What makes WF/TF a problem for people?

[Deleted]

again, if your friend is under geared, run him through heroic a few times to catch him up. why do you want to be able to raid mythic without gearing up for it? how is that even viable. where is he magically supposed to get this mythic raiding gear if its not from previous mythic tiers / heroic current tier or m+

What? You misunderstand the problem. It's fine to run dungeons to gear up to heroic. It's fine to run heroics to gear up to mythic.
It's NOT fine having to run dungeons and heroics once you're in full mythic gear to endlessly gear up from lower content with low chance drops.
To put it another way, progression used to be:

quests -> dungeon -> normal -> heroic -> mythic

Now it's

quests -> quests + dungeon -> quests + dungeon + normal -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic + mythic

See the problem? If you don't want to get left behind you have to do all the content, all the time, every week. I did not sign up for never ending grinding.
And NO, it was not like this before WoD's "raid logger dream". You never had to go back to normal raids or dungeons in any of the earlier expansions.

[Nnyco]

If you're an LFR/normal mode player then yeah, this system probably is fine for you. For everyone else it sucks dick.

mythic is 900-910, chance to get capped items is way easier and less rng than anywhere else

[Effenz]

this would be perfect, but it again means that people would eventually be "finished" with gearing, which is something they have made clear that they absolutely do not want

Because once you get Bis, why even bother logging in, ya? Time to ebay.
idk the lure of always having a potential upgrade is always good
keyword being potential.

People see wf/tf and want every item to roll 925+socket+leech all the time and if it, doesn't woe is me this game is shit and broken etc etc etc

- - - Updated - - -

What? You misunderstand the problem. It's fine to run dungeons to gear up to heroic. It's fine to run heroics to gear up to mythic.
It's NOT fine having to run dungeons and heroics once you're in full mythic gear to endlessly gear up from lower content with low chance drops.
To put it another way, progression used to be:

quests -> dungeon -> normal -> heroic -> mythic

Now it's

quests -> quests + dungeon -> quests + dungeon + normal -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic + mythic

See the problem? If you don't want to get left behind you have to do all the content, all the time, every week. I did not sign up for never ending grinding.
And NO, it was not like this before WoD's "raid logger dream". You never had to go back to normal raids or dungeons in any of the earlier expansions.

You don't have to do that, you choose to do that.

Progression path is the same as it's always been.

[Deleted]

Now look at this scenario.
Player is in a semi-hardcore mythic guild. He enjoys raiding 3 days a week and clearing mythic maybe a month or two after the world first, but still at a respectable pace before the next content patch, and has done so in the last several expansion packs.
His guild has a mix of players, everyone is at least decent but really good players are scarce. There is some struggling with mechanics and DPS checks.

Some of his guild members play alts, and do weekly clears of heroic and normal raids. Player only really cares about mythic and doesn't participate, but some other players join on their mains to help out. These other players are now getting triple the chance for good legendaries, plus the occasional TF loot. Their artifact weapons are also higher level. Although our player is present on all mythic raids with 100% attendance, others in the guild who can stomach running boring content and the same raid 3 times a week are slowly outgearing him. Player now faces getting sat out because he has simply lower item level and others can do more dps, which will compensate for having not so good players in the guild and having a hard time with dps checks.
Player can no longer enjoy the single reason he was playing the game in the last 5+ years, which is mythic raids only. Either he has to do shitty, boring easy content that he loaths or he will be simply left behind.

Sorry but that is BULLSHIT. if you dont put in the time for your "wanna be mythic" you ofc get setout and thats the case since vanilla. if you dont support your team dont expect them to rely on you!

[Heathy]

What? You misunderstand the problem. It's fine to run dungeons to gear up to heroic. It's fine to run heroics to gear up to mythic.
It's NOT fine having to run dungeons and heroics once you're in full mythic gear to endlessly gear up from lower content with low chance drops.
To put it another way, progression used to be:

quests -> dungeon -> normal -> heroic -> mythic

Now it's

quests -> quests + dungeon -> quests + dungeon + normal -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic -> quests + dungeon + normal + heroic + mythic

See the problem? If you don't want to get left behind you have to do all the content, all the time, every week. I did not sign up for never ending grinding.
And NO, it was not like this before WoD's "raid logger dream". You never had to go back to normal raids or dungeons in any of the earlier expansions.

no its still the first way, you can choose for it to be the way you want but it really is not mandatory to go through that convoluted process, you should be perfectly fine progressing though one tier of content (one tier of difficulties =/= one difficulty of each tier), you progress through en/tov mythic to gear up for nighthold mythic. obviously what has happened is you haven't run enough en mythics if one guy is still behind on loot, run one or two more of those in pugs or alt runs or something and he'll be up to par. honestly if everyone funnels gear to that one guy he should gear up really quickly. this should be blatant common knowledge by now.

I don't do wq's on my priest anymore, only for the emissary. I run low dungeons to boost alts and farm bloods, I run one 15+ a week and then stop running them, i might do a few 11s 12s 13s etc but once i've done a 15 i'm happy, you only need to run 1x 15 for your weekly ilvl 900.

one fucking run is hardly going to kill anyone. even if you don't like the content, its not going to kill you taking your friend through one of those a few times for a few 900 pieces. surely someone has maintained a decent key, even if you have a few 10's or something for super pros like you guys should melt a +10 and level up the key to 15 in an hour or two. hell deliberately keep depleting a 17 key each week and you won't have to level up any keys you'll just always start the week with a +15 and you can plough through that in 30mins. then done.

making mountains out of mole hills. too many ppl really are armchair developers, too many ppl think the game should revolve around only their playstyle. grow the fuck up, harden the fuck up. its a game, not a job, not brain surgery. run the content, get good or gtfo. ez.

lets face it he can't be much of a friend if you'd rather be here whining about rng instead of you know, helping your friend, thats going to get benched. one would think the smart thing to do would be to suck up the distaste for peasant content and help their friend, i guess i was sorely mistaken.

ofc if you want to maximize loot drops farming dungeon content, at least farming mythics over +10 would be the best way to do it, i think world quests are only really there to gear up fresh 110s the wf/tf stacking chance is too low and the base ilvl is too low.

world quests are on par with mythic zero. you don't need to do it once your past 860, i mean there is a small chance you'll still get an upgrade but your focus should be elsewhere once you reach 860. namely pugging normals and running m+. if you only want to raid then you have to be content with limited loot chances, if you want more loot chances then you have to run m+ the only content that has CONSISTENT loot that scales with raid tiers. hell i like m+ its challenging it actually forces each player to do everything they can. the +15s don't hand you free loot, doing +15s has been harder to heal than doing heroic nighthold, the encounters in heroic nighthold are easier to heal than a +15 keystone run.

if a 15+ is harder to heal than a heroic raid, it deserves rewards on par with content that requires that level of effort. albeit, the only real reason m+15 is harder than raiding is because of the amount of one shot abilties, things that hit like wet noodles in m-0 end up nearly one shotting ppl in +15 so sure, mythic+ 15 is harder to heal than raid content because raid content doesn't have as many one shot mechanics.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Because once you get Bis, why even bother logging in, ya? Time to ebay

because you enjoy the raid + people in your group need to gear up alts + because not everyone you play with gets bis at exactly the same time?

sadly they agree with you, that everyone who managed to achieve bis gear before wod/legion made it impossible would instantly quit the game until the next tier and sell their account, doesn't make it any less of a retarded thing to believe

Sorry but that is BULLSHIT. if you dont put in the time for your "wanna be mythic" you ofc get setout and thats the case since vanilla. if you dont support your team dont expect them to rely on you!

because not playing wow 24 hours a day means you are not supporting your team hehe

[Deleted]

You don't have to do that, you choose to do that.
Progression path is the same as it's always been.

No, I don't have to do that unless I want to keep up with the inflated item levels.
I don't have to do that if I don't mind being the guy with the lowest ilvl in the guild, even though I have 100% attendance in raids. Again, this problem is new in Legion. It's NOT AS IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. You did NOT get into a disadvantage in any of the earlier xpacs for not grinding heroic and dungeons (once you geared up).

Sorry but that is BULLSHIT. if you dont put in the time for your "wanna be mythic" you ofc get setout and thats the case since vanilla. if you dont support your team dont expect them to rely on you!

Which part of 'time requirements for "wanna be mythic" increased by 300%' you don't understand? Vanilla was shit, please don't use it as an example. Ever since TBC and especially later, not once the game required this much time investment just to raid. AP grind, legendary grind, TF grind, etc.
I have 3 days a week for raiding mythic, and I could enjoy raiding like this in the last 5 years at least. I don't have 6 days a week to also raid other difficulties and do mythic+ and daily quests every day. The requirements changed BIG TIME.

And not just compared to WoD's easy raid logging, it's also a massive increase compared to MoP, Cata and so on.

[Charge me Doctor]

You rather have a low% drop, you might see once in 50 boss kills? Over a BONUS stat?

As that's what the game always had, some tier pieces/weapons only dropped once every few months out of 25 or 40 people.

I bet you that people who complain about it never actually were in raids where they didn't get a piece over a course of progression

[Effenz]

No, I don't have to do that unless I want to keep up with the inflated item levels.
I don't have to do that if I don't mind being the guy with the lowest ilvl in the guild, even though I have 100% attendance in raids. Again, this problem is new in Legion. It's NOT AS IT'S ALWAYS BEEN. You did NOT get into a disadvantage in any of the earlier xpacs for not grinding heroic and dungeons (once you geared up).


Which part of 'time requirements for "wanna be mythic" increased by 300%' you don't understand? Vanilla was shit, please don't use it as an example. Ever since TBC and especially later, not once the game required this much time investment just to raid. AP grind, legendary grind, TF grind, etc.
I have 3 days a week for raiding mythic, and I could enjoy raiding like this in the last 5 years at least. I don't have 6 days a week to also raid other difficulties and do mythic+ and daily quests every day. The requirements changed BIG TIME.

Your chances of getting an upgrade from mindlessly doing heroics is ~1%.
You're complaining that you don't want to grind a ~1%
You aren't at a disadvantage, you perceive a disadvantage that isn't there. Unless you're doing keys that drop gear @ the itemlevel you need, you're effectively wasting your time.
Don't want to waste your time grinding a 1%? sure. Then stop doing it if you don't want to do it. If xxxsephirothxxx gets a titanforged 900 after doing DHT 50 times, good for him. Is it mandatory to do DHT 50 times? No. It's not.

- - - Updated - - -

I bet you that people who complain about it never actually were in raids where they didn't get a piece over a course of progression

Dude, I can still remember my guild. We did gruul for a year, got 3 dsts.
Did TK for a year after we stopped doing gruul's, got 1 WSC.

I used WSC/AToL/Madness of the betrayer on my rogue (with no glaives because LOL)

[Jotaux]

I hate WF/TF when it comes to world quests. They are relying on WF/TF to carry the item level of world quests. Right now there is nearly no reason for me to even do world quests now that I have 54 traits. The only time I do is when I see a relic with a trait I like and pray that it titanforges which it never does. WF/TF is a crutch for that system instead of just increasing the item levels across the board.

[Deleted]

Your chances of getting an upgrade from mindlessly doing heroics is ~1%.
You're complaining that you don't want to grind a ~1%
You aren't at a disadvantage, you perceive a disadvantage that isn't there. Unless you're doing keys that drop gear @ the itemlevel you need, you're effectively wasting your time.
Don't want to waste your time grinding a 1%? sure. Then stop doing it if you don't want to do it. If xxxsephirothxxx gets a titanforged 900 after doing DHT 50 times, good for him. Is it mandatory to do DHT 50 times? No. It's not.

I don't know where you're getting those numbers from, but from my experience 10-15% of the drops are titanforged. And don't ignore the greatly increased chances of getting those legendaries which can be 10%+ dps increase. And more AP for your weapon.

[l33t]

Higher Ilvl is not a problem, but tier pieces should always be titanforged and sockets should not be a random proc.

You all should understand though that more rng layers are nothing but a very cheap and dirty way for Blizz devs to artificially prolongate content; and also its realistic to wait for completely random stat allocation on gear in an expansion after legion, because obviously even with 4 layers of rng getting bis is too easy, so we need moar rng.

[BannedForViews]

It's very simple.

If a player can get a Mythic level or higher piece from Normal, that isn't right. What is impressive about killing mythic bosses if some guy has the same item from normal? Is it elitism? Sure, maybe a bit, but the point here is that gear has always been viewed as a "physical" representation of your accomplishment. What accomplishment did the normal player make to get a piece that's stronger than my mythic one? The answer is none.

The other part of this is about competition among "cutting edge" players. Like it or not, people care about competing on meters. They care about doing more damage, and potential new guilds or groups care about those things as well. Why should someone with the exact same gear, but who happens to have sockets and/or wf/tf have an arbitrary edge over me? There is no reason.

The only way wf/tf makes sense is for casual players, and it should be capped at a level lower than what people can get at probably no more than normal of the current tier. Tier should also be capped at at least no more than the item level of the tier above it, but maybe even 5 ilvl below. I get they want to keep stuff relevant, but Farming lower tiers for upgrades is silly. Also, how ridiculous is it that someone could havae 925 tier pants off heroic and hardly even have any mythic bosses killed. Gul'dans loot should be a treasure, not a freebee.

This was never a problem in older expansions. It seems it was only added as a catch up mechanic, but it's gone way too far.

And then there is something like the arcanocrystal, which is too powerful anyway, but imagine you get the 900+ socketed one. Does anyone really need to have that? Is the game better for it?

And what about the people that never get lucky with their wf/tf? You are so concerned about the people who got, but what about those who didn't get? Is it okay that they are perpetually behind for an extremely arbitrary reason? People didn't farm M EN for 3 months just to get 880 gear, they went in there week after week to get an extremely lucky item, and if they got it, it made a clear distinction between them and another comparable player who didn't get lucky, and there is no reason for that. We don't just care about loot dropping, we care about the right loot with the biggest TF we can get. it's a completely different dynamic and while it may be fun when you win it, most don't, and that can be demoralizing for no other reason than "rng is fun."

[Charge me Doctor]

Dude, I can still remember my guild. We did gruul for a year, got 3 dsts.
Did TK for a year after we stopped doing gruul's, got 1 WSC.

I used WSC/AToL/Madness of the betrayer on my rogue (with no glaives because LOL)

Firelands as enhancement since release, no axe from bale, two random mace drops that went to rogues, eventually got benched for low DPS and had to play on my warrior tank because of that. I'll take current system when i have plenty of loot, than old system when i had no loot.

[Effenz]

I don't know where you're getting those numbers from, but from my experience 10-15% of the drops are titanforged. And don't ignore the greatly increased chances of getting those legendaries which can be 10%+ dps increase. And more AP for your weapon.

Okay, so you have to do EN 10 times to get an upgrade. Is doing EN 10 times a bad thing to you? Then don't do it.
Is your guild top 200 world? I doubt, cus you wouldve been 54 a long time ago and you wouldn't have to be farming AP at this point. Don't want to do it? Don't do it.

And I said ~1% to be an upgrade, as in a meaningful upgrade. Would you, own a 880 base M ursoc trinket, and do N, H and M EN every week for a shot at getting a 885+ one, while NOT ENJOYING doing so?
If the answer is yes, you're an addict and there's literally 0 hope for you.

[Effenz]

It's very simple.

If a player can get a Mythic level or higher piece from Normal, that isn't right. What is impressive about killing mythic bosses if some guy has the same item from normal? Is it elitism? Sure, maybe a bit, but the point here is that gear has always been viewed as a "physical" representation of your accomplishment. What accomplishment did the normal player make to get a piece that's stronger than my mythic one? The answer is none.

The other part of this is about competition among "cutting edge" players. Like it or not, people care about competing on meters. They care about doing more damage, and potential new guilds or groups care about those things as well. Why should someone with the exact same gear, but who happens to have sockets and/or wf/tf have an arbitrary edge over me? There is no reason.

The only way wf/tf makes sense is for casual players, and it should be capped at a level lower than what people can get at probably no more than normal of the current tier. Tier should also be capped at at least no more than the item level of the tier above it, but maybe even 5 ilvl below. I get they want to keep stuff relevant, but Farming lower tiers for upgrades is silly. Also, how ridiculous is it that someone could havae 925 tier pants off heroic and hardly even have any mythic bosses killed. Gul'dans loot should be a treasure, not a freebee.

This was never a problem in older expansions. It seems it was only added as a catch up mechanic, but it's gone way too far.

And then there is something like the arcanocrystal, which is too powerful anyway, but imagine you get the 900+ socketed one. Does anyone really need to have that? Is the game better for it?

That's why it says raid finder in green text and he looks like a clown.
Thunderforged was something that was added to entice raiders to keep raiding after getting their goals, instead of just quitting/playing other toons. It backfired for those people who MUST HAVE EVERYTHING TITANFORGED OR OMG THIS GAME IS BULLSHIT, but for people who aren't retards, TF is fine. Sometimes you get a nice upgrade for doing content that is under you. That's all TF really was meant to be. You can do stuff below your ilvl and maybe get an upgrade; not DO ALL THE CONTENT BECAUSE EVERYTHING CAN BE AN UPGRADE AHHHHHHHHHH FARM FARM FARM FARM.

TF and these forums are why you people cannot have nice things.

Pretty sure it's just loot envy as someone above me just said.

[Nnyco]

Firelands as enhancement since release, no axe from bale, two random mace drops that went to rogues, eventually got benched for low DPS and had to play on my warrior tank because of that. I'll take current system when i have plenty of loot, than old system when i had no loot.

indeed, in entire first tier of cataclysm our guild had one ashkandi

new system is way better

[BannedForViews]

Scenario 2:
Player 1 Farms heroic nighthold, Player 2 Farms mythic Nighthold. Player 1 wants the same itemlevel as player 2 but not step in mythic, player 1's heroic gear always needs to titanforge to be on par with mythic, mythic gear in turn can go 15-25 beyond it's base to hit the 925 cap.

- No problem here , player 1 doesn't do the highest designed difficulty raid content and expect to have the same gear, however player 1 always needs RNG to go Titanforge, while player 2's gear titanforge is a bonus. This is a Player created problem.

[/I]

You forgot the case of 2 equal mythic raiders. Both run heroic cause "lul titan forge" and 1 gets 925 tier off Gul'dan while the other won't even see 910 for months because NH is actually hard. The odds of players 2 ever catching 1 is so infinitesimally small, that 1 will always have an advantage. Guy in my guild got a 925 chest off heroic Krosus. It's nice because we share the same token, but everyone else will always be at a gear disadvantage to him. That isn't right. Not to mention that the game has to be tuned around the ability for people to outgear the current content, the same way it was tuned for 54 traits. If you aren't out gearing it, it's going to be extremely difficult for all but the best guilds, and they put in countless hours and work extremely well together. They don't do it just because they're so much better players. No one killed Mythic Gul'dan on 9 hours a week.

tf creates an arbitrary incentive to keep grinding content that you don't need to grind, and it will very rarely reward certain people with unnecessarily amazing rewards that no one else will get from it. It creates too large a gap in those with and without which I don't think is healthy for the game. WF isn't as bad because 5 or 10 ilvls doesn't end the world, even though it isn't needed, but getting a 30-60 ilvl boost on something is extremely game breaking for that lucky player.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Thunderforged was something that was added to entice raiders to keep raiding after getting their goals, instead of just quitting/playing other toons

except it wasn't - it was added originally as a mechanic to encourage 25 man raiding participation over 10 man participation, which is why 25 man bosses had around a 20% chance to reward titanforged items, while 10 man had around a 4% chance

[BannedForViews]

That's why it says raid finder in green text and he looks like a clown.
Thunderforged was something that was added to entice raiders to keep raiding after getting their goals, instead of just quitting/playing other toons. It backfired for those people who MUST HAVE EVERYTHING TITANFORGED OR OMG THIS GAME IS BULLSHIT, but for people who aren't retards, TF is fine. Sometimes you get a nice upgrade for doing content that is under you. That's all TF really was meant to be. You can do stuff below your ilvl and maybe get an upgrade; not DO ALL THE CONTENT BECAUSE EVERYTHING CAN BE AN UPGRADE AHHHHHHHHHH FARM FARM FARM FARM.

TF and these forums are why you people cannot have nice things.

Pretty sure it's just loot envy as someone above me just said.

If a melee gets a 925 ursoc paw (or whatever it's called), that is extremely game breaking. There is just no reason for it. You can tell me it's loot envy all day long, but you can't provide an actual reason why the game is better for it. Why, because you can run old content? Seriously? At least cap the amount it can titan then so as to not make current gear irrelevant, or make normal gear better than mythic. These things ruin content balancing and completely throw off competition, which is a huge part of this game.

I'm sorry if you think competeing on meters is dumb, but if that's the case, then I find your lack of concern about doing your best dumb. I also find it dumb that someone can be beaten for extremely arbitrary reasons, like massive proc luck, or some stupid 925 trinket that you can't possibly ever acquire, no matter how long you play. There was never a problem in TBC or Wrath when you got a drop and that was it. It was what it was. It was totally fine. These arguments just smell of "I got a lucky item so don't take it away".