The Republican's All-Consuming Obsession With Tax Cuts For the Rich

[Gestopft]

Well, if business people have more money, chances are they will invest it. If middle class people have more money, chances are they will spend it. Both spur job creation, but the long term bet is on corporate tax reform to come out ahead.

Corporate profits are at record highs. Wealth concentration at the top is higher than it's been since the late 20's.

Businesses have money. Investors have money. It isn't trickling down because the middle and lower classes don't have enough demand to fuel job growth and investments. Instead, businesses are putting tons of money into stock buybacks. Adding more supply when we have a demand problem isn't going to fix the economy.

[Fugus]

It is a very illogical assumption, that the leading high-tech countries like the US, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan and others are all leading in spite of their economical systems and not because of it. "Voodoo Economics" brings a lot of other issues on the table, such as inequality, poor life standards for the lower classes, expensive healthcare and education - but you can't deny that it gives incredible positive results in some aspects.

People like to believe that there is only one "right" way to govern a state, and that that "right" way coincides with their political views - but it simply is not the reality.

It isn't illogical assumption, it is a very much logical one when you know how the tax system works as trickle down does nothing to help with funding R&D, creating jobs, or helping economically. It has no impact on R&D Funding as all that funding is tax deductible anyways so it won't be effected regardless of tax rate, has already been proven to have zero impact on job creation and economically has hurt us with decreased tax revenue and increased wealth gap.

It does nothing to help with poor life standards, does nothing for healthcare and does nothing for education and if anything makes those worse.

I am not talking about believing that there is only one way to govern, I was arguing that Voodoo Economics is not the right way to govern regardless of how many other options you have as it both in theory and in practice has done nothing but make things worse unless you are the ones running things.

Edit: AFK

[NED funded]

Trump puts tax cuts in for everybody and all wealth classes but with corporate tax loopholes closed off. The MSM focus only about the corporate tax cuts and associated buzz words.

Leftist millennials, already happily brainwashed that Trump is literally Hitler take the ball and run with it all the way. At least with age most of you guys will get more intelligent.


Trickle down does not really work in private enterprise. Trickle down works decently enough in publicly shared entities for obvious reasons. The tax cuts and threats of tariffs etc are working already so well in an insanely short amount of time, even while he was still elect companies were announcing 100b plus investments in America because Trump won. I doubt many people here have been involved in manufacturing industries but I have spent my whole career in it (semi retired this year now though), publicly owned entities always want growth and a larger market share above all else and with that comes job growth.

Of course the big issue is further job replacement of automation which further increases the expansion of the lower class and the decrease of the middle class which is poison to any first world country. Perhaps President Trump can impose regulations or penalties for massive automation after corporations received the single largest tax cuts in history as have all classes - especially lower class.

It does not seem right to punish companies for automating. Specially since we want them to automate in order to compete with lower wage countries.

[Machismo]

Oddly enough, I don't think most people realize how much they are taxed. They often overlook Social Security and Medicare withdrawals. They forget about sales taxes and property taxes. They don't think about things like vehicle registrations, cell phone bills, utility bills, and a half dozen other issues. They normally look at federal withholding, and sometimes state taxes. In the end, they fine themselves spending more than 35% of their income on taxes. The upper class should be taxed less, so should the middle class. I would much prefer all taxes be based on purchases, so that people see exactly what they are paying when they buy something.

[Bushtuckrman]

I can claim to have created the world on my website, doesn't make it true.

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The Democrats aren't the ones trying to implement policies that have been proven to repeatedly fail, sorry to burst your alternative reality bubble.

Then why have a negative disposition on it now for? He's been in office for 1 month and hasn't even got his full cabinet in yet. While I admit to always be susceptible of the promises of politicians, Trump at least is working on his in record time which should make at the very least, everybody who supports him to be optimistic about it so early on. I'd give it a couple years at the longest to wait and see if it is implemented.

[May90]

It isn't illogical assumption, it is a very much logical one when you know how the tax system works as trickle down does nothing to help with funding R&D, creating jobs, or helping economically. It has no impact on R&D Funding as all that funding is tax deductible anyways so it won't be effected regardless of tax rate, has already been proven to have zero impact on job creation and economically has hurt us with decreased tax revenue and increased wealth gap.

It does nothing to help with poor life standards, does nothing for healthcare and does nothing for education and if anything makes those worse.

I am not talking about believing that there is only one way to govern, I was arguing that Voodoo Economics is not the right way to govern regardless of how many other options you have as it both in theory and in practice has done nothing but make things worse unless you are the ones running things.

Edit: AFK

You act like "trickle down" is a full description of a system, it is just low taxes for the rich, and that's it, the system is described perfectly. You do realize that there are many nuances there? Such as, for example, tax breaks for charitable activities, antitrust laws, governmental investment support for various fields... It is not that the "evil 1%" gets everything and everyone else gets nothing, the economy doesn't work like this.

And no, I'm not buying the idea that the leading tech countries are leading despite their economical system, not because of it, especially since that system causing them to lead makes perfect sense, both from the economical point of view, and casual common sense. I get the objection that healthcare and education are incredibly inaccessible in the US, Singapore and other countries with similar systems - but that only characterizes an economy system in its entirety as long as accessibility of healthcare and education are the only two factors that affect people's quality of life. It is simply not true.

[Stormspellz]

Trump puts tax cuts in for everybody and all wealth classes but with corporate tax loopholes closed off. The MSM focus only about the corporate tax cuts and associated buzz words.

Leftist millennials, already happily brainwashed that Trump is literally Hitler take the ball and run with it all the way. At least with age most of you guys will get more intelligent.


Trickle down does not really work in private enterprise. Trickle down works decently enough in publicly shared entities for obvious reasons. The tax cuts and threats of tariffs etc are working already so well in an insanely short amount of time, even while he was still elect companies were announcing 100b plus investments in America because Trump won. I doubt many people here have been involved in manufacturing industries but I have spent my whole career in it (semi retired this year now though), publicly owned entities always want growth and a larger market share above all else and with that comes job growth.

Of course the big issue is further job replacement of automation which further increases the expansion of the lower class and the decrease of the middle class which is poison to any first world country. Perhaps President Trump can impose regulations or penalties for massive automation after corporations received the single largest tax cuts in history as have all classes - especially lower class.

where are these "tax cuts for everyone" because that hasn't happened from what i've seen, I do know he used EO to end tax break program for middle class mortgage holders

[Shadowferal]

Paul Ryan has been pushing a version of Tax Reform that really isn't going to get anywhere since his own party is against it.

[Draco-Onis]

Paul Ryan has been pushing a version of Tax Reform that really isn't going to get anywhere since his own party is against it.

Trump's tax plan is basically a copy and paste from Paul Ryan, tax cuts, privatizing medicare, medicaid and social security are the reasons Paul Ryan has become Trump's pet. If none of these bones get thrown his way the pet will turn on his master.

[Bushtuckrman]

It does not seem right to punish companies for automating. Specially since we want them to automate in order to compete with lower wage countries.

I agree but then regulations exist in western countries for a wide variety of restrictions on businesses. In the grand scheme, the priority of what is right for the nation outweighs what is right for either a private or publicly shared corporation. Automation which is being developed now is just too much for nations to handle.

For example here in Australia almost the entirety of income taxes collected goes solely into welfare subsidies with every single stat and study showing it will only become expotantionaly worse with current trends. Large companies in Australia have been aggressively renegotiating Enterprise Bargaining Agreements to cut hourly wages and entitlements such as weekend penalty rates right down, bring in new generation automation to reduce unskilled labour among other cost saving pushes like sourcing cheapest possible raw materials which puts equal strain onto those companies. This in turn has only just now started to ring alarm bells in our government because income tax amounts has stalled due to lower wages and higher welfare recipients. Meaning that the government is not bringing in as much money as what has been budgeted for and they dig the nation into a crux of wasteful expenditure which the government can no longer sustain. Its a great example which you can witness right now on how private and publicly owned companies can break a nation.

Speaking of witnessing things right now, the same can be said of many western European countries who have taken in unsustainable amounts of refugees. Watch as they break their working class with higher taxes and restrictions which in turn will only break their nations with a substantially increased lower class and shrinking middle class in which socialist governments cannot sustain their welfare and related programs any longer and anything they try to keep it going will only break the working middle class and compound the lower class more.

[Stormspellz]

Then why have a negative disposition on it now for? He's been in office for 1 month and hasn't even got his full cabinet in yet. While I admit to always be susceptible of the promises of politicians, Trump at least is working on his in record time which should make at the very least, everybody who supports him to be optimistic about it so early on. I'd give it a couple years at the longest to wait and see if it is implemented.

He's signed 4 laws so far: deregulation on oil companies accounts for 2 of them: removing the need to report its business with foriegn entities and the removing protection for water ways, an exception for his SEC, and a basic procedural change.

in contrast Obama already signed the first round of stimulus packages, among things. Both haven't had a full administration, again the difference, Obama at least nominated people for all the positions; Trump hasn't.

[Fugus]

You act like "trickle down" is a full description of a system, it is just low taxes for the rich, and that's it, the system is described perfectly. You do realize that there are many nuances there? Such as, for example, tax breaks for charitable activities, antitrust laws, governmental investment support for various fields... It is not that the "evil 1%" gets everything and everyone else gets nothing, the economy doesn't work like this.

And no, I'm not buying the idea that the leading tech countries are leading despite their economical system, not because of it, especially since that system causing them to lead makes perfect sense, both from the economical point of view, and casual common sense. I get the objection that healthcare and education are incredibly inaccessible in the US, Singapore and other countries with similar systems - but that only characterizes an economy system in its entirety as long as accessibility of healthcare and education are the only two factors that affect people's quality of life. It is simply not true.

Trickle Down Economics was based on the rich getting tax breaks and that trickling down to the rest, that was literally what the name was based on. Whether you buy the truth or not, doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

Our tech lead in countries had nothing to do with the tax system we have now, it had to do with actually what we had before trickle down when we had the golden age of capitalism which caused brain drain from the globe as intelligent people from around the world came here to live along with the fact that we weren't hit as hard by WW2 as a lot of the world and we were still a major manufacturer.

And no, you keep trying to think of corporate taxes like person taxes, they are not the same. Here are 2 hypotheticals.

Scenario 1) You have a 95% tax rate on corporations, a company invests 100 million into R&D, that 100 million was tax deductible as a business expense.
Scenario 2) You have a 5% tax rate on corporations, a company invests 100 million into R&D, that 100 million was tax deductible as a business expense.

You see how little the tax rate had on that expense? That is what we have now when it comes to business expenses and Trickle Down did not help that in the slightest. And how in the flying, frosted, snow covered fuck would trickle down help with healthcare or middle class standard of living?

Logically explain that to me please because it sounds like Al Bundy trying to describe his Midnight Madness Sale on Married with Children.

[Nadiru]

Trickle Down Economics was based on the rich getting tax breaks and that trickling down to the rest, that was literally what the name was based on. Whether you buy the truth or not, doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

Our tech lead in countries had nothing to do with the tax system we have now, it had to do with actually what we had before trickle down when we had the golden age of capitalism which caused brain drain from the globe as intelligent people from around the world came here to live along with the fact that we weren't hit as hard by WW2 as a lot of the world and we were still a major manufacturer.

That's patently untrue. The US became a a global leader in scientific research long before its golden age of capitalism. American scientific domination has little to do with its tax structure and more to do with tax allocation.

[usiris]

Well, if business people have more money, chances are they will invest it. If middle class people have more money, chances are they will spend it. Both spur job creation, but the long term bet is on corporate tax reform to come out ahead.

Show me an example of where this happens.

I mean look at what Cisco said they would do if they could repatriate money from overseas. Funnel the money to execs and shareholders, 77% of which are companies like Vanguard and Blackrock. This dosent create jobs or reinvest money. It sits in banks and 401k's.

[Fugus]

That's patently untrue. The US became a a global leader in scientific research long before its golden age of capitalism. American scientific domination has little to do with its tax structure and more to do with tax allocation.

Thank you for the clarification. Was just trying to get it across to him that the tax structure of trickle down economics didn't help us with our scientific level, our education or our quality of living at all.

Tax allocation I can completely agree with which was something that Trickle Down actually hurt by cutting the revenue we could throw into it.

[Garnier Fructis]

I can claim to have created the world on my website, doesn't make it true.

Archived from November 2015:
http://web.archive.org/web/201511090...ons/tax-reform

It actually has been there pretty much the whole time. Still a ridiculous plan on the whole, but yeah, it's there.

[Mormolyce]

There's not much in the way of evidence for this claim. The Department of Education began operating in 1980 and it's very difficult to find any evidence that the quality of education has changed noticeably since that time. Most snapshots of scores over time look something like this:

Isn't that cost increase well below inflation?

- - - Updated - - -

Trump puts tax cuts in for everybody and all wealth classes but with corporate tax loopholes closed off. The MSM focus only about the corporate tax cuts and associated buzz words.

Probably because they know that vague talk about "loopholes closed off" is likely a crock of shit.

I guess we'll see, once Trump finally finishes pushing through travel bans that accomplish nothing and get overturned by the judiciary, filling his cabinet with crooked billionaires and tweeting about how much better his ratings were on the Apprentice than Schwarzenegger's.

[Barnabas]

it's stupid how people believe in this trickle down shit. only thing trickling down is the piss of the rich as they laugh at how stupid the poor are.

conservatism only belongs on the borders. everywhere else, it's only a detriment to society.

trickle down government leaves you in poverty.

[Macaquerie]

Probably because they know that vague talk about "loopholes closed off" is likely a crock of shit.

I guess we'll see, once Trump finally finishes pushing through travel bans that accomplish nothing and get overturned by the judiciary, filling his cabinet with crooked billionaires and tweeting about how much better his ratings were on the Apprentice than Schwarzenegger's.

Hearing Republicans talk about "closing loopholes" always gives me a headache, because the obvious first thought anyone has is - why can't they just close the loopholes first, see how much revenue that actually brings in, and then think about whether it's appropriate to cut tax rates?

[Endus]

That's patently untrue. The US became a a global leader in scientific research long before its golden age of capitalism. American scientific domination has little to do with its tax structure and more to do with tax allocation.

If it had to do with anything, it had to do with the USA enjoying the manufacturing boon of supplying two World Wars, while also being nearly unique in that they were too far from the action to be a serious target, so their manufacturing and science sectors saw massive increases, and no negatives, unlike their European allies, whose similar facilities were devastated by the war effort, due to their proximity to the fighting.

In short, it's geography, not ideology.