This is why Legion is so bad

[Daieon]

I think the fact that this is probably the only expansion since wrath where there is one giant looming issue instead of several shows progress has been made. Legions biggest problem that I have seen people mention is the endless RNG it has. Aside from that I believe a lot of people are happy. Legion just needs the next 2 patches to push itself away from the RNG train it's on and I think it will be remembered as one of the greatest WoW content patches ever

[IceMan1763]

I wouldn't presume on what most players want, but I do know what I want. Caps are not that. Caps are unsatisfying when you don't meet them and provide no satisfaction when you do, it just feels like you've met a wall and the game has said "enough for you today, go and play/do something else". Meeting caps requires meeting a schedule and what with my real life calendar already fighting for time with my raid calendar I really don't need the game dictating when I should be grinding a certain resource. "You didn't meet your cap today, sucks for you, those potential resources have been lost forever".

There's no reason a daily cap should be implemented for a system like AP. I agree that would be only very marginally (like 1%) better than no cap at all.

The ideal system should be a cap on total AP per weapon that is raised at a steady pace, like 2-3 times per week, for example. AK should have been a true catch up mechanic that only works when you're a certain amount below the cap. This allows alts, offspecs, or people who just start late in the xpac to catch up without running into the "cap" while leveling the playing field for the majority of the player base.

If you're upset that you couldn't get ahead in that type of system, I'm sorry but too bad. This game has had caps like I am describing, still does in Legion (just not for AP and M+ loot for some reason), and it needs them.

I'm gauging the response of players on several forums to Ion's blue post regarding doubling down on their unpopular system (but what else would we expect from that egomaniac and his lackeys?) for 7.2. I don't have "hard data", but the lack of play this early in the xpac, several top mythic guilds stepping out of the competitive raiding scene, and other evidence seems to point to the AP system being almost as popular as RNG legiondaries, another brainchild of braindead "It's exciting!" Ion.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

Legion is the best expansion yet!

(Time passes and people get bored)

Legion sucks so bad threads start to pop up.

[Deleted]

There's no reason a daily cap should be implemented for a system like AP. I agree that would be only very marginally (like 1%) better than no cap at all.

The ideal system should be a cap on total AP per weapon that is raised at a steady pace, like 2-3 times per week, for example. AK should have been a true catch up mechanic that only works when you're a certain amount below the cap. This allows alts, offspecs, or people who just start late in the xpac to catch up without running into the "cap" while leveling the playing field for the majority of the player base.

If you're upset that you couldn't get ahead in that type of system, I'm sorry but too bad. This game has had caps like I am describing, still does in Legion (just not for AP and M+ loot for some reason), and it needs them.

I'm gauging the response of players on several forums to Ion's blue post regarding doubling down on their unpopular system (but what else would we expect from that egomaniac and his lackeys?) for 7.2. I don't have "hard data", but the lack of play this early in the xpac, several top mythic guilds stepping out of the competitive raiding scene, and other evidence seems to point to the AP system being almost as popular as RNG legiondaries, another brainchild of braindead "It's exciting!" Ion.

If the final traits offered 0.1% dps rather than 0.5% the issue would be far less important, people would be indifferent about missing them compared to those with them. The issue with that change is that it makes those eager to progress in recognisable leaps less satisfied when they make progress or less eager to progress because of the lack of noticeable change. I say this as someone who is at 38 traits and doing noticeably less dps progressing in m nh.

Nobody is ever going to progress at the same rate, however, I don't want my play regulated to arbitrary days of the month where certain caps are extended. It feels inorganic and less like a character in a world, I honestly don't care that they are doing more dps because I will get there eventually and at my own pace, as long as I know why they are doing more dps and know that I will get there within a reasonable period of time. Like, before the release of the next tier of content.

I think the method they are addressing it with is good, if AK was to increase to the point where in the final few weeks of the tier you could maximise a weapon with minimal effort the system would be doing exactly what it needed to do. The issue is that AK didn't do that before. Now that you can buy AK 20 if you are already 25 and 15 if you are not, it does do that. (I'm AK 22).

I would go one step further, I would make the traits grow stronger over time too. Using the current "paragon" traits as an example: I would make the gain 0.1% per trait early on, growing with AK to end at 1% per trait at AK 25. This isn't because I like that type of system - I'd do it just because it seems to be what Blizzard are aiming for as an outcome of the system.

Personally, I don't like a moving target - I think the next tier of content and next expansion comes and trivialises and nullifies any of the previous content in a way that is not good for the long term health of the game nor the perception of the characters and story. I think timewalking dungeons are an excellent addition to the game that help remedy that problem and I hope Blizz takes further steps to make progression a lengthy experience that doesn't have to ruin the experience of previous content - I don't believe it can succeed with that through arbitrary capping. It certainly hasn't worked in the past.

I'd rather they stop making new continents to explore and instead made a coherent world that exists in the same time frame that can be explored like a world - and focused on content patches that evolved a cogent narrative, constantly changing that world based on the happenings of that narrative.

With all the magic in the world and constant battery from forces and beings with apocalyptic powers, Azeroth is a planet that could be shaped in innumerable ways, offering many avenues for a design team to explore without making the work that was done previous obsolete. The Caverns of Time are a great place for all of these designs to be stored and offered as additional gameplay when the world does change and I know this sentiment has been echo'ed time and time again. Hopefully it is where Artifact weapons end up, where those players that enjoy them can use them. (I know I won't be, although my reasoning is different - I like new weapon drops and a new theme on the weapon models with the new tier).

But I digress, the point that I am in-eloquently making is that people have differing opinions and rarely do they speak up about them on a public forum unless they have something to complain about. Your witnessing those people complaining about a particular system as it receives changes is par for the course in online discussion forums -- in any forum of discussion. In any place we as humans get to whine, we will.

[NightHaawk]

MoP > BC > WoTLK > Vanilla > WoD > Cata > Legion

[Siglius]

MoP > BC > WoTLK > Vanilla > WoD > Cata > Legion

Sick opinion mate. You should try to contact some of the people that refuse to believe in evolution. Their claims makes about as much sense as yours.

[NightHaawk]

Sick opinion mate. You should try to contact some of the people that refuse to believe in evolution. Their claims makes about as much sense as yours.

Thats exactly what it is mate, an opinion. Don't get too salty that I don't agree with you.

[Dracullus]

It's nice of you for creating a thread where you can vent your frustration. Can you now stay away from rest of the forum, so we can freely discuss game mechanics and criticize it constructively?

Yeah, I know, I'm stupid for wishing that.

Btw, you all seem to forget order of the expansions, it's Vanilla > TBC > WoTLK > Cata > MoP > WoD > Legion. You don't have to thank me!

[dewd]

legion is bad because of those "like the wind" kirin tor worldquests

[Eleccybubb]

legion is bad because of those "like the wind" kirin tor worldquests

Yes I'm sure some of the easiest WQs in the game are the sole reason Legion is bad............

[Vintersol]

Yes I'm sure some of the easiest WQs in the game are the sole reason Legion is bad............

Brainlag 5000ms+ is a reason.

[ItachiZaku]

I don't think legion is bad at all. I didn't like some things early on, and there are things I don't like, but I don't HATE anything about it. It's mostly the same as it has always been. You level, you PVP, you raid, you do dailies. Rep grinds, gear upgrades.

[IceMan1763]

I think a lot of it had to do with Legion simply being new and shiny. After you get into it, I thinks in one of the worst expansions they have released.

I'm with you... I rate it dead last of the xpacs I have played (Wrath -> Now).

The thing is though, I'm more of the perspective that they made some unforgivably poor design decisions that basically ruined the game for me. I might have ranked it much higher and still be subbed if the issues of legiondaries, overuse of RNG in general (crafting, sockets, secondary stats, WF/TF), and the lack of a sane capping system for AP (exponential scaling is not a cap, I want a CAP I don't care if < 5% of players didn't like it before... it worked).

Other than that, Legion actually does have a lot to offer, but I can't support a game where the devs lead with ego, lack even a modicum of foresight, steer the game straight into disastrous design decisions, and then double down on them when things go predictably wrong.

[MasterHamster]

I don't think legion is bad at all. I didn't like some things early on, and there are things I don't like, but I don't HATE anything about it. It's mostly the same as it has always been. You level, you PVP, you raid, you do dailies. Rep grinds, gear upgrades.

Player mentality is a much bigger issue than individual game systems at this point. WoW has gone through so many paradigm design changes that the people who are left are all upset about something. AP system? How dare Blizzard have a grindy system that I can not cap in a month? RNG upgrade system? Blizzard forcing me to run every WQ and run M+. A very sizeable chunk of the playerbase that remains HATE grinds and farms... they hate that other players who spend more time and effort (outside of raids) are actually noticeably more powerful than them... in an MMO.

There's no way to find a balance that fits everyone. Even less so when you come to terms with the fact that players are bad game designers. You ask raiders what they want in regards to loot and all they say is "More!", and those few that say "Is it such a good idea to have bosses drop even more loot, especially now when pretty much every item is put to use?" are shunned. I mean who doesn't want more loot? Artificial prolonging of content!!1 Then people get geared way, way faster and spend even more time waiting for the next raid.

The people complaining about doing WQs for the chance of an upgrade and whine about repetition aren't considering what'd happen if they no longer needed AP, WF/TF system wasn't ingame, and BiS legendaries were sold by a vendor. They'd be standing idle in Dalaran months ago. If you want very accessible content like today, you can't be surprised that Blizzard (or any MMO dev) needs to use ways to make sure players aren't "done" in mere weeks.

But it's easier to just say "give me choices, don't make it mandatory"
And then we get another WoD with the worst apathy the game has ever seen because everything "grindy" and "mandatory" was removed, and along with it we saw 5 million subs lost.

[IceMan1763]

Player mentality is a much bigger issue than individual game systems at this point.

Do you work for Blizzard? Incredibly poor design decisions which are hated by large swaths of the playerbase are not the players fault. It's messages like these that give ego maniacal devs permission to double down, rather than change course or reconsider a "feature" that was unpopular from the start.

You can point to any decision made by the devs and say "the players asked for it", because inevitably a small chunk of them did. It's the job of the devs to make decisions which are good for the game as a whole. I, and many others, think certain decisions like RNG gone mad, legiondaries, and attempting to "cap" the AP system through exponential scaling were VERY poor decisions. Many of these decisions received what I would consider a large volume of negative feedback from announcement all the way up to today which was ignored by the dev team and still is, for the most part.

In regard to WOD, it was severely lacking in content (even compared to its predecessor, MOP) and what little content there was didn't strike a chord with the playerbase. The big drop in players almost directly coincided with perhaps the worst "content patch" ever, the infamous selfie patch. I think it was also the start of a trend with flying where the devs decided to pick fights with the playerbase over their pet philosophies in the face of tremendous negative feedback. I firmly believe that most of the playerbase was not calling out for grindy as hell systems like AP when they asked for "content", however. I predict there will be even less players in WOW by June as there were at the end of WOD.

[MasterHamster]

Do you work for Blizzard? Incredibly poor design decisions which are hated by large swaths of the playerbase are not the players fault. It's messages like these that give ego maniacal devs permission to double down, rather than change course or reconsider a "feature" that was unpopular from the start.

Sad to see that this is your reaction to a post that tries to argue from a game design PoV. And on what basis do you claim these features are so hated and unpopular? Because of echo chambers? Because you've sat a few times in guild chat complaining about how you have to have 54 traits to be competitive?

After the spectacular failure of WoD that listened way too much on people that hated on 'mandatory chores' and saying that things like factions, archeology, professions etc should all be 'optional', it's easy to see that players just shout for short-term gratification and not long term.

Why do you think things like drop rates, items required for crafting, rep awarded for tasks, amount of AP required per trait, or similar number-tuning are never directly in the hand of players? Because they always ask for more, faster, now. D3 had a weekend with double droprates on legendaries and guess what, players immediately set that new rate in stone and Blizzard was pressured to keep it. However to be fair, in that case it was clear that overall, most peoples opinion was that the new rate felt a lot better. However, naturally, if Blizzard had another double drop weekend, it'd just happen again.

Always giving players what they think they want will not preserve game longevity for long.

You can point to any decision made by the devs and say "the players asked for it", because inevitably a small chunk of them did. It's the job of the devs to make decisions which are good for the game as a whole. I, and many others, think certain decisions like RNG gone mad, legiondaries, and attempting to "cap" the AP system through exponential scaling were VERY poor decisions. Many of these decisions received what I would consider a large volume of negative feedback from announcement all the way up to today which was ignored by the dev team and still is, for the most part.

I don't think, for example, that players asked for the overall lower droprates we have in Legion compared to WoD. If, pure speculation on these numbers, drop rates used to be around 35% in personal loot mode, it's probably now closer to 25%. This is not part of an evil scheme, this is pacing. It's just one among hundreds of factors that sets how quickly players progress. Why aren't bonus rolls guaranteed loot? Because a) speeds up gearing too much overall, b) creates weird player behaviour since players always strive to be most efficient.

You remember how people talked about Valor caps? How they complained that they "had to cap every week or I was permanently behind"? For what it's designed to do, the AP system is working out exceptionally well. But yeah, there will always be people complaining about it. Welcome to having 10 million people with opinions.

In regard to WOD, it was severely lacking in content (even compared to its predecessor, MOP) and what little content there was didn't strike a chord with the playerbase. The big drop in players almost directly coincided with perhaps the worst "content patch" ever, the infamous selfie patch. I think it was also the start of a trend with flying where the devs decided to pick fights with the playerbase over their pet philosophies in the face of tremendous negative feedback. I firmly believe that most of the playerbase was not calling out for grindy as hell systems like AP when they asked for "content", however. I predict there will be even less players in WOW by June as there were at the end of WOD.

No... the drop was an accelerating exodus that started very early in WoD, as people quickly came to the realization that after spending a couple of afternoons in dungeons, they were effectively out of content that progressed their characters other than raids, and endlessly sending out garrison missions. Thanks to MoP feedback, pretty much all world content stopped being relevant the moment you hit 100. This prompted Blizzard to make desperate last minute changes to 6.2, things they probably didn't originally plan on. This was still during the flight debacle, heavily inforced by the fact that without the things players called "mandatory chores" in MoP, meant that WoD lacked any kind of rewarding world content, so the whole "We want players IN the world, not ABOVE it", fell completely flat as people had nearly zero reason to ever leave their garrison.

Players don't explicitly ASK for grindy systems. They do however WANT systems that makes sure that they have ways to progress.
WoW had been dead many years ago if Blizzard just allowed instant gratification to dictate their design choices.

[Deleted]

My issue is actually removal of gear in pvp. So many legendaries out there, but cannot use in pvp.
Add removal of food buffs etc to this.
I think that casual bgs should be the place where anything goes, and just have restrictions to rated pvp.
It was so much fun even to raid when you knew that you could use some strong piece in pvp.

[Akka]

I think the fact that this is probably the only expansion since wrath where there is one giant looming issue instead of several shows progress has been made.

Not necessarily. An obvious problem attracts attention and overshadow the others, but it doesn't mean the others stop to exist or to have influence on the game, just that the focus is elsewhere.
Also, people are often not very good at analyzing mechanisms in-depth and looking past the first layer. The true root problems in WoW, which has caused countless attempts at Blizzard to find systems to keep people interested, are that power inflation is vastly exagerated and the content is too quickly consumed. Both problems feeding on each other to make it worse.
You can trace nearly all other design flaws to these two points.

[Orby]

What LEgion has this guy been playing for it to be called "bad" lol

[Dangg]

Sad to see that this is your reaction to a post that tries to argue from a game design PoV. And on what basis do you claim these features are so hated and unpopular? Because of echo chambers? Because you've sat a few times in guild chat complaining about how you have to have 54 traits to be competitive?

No idea maybe because devs addressed that the current AP system has problems in a really long bluepost about a week ago.....?

No no, mmo-c and every other WoW forum is just a hive mind echo chamber and every single report of player's dislike and quitting over AP is just small sample size anecdotal evidence.