[Balance] Low dps on Tychondrius and Botanist HC

[Hoto]

Hey everyone,
here are my logs for this two fights. I feel I've been performing poorly yet I didn't see any major mistake.
Wondering if you guys can point some directions for doing better, not only for rotation, but also items and stats balancing, I feel my trinkets and crit might be a little off and I didn't use simcraft in a while.

Things that I might be doing wrong:
not enough starsurges in general;
too many sunfire/moonfire on bats during thycondrius dream;
potions, i'm only using prolonged power since i'm a bit low on money;
sometimes I don't know if I should pop CA on cd or wait specific fight moments;

Logs:
Botanist
Thycondrius

Thanks !

[Deleted]

yo, without even looking at ur rotation i can immediately point out reasons u will not get higher than 75 percentiles on heroic.

Firstly on Tich, where your tanks take the bloods is where they should tank the boss, and just tank the bloods there as well, this gives you an extra cleave target and the adds may live longer as well as it being next to the other add spawns, plenty of padding to do! boomies love dat sheet!

Save cds til after the first illusion when u have the buff and hero then as well, usually bloods that previously spawned will still be alive here as well so this makes immense dps for you.

On botanist, really commit to the final 50% and lower. Therefore remove the legendary helm, get something with haste and mastery and high ilvl so then you can wear either lady and the child or sephuz's preferably both, OI is not as good as them on this fight. Use the entanglement talent. Entangle parsites every spawn to proc sephuz's, always starfall from 50% onwards, spam moonfire when moving with lady and the child when u have no AP, try to include as many things targets in a starfall as possible, keep up all dots on 3 bosses and dont bother dotting parasites. Prolonged war with hero on 50% of boss.

Use a cursor hover macro for starfall and u will never go back.

[Tehterokkar]

yo, without even looking at ur rotation i can immediately point out reasons u will not get higher than 75 percentiles on heroic.

Firstly on Tich, where your tanks take the bloods is where they should tank the boss, and just tank the bloods there as well, this gives you an extra cleave target and the adds may live longer as well as it being next to the other add spawns, plenty of padding to do! boomies love dat sheet!

Save cds til after the first illusion when u have the buff and hero then as well, usually bloods that previously spawned will still be alive here as well so this makes immense dps for you.

On botanist, really commit to the final 50% and lower. Therefore remove the legendary helm, get something with haste and mastery and high ilvl so then you can wear either lady and the child or sephuz's preferably both, OI is not as good as them on this fight. Use the entanglement talent. Entangle parsites every spawn to proc sephuz's, always starfall from 50% onwards, spam moonfire when moving with lady and the child when u have no AP, try to include as many things targets in a starfall as possible, keep up all dots on 3 bosses and dont bother dotting parasites. Prolonged war with hero on 50% of boss.

Use a cursor hover macro for starfall and u will never go back.

Tichondrius:
No, you can't tank bloods on boss on heroic unless you overgear the fight severely. Also you want to use CA on pull, you will get 15s of the buff to use after the night phase, which lines up perfectly with Celestial Alignment.

Botanist:
Depends on one's legendaries, but the helm is still a 940 highest budget stat slot, it's not bad, but there are better options. But OPs reasons for performance are not with 1 gear change.



OT:
I don't want to delve too much into logs because it always boils down to 3 points:

1) ABC = Always Be Casting, even if you are moving, use Moon-/Sunfire to refresh DoTs.
2) Have Dots rolling on all available targets
3) Have Starfall rolling when 2 or more targets.

So in short, get better at making sure all available targets are under DoTs immediately and then follow it up by a Starfall.

A few other tips is that try to build 80-ish AsP before a set of Bloods on Tichondrius spawn, then use 1 Starfall, cast 1-2 Wraths and use 2x Starfall back to back so the bloods get 2 starfalls ticking on them at once before they die. This is a better practice on short lived add spawns to stack Starfalls fast before Adds die rather than try and extend the overall duration of Starfall by staggering their use.

As far as the "get mouseover macro for Starfall" goes, I personally find it much easier to know what is the exact area of Starfall, which is especially useful for fights like Botanist and Augur where adds spawn a bit away from the bosses and you can min-max the hit-zone better when you see the green reticle(If the very edge of the green circle overlaps with an add, it will hit it).

[Deleted]

Tichondrius:
No, you can't tank bloods on boss on heroic unless you overgear the fight severely. Also you want to use CA on pull, you will get 15s of the buff to use after the night phase, which lines up perfectly with Celestial Alignment.

Botanist:
Depends on one's legendaries, but the helm is still a 940 highest budget stat slot, it's not bad, but there are better options. But OPs reasons for performance are not with 1 gear change.



OT:
I don't want to delve too much into logs because it always boils down to 3 points:

1) ABC = Always Be Casting, even if you are moving, use Moon-/Sunfire to refresh DoTs.
2) Have Dots rolling on all available targets
3) Have Starfall rolling when 2 or more targets.

So in short, get better at making sure all available targets are under DoTs immediately and then follow it up by a Starfall.

A few other tips is that try to build 80-ish AsP before a set of Bloods on Tichondrius spawn, then use 1 Starfall, cast 1-2 Wraths and use 2x Starfall back to back so the bloods get 2 starfalls ticking on them at once before they die. This is a better practice on short lived add spawns to stack Starfalls fast before Adds die rather than try and extend the overall duration of Starfall by staggering their use.

As far as the "get mouseover macro for Starfall" goes, I personally find it much easier to know what is the exact area of Starfall, which is especially useful for fights like Botanist and Augur where adds spawn a bit away from the bosses and you can min-max the hit-zone better when you see the green reticle(If the very edge of the green circle overlaps with an add, it will hit it).

We've been tanking the bloods with the tank since first week with guild average of 885-890ilvl area, if a guild cannot do this in heroic they arent really that good or confident. Im giving out the max pad advice, which without the ring includes holding onto CA so that immediately when u come out you can cleave the 3-6 bloods that should still be up, whereas CA'ing at the start means your second CA the bloods are already dead. Your tactic is however best for progress and gives a quicker overall kill. Im normally 1.2m dps at the end of this fight without the ring, i predict alot more if you are lucky enough to get the ring.

Now, when you severely overgear the situation and your guild allows it u can wear the belt and pad for days having the majority of the group not even kill the blobs and they always heal to full giving u loads of belt damage. Thats what u do when u overgear it. And before you think it hasnt been done, theres been videos of this since the first week.

Now with botanist, i gave him suggestions to try with gear swaps, changing my gear drastically increases my dps in that fight by an extra 200k or so. So im going to take an educated guess and say it might help him as well. Again its always worth him trying and you too, rather than making unfounded statements.

Test test test this is the best thing u can do, tinker, dont do the same thing twice if its not working for you. Dont listen to one track ponies who havent tested anything, these guys just read one guide and apply it to every situation.

[Argenon]

As far as the "get mouseover macro for Starfall" goes, I personally find it much easier to know what is the exact area of Starfall, which is especially useful for fights like Botanist and Augur where adds spawn a bit away from the bosses and you can min-max the hit-zone better when you see the green reticle(If the very edge of the green circle overlaps with an add, it will hit it).

I have one of my mouse buttons (Naga Hex) macroed to Starfall, for the same reason of I like seeing the circle, and this has helped me a lot on Botanist and AoE in general.

[sinofasin]

Hey everyone,
here are my logs for this two fights. I feel I've been performing poorly yet I didn't see any major mistake.
Wondering if you guys can point some directions for doing better, not only for rotation, but also items and stats balancing, I feel my trinkets and crit might be a little off and I didn't use simcraft in a while.

Things that I might be doing wrong:
not enough starsurges in general;
too many sunfire/moonfire on bats during thycondrius dream;
potions, i'm only using prolonged power since i'm a bit low on money;
sometimes I don't know if I should pop CA on cd or wait specific fight moments;

Logs:
Botanist
Thycondrius

Thanks !

I'm pretty new to reading logs can anyone point out to me how do i read his overall dps for each fight? I too am experiencing some issue w this fight as a boomie w 890 equipped, definitely not pulling as high as i should looking at how boomies are easily pulling 1million(?) on this fight based on the the world heroic ranking logs

[Tyriama]

I'm pretty new to reading logs can anyone point out to me how do i read his overall dps for each fight? I too am experiencing some issue w this fight as a boomie w 890 equipped, definitely not pulling as high as i should looking at how boomies are easily pulling 1million(?) on this fight based on the the world heroic ranking logs

If you check the damage dealt to mob section of the logs on those high-parse logs, you'll see they're doing often 60+% damage to the bloods, then rest on Tychondrius, because they've stacked the bloods near tichondrius so they leech health continously.

This is called padding, and only thing it does is inflate epeen. Same can be done on Skorpyron normal, f.ex, where you just stack the small scorpids infront of the boss and classes with high instant AOE like Afflilock, Frost DK etc can get their absurd DPS.

- - - Updated - - -

I have one of my mouse buttons (Naga Hex) macroed to Starfall, for the same reason of I like seeing the circle, and this has helped me a lot on Botanist and AoE in general.

I have one of each. One @cursor for just dumping the starfalls when min-maxing it's position isn't too important (singletarget, close cleave.) and one "normal" spell with the target reticule.
The reason I normally use the @cursor only is the amount of times I've had target deselect when casting starfalls, especially with OI proc and high AP. Spending a while with the casting circle makes you get muscle-memory of it's approximate size, so I only use the non-instant one when there is a very large area to cover.

[sinofasin]

- - - Updated - - -

If you check the damage dealt to mob section of the logs on those high-parse logs, you'll see they're doing often 60+% damage to the bloods, then rest on Tychondrius, because they've stacked the bloods near tichondrius so they leech health continously.

i understand how padding works i just don't know how to read the logs he posted lol. I cant find the exact number of dps he pulled on the 2 fights he linked cos i'm still new to reading logs.

[Skyepic]

We've been tanking the bloods with the tank since first week with guild average of 885-890ilvl area, if a guild cannot do this in heroic they arent really that good or confident. Im giving out the max pad advice, which without the ring includes holding onto CA so that immediately when u come out you can cleave the 3-6 bloods that should still be up, whereas CA'ing at the start means your second CA the bloods are already dead. Your tactic is however best for progress and gives a quicker overall kill. Im normally 1.2m dps at the end of this fight without the ring, i predict alot more if you are lucky enough to get the ring.

Now, when you severely overgear the situation and your guild allows it u can wear the belt and pad for days having the majority of the group not even kill the blobs and they always heal to full giving u loads of belt damage. Thats what u do when u overgear it. And before you think it hasnt been done, theres been videos of this since the first week.

Now with botanist, i gave him suggestions to try with gear swaps, changing my gear drastically increases my dps in that fight by an extra 200k or so. So im going to take an educated guess and say it might help him as well. Again its always worth him trying and you too, rather than making unfounded statements.

Test test test this is the best thing u can do, tinker, dont do the same thing twice if its not working for you. Dont listen to one track ponies who havent tested anything, these guys just read one guide and apply it to every situation.

The point is your suggestions should be based on the strat they are using, not "you guys should changed your strat so you can cleave more". The fight dies with the strat they use, don't fix what isn't broken. Does this strat allow him to reach his maximum DPS potential on the fight? probably not, but that's also not what he's asking. It's not like he's gunna go into next raid and say to his GM/Raid Leader "hey can we tank the bloods on top of the boss so i we can pad more?" Thinking you're superior to someone else just because your numbers are higher is just as ridiculous as thinking you're superior because your ilvl is higher.

On-Topic: (i'll post stuff for botanist later when i have a chance)
1), It may be out of your control but you should try to drop your starfall so that it hits the bloods and tichondrius at the same time, based on your positioning this SHOULD be possible but it will take a bit of testing to get right. Tichondrius hitbox is bigger than his model so you can technically drop your starfall a few inches outside his boss model and he should still get the stellar empowerment debuff.

2). There are times when you're solar wrathing the bloods when there are multiple bloods active. This is probably to use your empowerments, however i would suggest banking the solar empowerements for once you switch back to Tich. Just use starfire when the bloods are out.

3). Your opener is a bit off. You full mooned before using CA, that's a big nono.

4). There are multiple times you are single starfalling Tich. Even with stellar drift, in a pure single target secenario (I.E you have 40+AsP and there are no active bloods) you should be using that AP on starsurge. If you have an Oneth's buff then by all means drop a starfall, but the times i saw in the replay you did not have oneth's up.

5). If you can stagger it without capping at 3 moon charges, Full Moon the bloods.

6). Depending on kill speed it may be more beneficial to just sunfire > starfall > starfire the adds instead of wasting GCD's on Moonfire. Several times the bloods are dying in short duration, making the moonfire casts close to useless. I also wouldn't bother moonfiring the bats during Phase 2. Try to prep and have 100 AsP when going into the phase, spam sunfire and start to drop starfalls when the bats start spawning in bigger waves, picking up an early buff will also be beneficial. Doesn't look like you got a buff at all coming out of Phase 2.

[Argenon]

The reason I normally use the @cursor only is the amount of times I've had target deselect when casting starfalls

I will say this definitely sucks when it happens, and I like your idea of having an @cursor for a lot of the times when placement doesn't matter as much.

[Deleted]

The point is your suggestions should be based on the strat they are using, not "you guys should changed your strat so you can cleave more". The fight dies with the strat they use, don't fix what isn't broken. Does this strat allow him to reach his maximum DPS potential on the fight? probably not, but that's also not what he's asking. It's not like he's gunna go into next raid and say to his GM/Raid Leader "hey can we tank the bloods on top of the boss so i we can pad more?" Thinking you're superior to someone else just because your numbers are higher is just as ridiculous as thinking you're superior because your ilvl is higher.

If he is comparing his dps to logs then this information he needs to know, that he will never reach the top 10% without tactic adjustments. Im not telling him to do it, but i am telling him how its done.

[Skyepic]

If he is comparing his dps to logs then this information he needs to know, that he will never reach the top 10% without tactic adjustments. Im not telling him to do it, but i am telling him how its done.

At no point in his post does he say he's comparing himself to top parses, all he says is he feels he's performing below his expectations and wants some constructive criticism. All i'm saying is you should lead with something that answers what he asks. Instead you start with "your strat is wrong". That's not really helpful.

[Deleted]

At no point in his post does he say he's comparing himself to top parses, all he says is he feels he's performing below his expectations and wants some constructive criticism. All i'm saying is you should lead with something that answers what he asks. Instead you start with "your strat is wrong". That's not really helpful.

Honestly though, whats your problem? Why are you trying to start some kind of fight? Why dont you give your constructive criticism and let me give mine, its up to him to judge what is useful not you. if the dude is aware of logs, which he is, then he is aware of percentiles and he will look at them. I am comforting him that the tactic is working against him and not his playstyle when compared to higher performances. And you'd be a fool to say that the tactics dont help with higher dps, if you do think that then I hope you are not a raid leader.

[roi]

You let sunfire drop off way too often (76% uptime on arcanist tel'arn). Displacer beast into purple jizz to kill yourself didn't help either.

Despite that you were still doing pretty good compared to your raid...

Just look at your BL phase (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...07&end=4469850), the 899 warlock is trolling, one of your fury warriors is afk, dh with sephuz didn't proc it a single time in the whole fight, random talent builds everywhere, people dying left and right....of course you won't get a good ranking in that environment and atrocious kill speed.

[Hoto]

Thanks everyone for the replies.
To wrap this up, I think we will try keeping bloods close to Tych since we should be geared enough to burst them down before they do too much healing.
As pointed out this wasn't necessarily the most crucial advice I was looking for, but everything is fine when it makes sense.

Full moon before CA is indeed a mistake I don't usually do, can't say why it happened on that try. Same goes for starfall on single target, which is not a good idea.
I was indeed using moonfire on bats, and I wondered if it was worth, turns out it's not.
We tend to let the healers take the purple orbs during bats phase so they can refill their mana, but I'll try to catch the last orbs as soon as healers are done.

As of this week I've seen a slight improvement on both bosses
Tychondrius
Botanist

Still having a hard time keeping both dots up on the botanist and his mates due to the large amount of target swapping, and movement, especially during phase 3, but I hope I'll get there soon.
@roi
You're right about us not being exceptional raiders, but we consider ourselves casual players, so that will do for the moment