Russia defends its recognition of Ukraine rebel passports

[caervek]

Which law exactly was broken?

The international law against choosing to let people without valid passports into your country apparently :P

[Elim Garak]

The international law against choosing to let people without valid passports into your country apparently :P

Pff. Putin Trumps international law.

[PassingBy]

Take the tin foil off for a second. If that was their goal, they would just start granting them dual Russian citizenship and handing out Russian passports.

In that case Russia will be forced to send actual army into Eastern Ukraine when the current Kiev government starts it's next offensive against those rebels.
Since by Russian constitution and current military doctrine the President is obliged to protect the Russian citizens in such cases using military force.

Taking into account the fact that Ukraine is trying to provoke Russia into bringing in the actual Russian army for the last 3 years it would be a big present for them.

[Noradin]

Take the tin foil off for a second. If that was their goal, they would just start granting them dual Russian citizenship and handing out Russian passports.

No, they wouldn't, that would be the exact opposite of what they would be doing.

- - - Updated - - -

The international law against choosing to let people without valid passports into your country apparently :P

Issuing passports in the name of another sovereign nation.

[caervek]

Straw straw straw

Whatever you want to call it, the civil war has been ongoing for a while and while the conflict settled down it has once again flared up, as you know how to use google try looking for something like "homes destroyed ukraine", there were loads of news articles at the time on Kievs forces attacking civilians (which is understandable as at the start of the civil war most of the eastern combatants were Ukrainian civilians).

- - - Updated - - -

Issuing passports in the name of another sovereign nation.

Nobody has done that though.

If you read the OP the breakaway republics are issuing their own passports as people are unable to get Ukrainian ones due to the blockade.

Like I said if Russia were trying to do something subversive they would be granting dual citizenship and handing out Russian passports, not trying to make the best of a bad situation by accepting the DPR/LPR passports.

[Noradin]

Better not to do a thing. Don't you think? They already got their documents.

Do they?
Whose authority were those issued under?

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody has done that though.

Whose authority were those passports issued with, then?
Please name the body recognised under international law that did lend them their validity.

[Elim Garak]

Do they?
Whose authority were those issued under?

Self proclaimed authority. Now those documents are recognized by Russia as valid documents.

[Shalcker]

If they want to accept them as refugees why the need for new passports then, are all those three year olds such a big problem?
Why not just accept expired passports from Ukraine?

There are people who should have gotten Ukrainian passports and cannot. They don't have even expired ones because they didn't have any when conflict started.

Yes, I agree that there is an issue, but there are other ways than to acknowledge the issuing of passports by cherry-picked non-government authorities that just so happen to have the express favour of Russia.
I think this is being used as a tool to lend them a legitimacy they do not have.

Well, what kind of solution do you suggest?

[Fat Mac]

Looks like Putin is moving to annex more of Ukraine, give a bully an inch and they'll take a mile.

i believe the saying in that part of the world is "give a bully a centimeter they'll take a kilometer" comrade

[PassingBy]

What's a "Ukrainian civil war"? The 1917–1921 Independance war? There were no civil wars in Ukraine's history. What has been going on since 2014 can be reffered to as the War in Donbass. You might want to google it. Here's a Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass

Let's see.

What is a "civil war".
Let's take the oxford dictionary explanation for it:

"A war between citizens of the same country."

Who is at war at the east of Ukraine: mainly Ukranians fighting Ukranians. Russian military advisors and probably some mercenaries along with volunteers the Ukranians from one side. US and some other NATO countries military advisors, along with mercenaries from a whole lot of countries helping Ukranians that represent the current Kiev government.
But still it is citizens of Ukraine fighting citizens of Ukraine.

In order for it to be a war - someone has to declare the said war. And the official armies from both countries have to be clashing with each other.
However till now we haven't seen any substantial proof of Russian regular army taking part in the offensive (apart from the advisors, mercenaries and volunteers), while it is quite obvious that Russia is providing intelligence, military advice, and probably arms to the rebels in eastern Ukraine.
What is more - Russia and Ukraine still haven't severed diplomatic ties with each other. International trade between Ukraine and Russia is not severed. Ukraine keeps profiting from the transit of Russian gas, as well as transit of goods both in and out of Russia. Ukranians still don't even need a visa to enter Russia and millions of them are entering Russia looking for a job, due to poor economic state of Ukraine. The president of Ukraine has his factories operating inside Russia, and paying taxes into Russian federal budget.

So it is a rather strange "war". Ain't it?

What is more - we have seen the capabilities of the Russian army during the annexation of Crimea, where around 30 thousand troops were deployed within days, blocked all the armed forces of Ukraine, disarmed them and forced out of the peninsula.
We have also seen the capabilities of the Russian airforce just recently in Syria, including cruise missiles, long range bombers etc.

Surprisingly the rebels in eastern Ukraine are using old soviet weaponry, have no aviation support, neither do they have newest Russian tanks, armored vehicles, self propelled artillery systems etc. The weaponry used by them is mainly the kind of weapons that were possible to be potentially acquired from the military warehouses and militarty outposts on the rebel controlled territory, as well as the equipment reclaimed from the Ukranian army.

So calling it a "war" with Russia is quite a far fetch.

[Noradin]

Well, what kind of solution do you suggest?

Set up an office and issue them temporary documents (not passports) under Russian authority that guarantee them the right to stay and work in Russia while the conflict is ongoing (and some time afterwards).

The problem isn't that they permit them in the country based on these "passports" but that by declaring those "passports" "valid" they declare that the body issuing them is representative of Ukraine and can use their (the Ukraine's) authority.
If they use them as evidence and then issue papers under Russias own authority then that would be ok.

[Nevianx]

Whatever you want to call it, the civil war has been ongoing for a while and while the conflict settled down it has once again flared up, as you know how to use google try looking for something like "homes destroyed ukraine", there were loads of news articles at the time on Kievs forces attacking civilians (which is understandable as at the start of the civil war most of the eastern combatants were Ukrainian civilians).

Mhh, why should I google "homes destroyed ukraine" if everyone knows that homes are indeed being destroyed in Ukraine? The only problem here is that you have Russian or pro-Russian media-resources saying it's Ukraine bombing its own people, and then you have all other media-resources saying it's Russia-backed armed groups shelling Ukrainian people. At this point only you can decide what you want to believe.

[Deleted]

Whose authority were those passports issued with, then?
Please name the body recognised under international law that did lend them their validity.

Russia is the body recognised under international law that did lend them their validity.

it's really not a black/white situation. there are lots of countries that are not universally recognized by all other countries. the closest you can get to universal recognition is being accepted into the UN general assembly, but even there you don't need anything near a unanimous vote. basically every country decides what other countries it recognizes, but you don't have to be recognized by anybody to be a country as long as you control some area. e.g. ISIS is for all intends and purposes a nation state that is just not recognized by anybody. privately owned islands or oil rigs could proclaim themselves sovereign too if they wanted.

[Noradin]

Russia is the body recognised under international law that did lend them their validity.

Then it says "citizen of Russia" there on those "passports"?
Because they cannot issue passports under the authority of another country but that is essentially what they are trying to do here.

[Nevianx]

So calling it a "war" with Russia is quite a far fetch.

Who's calling it a war with Russia?

[Deleted]

Then it says "citizen of Russia" there on those "passports"?
Because they cannot issue passports under the authority of another country but that is essentially what they are trying to do here.

Russia for all intends and purposes recognizes Donbas or w/e it's called as a sovereign state, separate from Ukraine.

It's no different from how your country recognizes it's neighbor country as a sovereign state. and i'm sure your country doesn't issue passports for everybody who visits from there.

[Machismo]

If this means Russia will take in refugees, fine. If it means Russia is going to try and assert more power in a sovereign nation, not so fine. Only time will tell which is the case.

[Noradin]

Russia for all intends and purposes recognizes Donbas or w/e it's called as a sovereign state, separate from Ukraine.

It's no different from how your country recognizes it's neighbor country as a sovereign state. and i'm sure your country doesn't issue passports for everybody who visits from there.

So we can expect them to join Russia soon?
The referendum votes are already counted are they?

[Shalcker]

Set up an office and issue them temporary documents (not passports) under Russian authority that guarantee them the right to stay and work in Russia while the conflict is ongoing (and some time afterwards).

Well, that's exactly what DNR/LNR documents are.

Until Minsk agreements are fulfilled by Ukraine.

Those guys are considered Russian puppets anyway, so as far as Ukrainian vision goes there is no difference.

The problem isn't that they permit them in the country based on these "passports" but that by declaring those "passports" "valid" they declare that the body issuing them is representative of Ukraine and can use their (the Ukraine's) authority.

Exactly! They are UKRAINIANS as far as Russia is concerned.

If they use them as evidence and then issue papers under Russias own authority then that would be ok.

No, that would actually be infringing on Ukrainian sovereignty.

[Noradin]

Well, that's exactly what DNR/LNR documents are.

Until Minsk agreements are fulfilled by Ukraine.

No, they aren't. They aren't issued under Russian authority.

Exactly! They are UKRAINIANS as far Russia is concerned.

So Russia isn't really trying to just help those people but to use them as a pretext to declare the rebels official representatives of the Ukraine.

No, that would actually be infringing on Ukrainian sovereignty.

Only if they called those documents "passports" instead of, say, "temporary residence and work permits".