole orcs in horde =/= Scarlets joining the Alliance. The crusade made it known they did not like anyone and went from defending people to killing everyone else and then trying to kill the forsaken, and it bit them in the ass.

Because that is how Balnazzar wanted it

[Kagthul]

If there's someone who brings quotes, citations and canon facts of all people here that's definitely Aquamonkey. And honestly if there's one who ultimately got his arguments debunked that's you, quite blatantly I would say. Which means your "I have valid reasons to ignore people" argument don't sell, you simply sound mad because the people you're arguing with aren't dancing at your tune.

Ill go ahead and wait for you to point out something that he 'debunked'.

Dont worry, ive got plenty of time. youll need it.

[anaxie]

They went from defending people to killing everyone because of Balnazzar's influence.

No, the orcs consumed blood to conquer everything that comes into their path. One among those things was soon to be Azeroth. First on the list were the harmless draenei.

If these are part of the Horde now, then the surviving Scarlet Crusaders should be part of the Alliance.

It's important for people to also not neglect WHO Balnazzar was pretending to be

He was Saiden Dothrohan one of the FIRST FOUR PALADINS

His other 3 brothers was UTHER, TURALYON, AND TIRION

Unfortunately I believe VERY VERY few people actually educate themselves on this part.

The Crusade orignally was well intended and it's purpose became twisted under Balnazars influence.

Bridgett Abbendis, Whitemane, Alexandros Morgraine, Fairbanks, Saiden (alive). The Crusade was orignally a very strong very holy order. THe split between the dawn and the scarlets happened after Balnazzar killed Saiden.

[Zulkhan]

Ill go ahead and wait for you to point out something that he 'debunked'.

Dont worry, ive got plenty of time. youll need it.

You definitely needed time to reply. Guess you were trying to come up with something making you sound smart. The result ain't great, unfortunately.

What I have to point out? He tore all your points apart just after you fled into your safety "I ignore people I don't like" room. You've lost. Maybe because you grasped on straws to begin with.

It's important for people to also not neglect WHO Balnazzar was pretending to be

Yeah but he was still Balnazzar on the end of the day. As manipulative a Dreadlord can be, you should be able to realize the blatant shift of character. The Crusaders were just dumb (I would say convenientely dumb) as much as Ner'zhul who couldn't realize Rulkhan was actually Kil'jaeden in disguise.

[anaxie]

You definitely needed time to reply. Guess you were trying to come up with something making you sound smart. The result ain't great, unfortunately.

What I have to point out? He tore all your points apart just after you fled into your safety "I ignore people I don't like" room. You've lost. Maybe because you grasped on straws to begin with.



Yeah but he was still Balnazzar on the end of the day. As manipulative a Dreadlord can be, you should be able to realize the blatant shift of character. The Crusaders were just dumb (I would say convenientely dumb) as much as Ner'zhul who couldn't realize Rulkhan was actually Kil'jaeden in disguise.

Dreadlords hasn't done what Balnazzar did before that point.