Concordance of the Legionfall..see you next expansion...

[Nevcairiel]

Social pressure and competitiveness.

The new numbers will ensure that no-one can practically max it in any decent time, and that even if you farm much less you won't be very far behind, but only a a few ranks at best, and if you want to catch up, you can get very close in rank again. So if anything, it should improve the aspects of social pressure and competitiveness.

On top of all that, Blizzard will also know that no-one can practically max it, so they have to design raids with a more realitic expectation of artifact level in mind, further reducing the "problems" with the old AP max level.

[rda]

And the members find guilds that doesn't set expectations that no one but the unemployed can meet.

Go and find raiding guilds without social pressure to "keep your gear up to date". You will find that they either don't raid or constantly try to raid but lose players to other guilds that actually raid.

[MasterHamster]

Mythic Helya.

What ultimately beat M-Helya was gear upgrades. Much higher impact than every roster member pushing 50->54 (at that raiding level)

Yep, because guilds who break up after several years due to bad game design is where this game is currently heading.

Once upon a time, the response to things like these from the community was "adapt"
Today it's complain until things that take time are removed, as Blizzard faces a community that can't restrain itself, and any grind that awards character power is called "mandatory"

What an MMO

[rda]

The new numbers will ensure that no-one can practically max it in any decent time, and that even if you farm much less you won't be very far behind, but only a a few ranks at best, and if you want to catch up, you can get very close in rank again. So if anything, it should improve the aspects of social pressure and competitiveness.

On top of all that, Blizzard will also know that no-one can practically max it, so they have to design raids with a more realitic expectation of artifact level in mind, further reducing the "problems" with the old AP max level.

I don't think the tuning of rewards will improve social pressure, because the percentages are still big enough to matter (more than the difference between 50% and 95% percentile) and Blizzard will keep them that way.

But my main gripe isn't even that. It's that instead of adding new gameplay, they continue adding new levels / difficulty modes to existing content as if that was equally interesting. They are going to find out that no, cheap tricks like that don't keep players occupied for long, and Legion is going to lose as many players proportionally as WoD did.

[Deleted]

What ultimately beat M-Helya was gear upgrades. Much higher impact than every roster member pushing 50->54 (at that raiding level)

Do you even raid? What ultimately beat mythic Helya was a hefty nerf which brought this boss down to beatable levels. I doubt you've ever seen even P1 of this boss pre nerf, so why do you even comment on it.

Once upon a time, the response to things like these from the community was "adapt"
Today it's complain until things that take time are removed

What an MMO

There's no reason to adapt to pathetic game stretching systems like this, because WoW became big because it cut the grind-requirements and enovated the genre towards lighter schedules.

[kamuimac]

And this information is from where... ? Surely not from one of their blue posts, more likely out of your ass. Their solution to AP grind is introducing more AP grind...

its a PR nightmare in making - what players see is basickly "you hated AP grind ? well then well toss even more hardcore AP grind at you "

at this point it look like they dont want to make 8.0 just end wow with legion.

[rda]

There's no reason to adapt to pathetic game stretching systems like this, because WoW became big because it cut the grind-requirements and enovated the genre towards lighter schedules.

Exactly.

WoW became big because it was DIFFERENT from those other MMOs with endless mundane grinds of "please kill these guys a thousand more times and have a chance to improve your grade (ie, through materials / crafting)". In Legion, WoW is morphing into them. This is beyond stupid.

[MasterHamster]

its a PR nightmare in making - what players see is basickly "you hated AP grind ? well then well toss even more hardcore AP grind at you "

at this point it look like they dont want to make 8.0 just end wow with legion.

And what the people inbetween sees is that overall the AP system is working out very well, but some key issues like people just farming MoS, and large power difference between 34-54, are addressed. Design-goal of keeping AP upgrades omnipresent in Legion remains.

[kamuimac]

Once upon a time, the response to things like these from the community was "adapt"

once upon a time there was this amazing game called everquest

it was innovative and players loved it

and then came wow - at first called to casual by "Real mmo players" to even play

and killed everquest because what people really like was "casual " approach

that they grinds like this are bound to fail

this is not korean mmo targeted at koreans who love grinding - and it will trip over this

[Deleted]

What ultimately beat M-Helya was gear upgrades. Much higher impact than every roster member pushing 50->54 (at that raiding level)

Looking at the mythic race, Star Augur, Elisande, Gul'dan and probably Krosus would not have been killable without 54 traits so I think it´s fair to say they are tuned around it. Can I prove it? No of course not, what kind of question is that.

BUT you could ask the same thing about flasks, pots, food, etc., you could never prove that the content is tuned with them in mind. In the end Blizzard knows what probably all competitive guilds will do and tunes the content accordingly, would the content not been tuned around 54 traits, it would have either lasted a day like in EN or wouldn´t have been killable.

[kamuimac]

The new numbers will ensure that no-one can practically max it in any decent time, ]

thats what old system was meant to do

i bet people in blizzard were saying "nobody sane will farm mythic + for ap"

well guess what wow playerbase did. "hey lets do 1000+ MoS it will be fuuuuuuuuuuun"

[Teri]

its a PR nightmare in making - what players see is basickly "you hated AP grind ? well then well toss even more hardcore AP grind at you "

at this point it look like they dont want to make 8.0 just end wow with legion.

Just too many different grinds and layers of RNG , combined with stupid CRZ and low pop realms aint healthy for a game at all, sure you may say 7.2 has a lot of "content", it's very much more of the core problems WoW 7.0 and 7.1 have.

Grinding once is a nightmare, alts/professions and offspecs are even far far worse, repeating dumb stuff doesnt make it good all of a sudden.

And the excuse of "you dont need to grind AP or have legendaries for dumbed down normal raids" is not a good argument I see all the time....

The game design would have been so much simpler with just 1 difficulty/size... WoW branched out more and more each expansion to cater for differnt types of player but it's imploding the playerbase and spreading it too thin.

I just laugh at the thought of 8.0, because every legion patch so far seems to be about Damage control, rather then improving the game.

[rda]

this is not korean mmo targeted at koreans who love grinding - and it will trip over this

Besides, if someone wants Korean level grinds, why not play Korean MMOs that do it infinitely better than WoW - with layers upon layers of unbelievably small chances, with important reverences towards crafting (which integrates the grind into the body of the game and makes everybody involved whether they like it or not, giving the grind some sense and making it a big deal), and with complete and utter domination as a reward??? If WoW wants to go that route, not only will it lose existing players who aren't into that, but it will also lose completely to those who were doing this crap for decades.

[MasterHamster]

Looking at the mythic race, Star Augur, Elisande, Gul'dan and probably Krosus would not have been killable without 54 traits so I think it´s fair to say they are tuned around it. Can I prove it? No of course not, what kind of question is that.

BUT you could ask the same thing about flasks, pots, food, etc., you could never prove that the content is tuned with them in mind. In the end knows Blizzard what probably all competitive guilds will do and tunes the content accordingly, would the content not been tuned around 54 traits, it would have either lasted a day like in EN or wouldn´t have been killable.

What ultimately kills bosses is a mix out of all these factors, gear, artifacts, skill, communication, roster composition, racials, food buffs, what-have-you and pointing towards a Mythic first race (one lockout, so very little gear progression) and saying people needed capped artifacts is incredible disingenious.

What I don't understand is, from where comes this idea that all Mythic bosses should be tuned so that they are juuuuuuuust killable week 1? Why is this the design goal? It's sad to see that every new tier is 'cleared' week 1.

[rda]

What I don't understand is, from where comes this idea that all Mythic bosses should be tuned so that they are juuuuuuuust killable week 1? Why is this the design goal?

Who says it is? It's a non-sequitur to what is discussed in the thread.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

Rofl omg,

I like how the three white responses say the exact same thing we're all saying, to them, immediately, before they even completed their post, and their three responses are "lol fuck you we know this is fucking anal for you all fuck you lol."

They even want to claim noticing an RNG proc and snapshotting it is an awesome goal.

This is the most rngish expansion, that has ever existed. Even the damage you deal is rng. Even the healing you'll deal is rng.

top kek, I wanted to see all you scrubs get wiped out of my game anyway. Go away you dirty shitstain elf players.

[Sarevokcz]

There are better methods to develop a character in rpg game than endless AP grind, WoW is a full time job now.

1. Need to do WQ for chest
2. Need to do random BG for AP
3. Need to win BG for AP/Quest
4. Need to run EN/TV/NH Normal and Heroics to proc leg (5 till now, 4 utility and 1 QoL)
5. Need to do Mythic+ for weekly chest
6. Need to kill all Danger, Wanted world bosses for leg proc chance.
7. Need to farm gold to survive until next raid (BS/Miner)

There is no time to enjoy the game atm. If i won't do this I'll be even more behind others, especially those with BiS legos.

Umm, and I have 2 alts yet...

"need to"? only thing Im compelled to do is one mythic 15 per week, its an alt that i switched to as main recently, that started later than old main, never really had time to grind AP on him anyway, dont do WQs with him on any regular basis since december, dont raid NH/tov anymore, unless were going with social group to chillax and have fun... And Im at 51, almost 52 traits in mainspec and enough to get by in offspec, raid mythic NH with zero dps issues caused by lack of three traits (i can always improve my gameplay, that will be far better dps improvement anyway) with three legs and 4th so far away I see no reason to go farm it, it will come eventually anyway

But I can pace myself to not burn out, apparently plenty of people cant...

[Soluna]

Yeah, this is the reason I will give up on this expansion almost entirely... I raided mythic before quitting in the middle of ToV Mythic, and of course I have to strive to be the best for the good of me and my group, but when I have to spend so much time in wow to be competitive that it feels like a full time job, with no enjoyment, then that's where blizzard crosses the line, because lets face it, no real progression guild wants you unless you are as good as you can be, they won't let you in their runs if you play the raids only every week.
Many of you say 'You don't need full traits to do decent dps and yeah, that's true but if a guild is recruiting 3 people, and there are 4 of us that want to join, and I am performing on 90+ percentile on most mythic fights while being 100k-200k dps behind dpsers that perform on the 80th percentile, then of course the guild will pick them. I would pick them too. But previous expansions, as long as you were doing your raids, skill was the most important factor in dps, not endless amount of shitty grinding. I was top dps by logging in the raid hours and gearing up along with others, while the rest of the time I would mount hunt, have fun and socialise with people, etc etc.
Now all I can do is GRIND like there is no tomorrow, because that's what everyone who knows how to play HAS to do. And it's such a shame, because this expansion is so amazing with class specific content and makes all classes look sweet in so many ways, but it asks you to either a) Focus on main like its your fucking job, and have no proper alts. b) Fuck your main off, don't get any proper progression, but have a bunch of sweet geared alts with cool mounts, c) Play the game 24/7 like a damn no life, have bis on main, and cool geared/mounted alts, all 12 classes to 110 and finally d) Unsub or stay unsubbed.
I have picked option d) since the middle of December, and it looks like it was the right choice. Now don't reply to me with any bullshit like 'If you have time to comment on MMO-champion then go and play the game or do something productive!!!11!!1!', simply because you can check my activity feed and see that its low overall, I just happen to see an interesting thread sometimes when I check the site for WoW news... like the dreaded news we got today.

[ls-]

Rofl omg,

I like how the three white responses say the exact same thing we're all saying, to them, immediately, before they even completed their post, and their three responses are "lol fuck you we know this is fucking anal for you all fuck you lol."

They even want to claim noticing an RNG proc and snapshotting it is an awesome goal.

This is the most rngish expansion, that has ever existed. Even the damage you deal is rng. Even the healing you'll deal is rng.

top kek, I wanted to see all you scrubs get wiped out of my game anyway. Go away you dirty shitstain elf players.

That's literally how it's been working since the dawn of RPGs, your damage/heal is a random number within a certain range

[Taladendren]

Who says it is? It's a non-sequitur to what is discussed in the thread.

How? The whole point is that the "grind" is non-existent if you just play the game and collect AP because there is no rush. It's the rush that makes people feel they need to grind.

The people saying ToS will be tuned around having a max-level artifact just seem out of touch with reality. Sure, mythic Nighthold probably was... but EN wasn't and neither was ToV. Blizzard screws plenty up, but they're not braindead - ToS isn't going to be tuned around it. And the .87% (.01/1.14) power increase from going from 52 to 54 traits (the hardest part of the grind) to clear mythic NH is completely outdone by waiting for one more week of gear.

So it really is not that bad for NH. And it's going to be better in ToS because they're tuning down the reward for grinding extra levels by a lot. So, sure, you can do that extra 20 hours of grinding maw of souls every week to stay 2% ahead of me doing a handful of keys every week. But you're only ever going to be 2% ahead. If you go crazy, you might be 2.5% ahead.. after that, you're grinding another 60 hours of maw a week to get to 3%. Most guilds, even hardcore ones, know that's a waste of time.

35 traits for Guarm when he was new was tough. 52 for NH wasn't that bad. ToS is going to be better because of diminishing returns. What's the problem?