Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Not A Cat]

Because of these people complaining that they're forced to grind, those that don't mind the grind won't be able to do it.

Don't lower the goal post because you don't want to put in the same amount of effort.

[Shadowman 747]

But they have claimed it due to burnout, which is what is happening now.

Attributing burnout TO BLIZZARD is the new thing. But if burnout was such a problem, the solution would be: Stop playing so much. You are likely playing on a level that the game is not intended to be played on. (Such as, playing with multiple characters at the same gear, item, artifact level. Which was ALWAYS possible, it only RECENTLY became more expected of people - I didn't even start hearing of it outside the world first race until BRF in WoD.)

Which, once again, you STILL don't have to do. That is yet another player-made progression tool which helps guilds progress faster - Which was previously done by recruiting more people, which introduced risk in that not everyone who is in your guild plays at the same level. So it was actually YET ANOTHER NON BLIZZARD CHANGE which introduced split runs for people, not Artifact Power.

You shouldn't scrap a good tool just because some people are going to use it to death. There is no solution that Blizzard can implement. Players need to implement the solution, by excersizing a little self control and maybe not playing the game as much.

Such a wild idea, I know.

Raid ready alts aren't a new concept. at all. They have been an active and mandatory part of high end raiding since Wrath. If you think this is new, you're uninformed and wrong.

The reason it's coming to light now is because this aspect of hardcore play, that has been established for 8 years now, has been made exponentially harder than it has been in the past, while still maintaining it's place as a requirement in hardcore play. Nothing has changed except the requirements for your characters to stay relevant. And the amount of content you need to run to be relevant is beyond anything seen in the past. It's harder to be hardcore right now than it was in vanilla or burning crusade, expansions known for the oldschool style grinds.

[Relapses]

TOP DEFINITION
Retardiness
When you forget essential stuff because you are in a hurry. Retarded behavior combined with being late.

yes exactly learn english phrases

Did you really just quote UrbanDictionary for a fictional word and tell me to "learn English phrases"? The level of your ignorance is honestly astounding.

Sounds like you should find a different guild that doesn't feel that way then. That's really what it comes down to.

Right. Because telling me to fuck off and find another guild is productive when trying to discuss the very real problems people who raid at a Mythic level face? This mentality is exactly why this topic is so fucking divisive. There's more at play here than a simple inability to control oneself. It's a problem endemic of Mythic raiding in general. I'd think the better solution is to simply eliminate Mythic raiding altogether, which is unfortunate because I really enjoy it. But if it means keeping a system similar to Legion's, I doubt it'll sustain itself into another expansion.

[Osmeric]

Personal responsibility, we hardly knew ya.

The thing is, responsibility flows in the direction of money. The game designers are the ones being paid, which makes them responsible.

Look at it this way: suppose players are burning out and quitting. Management comes down to the devs and asks WTF is going on. The devs respond "players are burning out, but it's their fault, not ours." Do you think management is going to accept that explanation? No, management is going to ask how the devs are going to change the game design to fix the problem.

It's the responsibility of the dev team to design a game that achieves business goals, and failure to do that cannot be pawned off on the customers, regardless of what the customers do.

Now, it could be that the burnout is affecting such a small number of players that it doesn't really affect business goals. Management might then ask "so why is this mythic content there at all, if its design affects so few players?" The devs cannot have very tightly tuned mythic content without taking responsibility for what that level of tuning causes its target audience to do.

[Nosdrone]

I've been done since Thanksgiving. I find no problem in voicing your displeasure about something.

So you've been done with World of Warcraft for 4 months now... however, you are still on MMO Champion and voicing your displeasure every day?

That's not healthy. Your addiction and infatuation with these pixels and world is unnatural. Instead of dwelling on past bad habits and not getting your "fix," I highly suggest taking up a new hobby. Something that draws you away from brooding like a heroin junkie waiting for his next hit.

https://www.meetup.com/ is a good place to start. Good luck in your future endeavors!

[Ianus]

Did you really just quote UrbanDictionary for a fictional word and tell me to "learn English phrases"? The level of your ignorance is honestly astounding.



Right. Because telling me to fuck off and find another guild is productive when trying to discuss the very real problems people who raid at a Mythic level face? This mentality is exactly why this topic is so fucking divisive. There's more at play here than a simple inability to control oneself. It's a problem endemic of Mythic raiding in general. I'd think the better solution is to simply eliminate Mythic raiding altogether, which is unfortunate because I really enjoy it. But if it means keeping a system similar to Legion's, I doubt it'll sustain itself into another expansion.

and lvl of your butthurtness, another fictional word is over 9000.. no one is forcing you to play 80 hours for proggression, do split runs or getting out of work to raid ..if you cant manage you life and you get burnt out because of it, you need help..

[Kraenen]

Or it'll fix itself over time by getting rid of the people who are like you.

Mythic is fine. It's the people forcing themselves into nigh-unsustainable situations to continue 'being competitive' that ruins it.

I really don't see why people think doing the same repetitive, high-fail scenario every night for several hours is unreasonably burn-out prone.

[Deleted]

The issue I have with Ion's statement is that it's not just raid leaders requiring you spend a ridiculous amount of time grinding shit, it's that Mythic raiding in general has a bit of cognitive dissonance where if you're not on the same level as the people who no life it, you're not as valuable to the raid. (ie, you're graded by the amount of time you spend playing the game rather than how good you are at it.)

Isn't that precisely the kind of behaviour that Blizz has been encouraging with the ridiculous RNG factor in Legion?

[Nosdrone]

The thing is, responsibility flows in the direction of money. The game designers are the ones being paid, which makes them responsible.

Look at it this way: suppose players are burning out and quitting. Management comes down to the devs and asks WTF is going on. The devs respond "players are burning out, but it's their fault, not ours." Do you think management is going to accept that explanation? No, management is going to ask how the devs are going to change the game design to fix the problem.

It's the responsibility of the dev team to design a game that achieves business goals, and failure to do that cannot be pawned off on the customers, regardless of what the customers do.

Now, it could be that the burnout is affecting such a small number of players that it doesn't really affect business goals. Management might then ask "so why is this mythic content there at all, if its design affects so few players?" The devs cannot have very tightly tuned mythic content without taking responsibility for what that level of tuning causes its target audience to do.

It's not the devs fault that a couple hundred Poopsock McNojobs have zero responsibility, no lives, and can play a game for 80 hours a week.

Just have to ignore those folks and continue rolling along. Millions > hundreds.

[Relapses]

Or it'll fix itself over time by getting rid of the people who are like you.

Mythic is fine. It's the people forcing themselves into nigh-unsustainable situations to continue 'being competitive' that ruins it.

Does the possibility of a solution which doesn't involve "getting rid of" people who enjoy an aspect of the game even cross your mind?

[Relapses]

Boo hoo you have to earn some artifact power that gives you an unnoticable DPS increase. Do you want a medal?

It should be noted that the difference in DPS between 34 and 54 traits is hardly unnoticable. That says something about the current version of AP which may in fact be corrected in 7.2. But it doesn't stop Ion's shifting of blame onto raid leaders from being any less disingenuous.

[Devilyaki]

Guess mythics are to hard on people, best just remove them all and only have lfr from now on lol

[Sosoulsu]

Or it'll fix itself over time by getting rid of the people who are like you.

Mythic is fine. It's the people forcing themselves into nigh-unsustainable situations to continue 'being competitive' that ruins it.

Seems like that's been going on for years. What're they down to now? 5m? From 10m?
I know I personally stopped playing because of the extensive pruning done in WoD, and I haven't bothered with Legion because they continued pruning such that almost all the specs I used to like are unrecognizable, and the extensive RNG and weapon-iLvl grinding is just not the WoW I want to play.

[Relapses]

Yes, but not when that aspect of the game is nigh-unsustainable and prone to yet another WoD expansion in the level of "There's nothing to do."

I'd MUCH rather have Artifact Power and less undesirable players than WoD again.

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Is it really that difficult to believe that Blizzard can create content which appeases both casual and hardcore players without negatively affecting one subsection of its playerbase?

[cFortyfive]

cry me more, another junkie that thinks he is called out and cant handle Ion's truth.. butthurt is real

Uhh that really stings. No seriously still laughing there are you from chap

I raided for server firsts throughout the entirety of Cataclysm in Heroic modes. We never got them, but we damn sure did try, and were second on the server to kill Heroic Deathwing.

Ahh cataclysm - the golden age of ez mode raids where I spend less time to clear a whole first tier with purple rankings than it took me now to get bis legendaries for one spec and a second artifact.

Gearing a second spec takes less time than ever.

Legendaries and items with the correct stats and the ap. No idea why you'd even bother playing a spec without some of the better legendaries. Eternal hunt for decent trinkets. Why not ask say warlocks how much easier than ever it was to grind a couple weapons and legendaries to be able to play your other specs on a level that makes sense in a somewhat competitive manner.

You need

food duration and enchants ? Seriously ? Why not mention gems :rolleyes. The better potions are still quite expensive. Luckily that's less of an issue considering most raiders probably sold tons kills to plebs.

[Relapses]

Isn't that precisely the kind of behaviour that Blizz has been encouraging with the ridiculous RNG factor in Legion?

Yes? That's part of my criticism of what Ion said.

[Nosdrone]

Seems like that's been going on for years. What're they down to now? 5m? From 10m?
I know I personally stopped playing because of the extensive pruning done in WoD, and I haven't bothered with Legion because they continued pruning such that almost all the specs I used to like are unrecognizable, and the extensive RNG and weapon-iLvl grinding is just not the WoW I want to play.

You haven't bothered with Legion?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...5#post43926535

Then what was this?

Junkies, man. Even when they aren't 'playing the game' they still need their fix. MMO Champion is like an opium den.

[Ianus]

Uhh that really stings. No seriously still laughing there are you from chap

Ahh cataclysm - the golden age of ez mode raids where I spend less time to clear a whole first tier with purple rankings than it took me now to get bis legendaries for one spec and a second artifact.

Legendaries and items with the correct stats and the ap. No idea why you'd even bother playing a spec without some of the better legendaries. Eternal hunt for decent trinkets. Why not ask say warlocks how much easier than ever it was to grind a couple weapons and legendaries to be able to play your other specs on a level that makes sense in a somewhat competitive manner.

food duration and enchants ? Seriously ? Why not mention gems :rolleyes. The better potions are still quite expensive. Luckily that's less of an issue considering most raiders probably sold tons kills to plebs.

if you arent butthurt you wouldnt reply you would just ignore so you are butthurt.. take care.. and for you guys that cant handle what ion's said i would put as solution account wide limit to attempts first 2-3 weeks for release of tier just to hear you whine like in wrath

[cFortyfive]

And people who haven't been farming Maw, but have been playing, are at AK 25 and easily past 34 traits by now. Maybe not at 54, but definitely well towards it.

Hell, I started a shaman alt and leveled to 110, and had him at 26 traits in legit one day at AK 15. You're making a mountain out of a grain of sand.

Well and that's why you aren't finished or close to finishing nighthold mythic.

Artifact Power is a push towards casual play which hurt the hardcore playerbase. To remove it and please the hardcore playerbase, upsets the casual playerbase by ruining what was a good system for them.

You act as if some small caps, better catchup, or easier acquisition from content other than mindless spam of instances a chimp could play would ruin anything for the casual player.

I'll spell it out for you::

Sure buddy - put your money where your mouth is and just put together a ragtag group of your peers and show me how awesome you are going into nighthold mythic with sephuz only and your 38 traits.

All you have to do is get a little artifact power. But apparently that's FAR too much, and you say Cataclysm was the time of ez mode raids.

Show me your 54 traits and legendaries in time for helya progression and we'll talk again about your belt buckle.

if you arent butthurt you wouldnt reply you would just ignore so you are butthurt.. take care

No sorry anus using butthurt is too funny to ignore. I know it's childish but hey who cares.

[Relapses]

Yes it is that difficult, because you're talking two opposite sides of the spectrum.

If you push towards hardcore, you hurt the casual playerbase.
If you push towards casual, you hurt the hardcore playerbase.

Artifact Power is a push towards casual play which hurt the hardcore playerbase. To remove it and please the hardcore playerbase, upsets the casual playerbase by ruining what was a good system for them.

You literally can't have it both ways.

When did I say anything about removing AP? That's not the only solution. As I mentioned, 7.2 may fix my biggest gripe with the current system. As long as Blizzard isn't balancing encounters around the idea that players raiding at Mythic levels will have already grinded a ludicrous amount of AP, it isn't nearly as big of an issue.