1009 Maw of Souls runs needed to max out Artifact in 7.2

[KaPe]

No, what usually happens is those same people will blame Blizzard anyway for posting the 'wrong' numbers.

And others will keep replying with "it's just alpha, beta, ptr, relax". It's hard to blame people considering that plenty of feedback is ignored and then we get huge hotfix buffs/nerfs couple days after patch hits. Better to complain and be proven wrong than have Blizzard implement something they'll eventually admit was broken - except they'll do that few patches later.

[Nero Stormchester]

Just...IDK what to even say to such a ignorant comment like this. You and people like you probably play like an hour a day and thats fine, you can be a casual nobody that doesnt care about things. But some of us play to be actually GOOD at the game and competitive.

Newsflash , you can be good without maxing out the artifact . If you play in the 75th percentile or above , and have some decent gear , no one is gonna care if your artifact is 45 or 54 points - you still gonna be good. The only place where this does matter - is in guilds like Exorsus or Method.

[FAILoZOFF]

Artifact power is like a long boring road with a nice maxed out weapon at the end as your reward. Now just when i'm coming to the end and i can stop farming the shit i see something past the end. It's road workers adding more boring fucking road.

this was brilliant expression of how I feel about whole expansion
ill rather quit this sht than grind my teeths out off on it

[Deleted]

And AK comes to you every few days... encouraging you pace your game play. AK + AP together is a good balanced approach.

IT IS FOR A SINGLE SPECC ON A SINGLE CHARACTER. It is build entirely around playing a single character with a single specc. You seem to be exactly that person, so you find it to be balanced and okay. Because you dont mind playing nothing but that one character and specc.

[Toastyame]

Inb4 instead of buffing long dungeons they nerf short dungeons, so despite the change in artifact power we still need roughly 1000 maws cause math.

Can't wait.

[Deleted]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ping_progress/

Whoop Whoop. AP power and the new announcements are taking their toll even on high level players. If they do indeed introduce more levels to PvP I would expect to see more people drop out there. All AP does right now, is pigeonhole people into a single character with a single specc.

[KaPe]

All AP does right now, is pigeonhole people into a single character with a single specc.

And according to some people, this is exactly what we wanted when we complained about "lack of content". Otherwise, bog standard arguments about "oh, it's only 0.001% doing that, *everyone else* absolutely loves that they have something to do and they don't mind that it's the exact same thing each day, every day, for months."

Recent blue announcements are *somewhat* promising, as is guaranteed AP from Nighthold, but it's just a start. I mean, guaranteed 3.75mln AP from killing bosses on all three difficulties sounds like a lot, but then again, by the time you're killing 10 bosses on mythic, you don't really need more AP. Plus it still takes more time than a dozen MoS, not to mention being harder and only doable once per reset.

Besides, knowing Blizzard, they'll introduce something really stupid that will make up for the reduced grind.

[RobertMugabe]

The word FORCED or FORCED CONTENT should be MMOC's word of the year.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't really care. The AK system is designed to last the entire expansion for folks who approach it with some level of sanity, hence the diminishing returns as you go higher. If folks really want to subject themselves to 1000 Maw of Terrible Camera Angles, they're more than welcome I suppose.

So you are saying, it is not intended that we max out everything in 1 day and complain the second day on MMOC that we're burn out and the game sucks?

[IceMan1763]

So you are saying, it is not intended that we max out everything in 1 day and complain the second day on MMOC that we're burn out and the game sucks?

Intended or not, if they did not want the Mythic race to involve racing to fill traits, then why was a reasonable cap not put in place? Why tune Mythic NH for 54 traits?

Would a cap drastically reduce the fun of casual players in some way?

[KaPe]

So you are saying, it is not intended that we max out everything in 1 day and complain the second day on MMOC that we're burn out and the game sucks?

I strongly suggest you look up the difference between "1 day" and "many months". Even maxing AK will take 75 days. But yeah, sure, keep using that strawman.

[sponge5307]

If you use the term "forced", then you already lost any argument you were trying to make.
Do blizzard set entry requirements based on your artifact progression ?
No, players do.

Blizzard certainly did. Mythic NH is around players having 54 traits. If this is true than the next mythic raid is base around people having max traits as well.

- - - Updated - - -

That's because the game isn't designed around people farming M+ non stop for AP. They specifically nerfed AP from M+ to discourage people from doing exactly that. The system is also not designed around anyone quickly grinding out AP to max out their weapons. The Artifact system is intended to last the entire expansion, they didn't even intend anyone to already be maxed out at 54.

From what it looks like, they are setting up the Artifact changes in 7.2 to carry over into 7.3. So they don't have to create even more abilities that throw balance all out of whack. At most we may see more points become available for the existing abilities. All of that would fit into the timeline based on the necessary AP required to completely max out our weapons. Some of the above average players would be getting close once 7.3 hits, it would get extended a bit with a few additional points, with the weapons for most people being completed in the middle of that final tier.

LOL don't bullshit yourself. I don't play much at all. Recently started playing DH as my main and in a little over 3 weeks both my weapons is at 24 traits already and I think my dps weapon have so far 28 tarits. That's playing pretty casual like 1 to 2 hours a day.

Also in higher level mythics + and mythic raids you need to have max traits as I said earlier mythic raid is bass around players having max traits.

[melodramocracy]

I strongly suggest you look up the difference between "1 day" and "many months". Even maxing AK will take 75 days. But yeah, sure, keep using that strawman.

Many months is the intent here. It seems that some folks are missing this key point.

[Toastyame]

Blizzard certainly did. Mythic NH is around players having 54 traits. If this is true then the next mythic raid is base around people having max traits as well.

Mythic EN was for players to have 2, maybe 3 goldens, and ToV around 35, something easily achieveable as AK was still being earned. Only last bosses in NH, which most guilds won't see for another month, are scaled for 54 and players will easily outgear them from the amount of reclears/900 caches they earn. Outside of 35, the traits past that are minimal, at best. Yes, having a free 4% damage over someone 8 levels lower than you is thrilling, but that can easily be made up with better play, legendary RNG, tier and trinkets.

I doubt ToS will have ridiculous prerequisites, Argus probably.

Why jump to conclusions. It doesn't do anybody any good and only creates speculation and rumors based on nothing.

[KaPe]

Many months is the intent here. It seems that some folks are missing this key point.

And some other folks are missing the key point that characters have more than a single spec. Or more than a single character.

[IceMan1763]

And some other folks are missing the key point that characters have more than a single spec. Or more than a single character.

Or a job. Or a lack of desire to pointlessly grind AP for 0.5% extra damage.

I quote from the best designer this game was ever blessed with (yes, I'm 100% serious, I think he was very underappreciated considering the morons we're now stuck with), GC:

"This is the big one, and the truth is it is ultimately correct. You will have fewer choices. But you will have more choices that *matter*. One of the important philosophies of game design is that interesting choices are fun. The word ‘interesting’ is key. Choosing between a talent that grants 10% damage and one that grants 5% damage, all else being equal, isn't interesting (unless perhaps you’re a superstar role-player). Choosing between a talent that grants you 5% haste or 5% crit might be interesting, but more than likely there is still a right answer (and like most of us, you'll probably just ask someone else what the answer is.) Choosing between a talent that grants you a root or a snare can be interesting. Which does more damage? Hard to say. Which is better? It depends on the situation."

Source:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...e-talent-trees

So, over 5 years ago the dev team decided that +x% talents weren't interesting and decided to go with less but more meaningful talent choices. Is it a hard extension to believe that grinding EACH SPEC for almost IDENTICAL types of talents ALL EXPANSION long would not be a fun addition to the game? Is it that hard to make that leap of thinking? Or does the current dev team think that GC was wrong? I would honestly pay $1000 to charity for Ion to attempt to answer that question.

[rhorle]

So, over 5 years ago the dev team decided that +x% talents weren't interesting and decided to go with less but more meaningful talent choices. Is it a hard extension to believe that grinding EACH SPEC for almost IDENTICAL types of talents ALL EXPANSION long would not be a fun addition to the game? Is it that hard to make that leap of thinking? Or does the current dev team think that GC was wrong? I would honestly pay $1000 to charity for Ion to attempt to answer that question.

The problem is how players are treating it. If they removed the +% trait, then wouldn't the AP grind be fine? Why not treat it like a bonus of something to do after you have maxed out the rest. This is even how Blizzard is treating it to a degree since they are resetting AP when they are adding a new tier of talents instead of forcing you to max out the +% trait before going for the new ones.

Everything they have done with Artifacts has not contradicted anything from your quote or point you are trying to make in this post.

[IceMan1763]

The problem is how players are treating it. If they removed the +% trait, then wouldn't the AP grind be fine? Why not treat it like a bonus of something to do after you have maxed out the rest. This is even how Blizzard is treating it to a degree since they are resetting AP when they are adding a new tier of talents instead of forcing you to max out the +% trait before going for the new ones.

Everything they have done with Artifacts has not contradicted anything from your quote or point you are trying to make in this post.

No, it would still completely suck, be pointless, and a lame attempt at sub retention if they removed the +x% traits. All of the traits are basically either +x% traits or skills which you should just get for being max level, not because you did a stupid extra pointless grind.

[Deleted]

Many months is the intent here. It seems that some folks are missing this key point.

The issue here is, they're not balancing this around multiple speccs much less multiple characters. Right now a lot of progress guilds, known ones are ending their progress raiding for good. Because it puts a lot of strain on people who HAVE to do this solely to be able to play.

If there was one character, with one specc the "many months" might be sensible. That is NOT the case at all. And AP power is not a "boon", it is merely having our characters/speccs gimped and being forced through a long and grueling grind to slowly ungimp them.

This approach is the one thing that feels fundamentally wrong with Legion. It extends to other parts of the game such as Legendaries and Professions. Where you are EXPECTED by the developers to have these things and content is build around having them. Professions are mentioned here less because they are needed but because they work in a similar fashion.

They are initially massively undertuned, the mat prices are horrendous and the products are mediocre to bad. You are forced to run through them to slowly get them up to speed. Then eventually invest a huge sum to hope for a random chance to get them to full production. Which is NOT an improvement, it is merely finally reaching the baseline every other expansion had them at.

It's like me selling you a bicycle, except it has no seat, no tires etc. Then you are forced to participate in various competitions to earn those missing parts, be lucky and find some lying around. At the end you did not achieve anything, you did not improve anything, you merely managed to FIX the bicycle that should have been working from the get go.

[rhorle]

No, it would still completely suck, be pointless, and a lame attempt at sub retention if they removed the +x% traits. All of the traits are basically either +x% traits or skills which you should just get for being max level, not because you did a stupid extra pointless grind.

If it is stupid and pointless why is it a problem that it takes a while? Why would it still suck even if it wouldn't be taking that long already to max out for all specs of a character. Using your same argument all gear upgrades might as well be baked into max level because it is a stupid extra pointless grind. It just further shows that it is how the players are treating it rather then the system contradicting going away from +% choices. Besides Artifacts are not meant to be a choice based system so your dev talk isn't even relevant.

[IceMan1763]

If it is stupid and pointless why is it a problem that it takes a while? Why would it still suck even if it wouldn't be taking that long already to max out for all specs of a character. Using your same argument all gear upgrades might as well be baked into max level because it is a stupid extra pointless grind. It just further shows that it is how the players are treating it rather then the system contradicting going away from +% choices. Besides Artifacts are not meant to be a choice based system so your dev talk isn't even relevant.

It's a problem because raids are now tuned around having a certain amount of Traits, so you can't avoid grinding them. Any semi serious progression guild requires a certain number of Traits. They system sucks period... it should not exist at all... don't know what your second sentence is getting at.

Gear upgrades from the actual bosses in the progression raids are quite different from an AP system that basically requires hours upon hours of OUTSIDE OF RAID GRINDING to have a CHANCE to beat the most difficult bosses in the raid. If you can't see that, you're seriously blind as hell.

It's relevant because the system is not exciting, just like those kind of talents weren't exciting as part of leveling. This is just more leveling at end game, but now for each spec instead of the whole class. Anyone who sees this system as anything other than an end game spec leveling system is blind or has their head stuck in the sand.

It's something no sane player would've ever asked for, but call it an "artifact weapon" and give it some cool skins and players like you defend it to the ends of the earth.