Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Dizzeeyooo]

Then you are doing something wrong. You can do the same in legion as in MoP. I think it's you who has changed in some way.

what should I be doing then, outside of +15 once a week and NH once a week? what else has targetable upgrades for me to progress my character?

I'm not quite sure what your argument is here, aren't all bosses just differently looking with differently looking abilities from each other? And world bosses have never been difficult.

I had no argument here, I was replying to your argument that a different looking boss model every week somehow equals new content every week

[Vintersol]

what should I be doing then, outside of +15 once a week and NH once a week? what else has targetable upgrades for me to progress my character?

What have you done in MoP to progress your character? You said you have played the entire expansion which had far less options for character progression.

[DesoPL]

Typical thing from Blizz, but you know what?

As casual player, who do everyday the same so WQ's exping alt eventually some older content. Now i feel burned out... Guys truth must be said, Blizz is done! Blizz is done with WoW, SC2, D3 and HOTS. They care now only for HS and OV seriously so i should not take anymore devs trash talk serious.

[Nhodjin]

Everyone needs to stop complaining and address the purple elephant in the room.

People need to sit back and re-evaluate their life choices if you are seriously playing a game 30+ hours a week.

If you removed playing a game with drinking you would call them an alcoholic.

If you removed drinking with shooting up they would be a drug addict.

This game was never in 12 years intended to be a full time job for the masses. Stop trying to justify your addiction.

With streaming/youtube and sponsors it can and has become a job for some tho, especially those at the top

[Deleted]

Everyone needs to stop complaining and address the purple elephant in the room.

People need to sit back and re-evaluate their life choices if you are seriously playing a game 30+ hours a week.

If you removed playing a game with drinking you would call them an alcoholic.

If you removed drinking with shooting up they would be a drug addict.

This game was never in 12 years intended to be a full time job for the masses. Stop trying to justify your addiction.

I wouldn't put it so shrewdly, but it's the same point I'm trying to make.

[Osmeric]

For their business model, sure. But the raiding scene in the U.S., for example, is in utter shambles. Maybe that's not relevant any more, but there are still competitive players out there, and they'll seek out other places to be competitive in, if WoW doesn't fit the bill any more. Sure, maybe raiders quitting won't be as harsh a thing to Blizzard as casuals unsubbing for 10 months out of 12, but it's obviously relevant to those of us who've been "competitive" for nearly a decade with about the same amount of time invested.

It may indeed be true that the highest end raiders are not important, but then why is Blizzard still designing a raid mode for them? Tune mythic to M EN level (or easier) and the grind problem largely goes away. The highest end raiders get bored rather than burned out, but so what?

[Tehshocka]

With streaming/youtube and sponsors it can and has become a job for some tho, especially those at the top

You are literally talking about less than 100 people over millions. Stop trying to justify it.

[Deleted]

Problem is that back in the day you could play around enjoying the content at any pace you felt like receiving vanity staff or sometimes rep rewards but that was by no means related to the high end pve or pvp content. Remember that reputation needs and attunement needed to enter instances was something that was regarded ineffective in the past.
At the moment they have given us great content to progress around and many things to do but hell everything seems attached to high end pve and pvp content so u cannot take it slowly but rather have to rush into it.

Maybe mythic rl should stop asking for consumables as well then ? I mean come on everyone knows that the toon has to be perfectly tuned before entering a high end instance. At the moment this requires apart from consumables , BiS legendaries, Maxed AP, BiS gear that can come from a variety of sources that on top of that are repeatable during the week.
There are no excuses Ion : To get in high end content at the moment players have to go through the whole content you have given us. Thanks for the content it is a lot, its nicely designed and sometimes fun but u should really consider next expansion to make it somehow less relevant with high end pve and pvp.

[M1r4g3]

If a dog is aggressive and bites someone do you blame the dog or the shitty owner/environment it grew up in?
If you improve the environment would the dog change for the better?
Thats like basic psychology how can a game designer not know that...
(Chose dogs instead of humans because our relationship closer resembles that due to our limited input and their ''omnipotence'')
My point is we act according to the environment we are in.

[Celadir]

Why not just put a cap on AP per week and be done with the whole thing? So I can put the rest on my off specs...or play my alt for a bit... or just bank the rest waiting for the next cap...

Then blizzard wont have to tune bosses around a certain trait and everything will get easier each week.

I've thought of this since the start of the expansion. Cap AP weekly so everyone, if they're consistently doing content, will grow the same rate. Also, points gained for artifact levels is spec-wide so you don't have the issue of 47 points for this spec and only 10 points for another one. Not everyone may agree with the AP idea, but as a druid I wish I didn't have to invest more time b/c I swap between balance for raiding, guardian for M+, resto for M+/raiding, and feral for PvP.

[Zanaku]

Everyone needs to stop complaining and address the purple elephant in the room.

People need to sit back and re-evaluate their life choices if you are seriously playing a game 30+ hours a week.

If you removed playing a game with drinking you would call them an alcoholic.

If you removed drinking with shooting up they would be a drug addict.

This game was never in 12 years intended to be a full time job for the masses. Stop trying to justify your addiction.

1. I think people do have a misconception of what it is like to play at the top end. Yes they do play 40+ hours a week for about 2 weeks. Then that drastically falls off to normal times like everyone else usually. Then they spend a lot of time on PTR testing bosses, for strategies, and addon/weakaura development. So it isn't really an addiction, they just push really hard in the beginning. That is OK

2. They arent blaming Blizzard for choosing to play 30+hrs a week like you said. They have been doing that for many expansions. What they ARE complaining about, is that in order to keep doing what THEY enjoy doing (and what they have been doing for 12 years) now requires something that is not fun to do. Like chaining Maw of Souls. That is absolutely a game design choice on Blizzard's part. Honestly in 7.2 it looks like they have done a lot to unincentivize spamming Mythics and that is a good thing. But let's stop attacking the wrong thing here. They used to like playing the way they do, now they dont, because the made it require un-fun grinding. The same as if you like raiding once a week, but Blizzard made it so that you have to do 2hr long questline each time you wanted to raid. Yes you would be complaining about having to dedicate more time to something that isnt fun in order to do something that you have always enjoyed doing

[Jngizu]

What have you done in MoP to progress your character? You said you have played the entire expansion which had far less options for character progression.

Don't worry, he has no answer, all he wants is to complain. Legion has issues but saying there were more things to do during MoP (at least when it came to character progression) is the most asinine shit ever.

[Deleted]

Why not just put a cap on AP per week and be done with the whole thing? So I can put the rest on my off specs...or play my alt for a bit... or just bank the rest waiting for the next cap...

Then blizzard wont have to tune bosses around a certain trait and everything will get easier each week.

Primarily because adding a cap goes against the idea of AP, that you will always obtain something for running content. For example; say that a friend wants you to join for a dungeon run, you know that you won't need the gear in there but at least you'll get some AP. As well as, if there was a cap, people who missed said cap for various reasons such as real life, would forever be behind.

[Jngizu]

Primarily because adding a cap goes against the idea of AP, that you will always obtain something for running content. For example; say that a friend wants you to join for a dungeon run, you know that you won't need the gear in there but at least you'll get some AP. As well as, if there was a cap, people who missed said cap for various reasons such as real life, would forever be behind.

Not to mention, people will just cap out in one day and complain they have nothing to do for the rest of the week like it was with the Valor system.

[Vuagnon]

Lack of re playability? I'm sorry but I'm not entirely certain of what you mean, do you mean that you don't have enough of a reason to continue to run existing content on the same character, or do you mean the incentive to run the content on an alt is diminished because you're already running it on your main?

1) The world quests still provide AP, resources, gold and serves as a means of completing emissary quests, their item rewards become obsolete quickly though yes and your suggestion could probably make them somewhat useful.

2) I don't think the Legendaries were intended to keep people around the initial stages, they are intended to be a fun additional thing you can play around with when you tackle different forms of content. As you obtain more legendaries, you will probably end up switching them around depending on boss or the content you run.

3) The RNG can be frustrating yes, but I think it's important to accept from the very start that the system is not designed for you to ever obtain BIS, because that would mean you were done with the content and wouldn't have anything else to do outside of maybe playing an alt. It's very beneficial for those who do not push the limits to the very end, as it means you always have a chance of obtaining an upgrade, even if that chance is really small.

4) I can't say I've noticed any issues like that, it's no better or worse than any other expansion I've played.

5) I think Legion has more alternative progression than any other expansion ever has, this is the first time you can truly receive upgrades outside of raids even as a raider. Choices also seem more important than ever, which spec you focus your AP in first, which spec you receive legendaries for first both mean that you had to make a choice in which spec you wanted to play. Any previous expansion and you had people switching between all three specs depending on the boss, making your choice of spec completely redundant.

6) I have no real answer to this.

I remain convinced that it is up to every person to take their own responsibility in how much time they put into the game. Just because the game allows you to play to no end, doesn't mean that you necessarily should, and I don't think Blizzard is to blame for the current system. It's more of a case that it has highlighted a problem that has existed for many years.

I'm talking for main. They killed playing with an alt for people with a life.

1) When you are 54, ap means nothing. Epic drops should have been integrated into a form of contribution to make your character stronger by either enhancing your existing items or stats. It's way too stupid to make world quests to vendor epic items. Gold and resource awards aren't enough. They should have been buffed to attract end gamers. The rep items also have become meaningless. How could have they not thought about this before coming to this point? It's ridiculous.

2) How many changes would you make between your legendaries depending on the encounter? The effect isn't substantial imo. People mostly go for bis. You can swap an item occasionally of course but is it really enough? I don't think it adds too much depth. I'm not opposed to having legendaries but they were implemented without other mechanisms that would complement them. Thats why it feels like they were incentives to keep people around to buy some time because people would obviously understand that something is seriously missing at some point, which is why we are discussing it here right now.

3) Rng needs to exist. The problem is having no alternative path to decrease its impact.

4) The pathing and terrain feels like they have been trying to buy time for delaying flight. The scaling isn't satisfactory for the events going on. A larger continent and flight without time gate would be a lot better for players but greed obviously doesn't allow that to happen.

5) Recieving upgrades outside raiding is okay. However that also is completely at the mercy of rng, which is not okay. Switching specs alone isn't enough to say that there are choices to be made. The real choice should be inside a spec. A much more sophisticated talent and stat system such that there are actual ways of excelling in different areas. AP grind isn't that hard. Even if it was hard for casuals, there are also many people who don't bother swapping specs. So it's no where near enough.

6 is tied with the randomness and the boredom it creates after a certain period of time.

I don't think people should blame Blizzard because the game can be played limitlessly but because the game lacks the mechanics to make the time spent more meaningful and valuable.

[Tehshocka]

1. I think people do have a misconception of what it is like to play at the top end. Yes they do play 40+ hours a week for about 2 weeks. Then that drastically falls off to normal times like everyone else usually. Then they spend a lot of time on PTR testing bosses, for strategies, and addon/weakaura development. So it isn't really an addiction, they just push really hard in the beginning. That is OK

2. They arent blaming Blizzard for choosing to play 30+hrs a week like you said. They have been doing that for many expansions. What they ARE complaining about, is that in order to keep doing what THEY enjoy doing (and what they have been doing for 12 years) now requires something that is not fun to do. Like chaining Maw of Souls. That is absolutely a game design choice on Blizzard's part. Honestly in 7.2 it looks like they have done a lot to unincentivize spamming Mythics and that is a good thing. But let's stop attacking the wrong thing here. They used to like playing the way they do, now they dont, because the made it require un-fun grinding. The same as if you like raiding once a week, but Blizzard made it so that you have to do 2hr long questline each time you wanted to raid. Yes you would be complaining about having to dedicate more time to something that isnt fun in order to do something that you have always enjoyed doing

I 100% understand what you are trying to say here. WF Guilds are a tad different as in most of these guys are sponsored, but for the other Mythic edge plebs this is not the case.

The underlying issue is the fact that someone thinks its perfectly fine to play something of zero value for 30+ hours a week. No matter how long. You as a person are not growing AT ALL.

[Osmeric]

The exponential AK system does mean less grinding. But it has a downside: it encourages people to park alts until they have reached max AK, and only then farm AP.

I'm planning to get more characters to 110 so I can start their AK clocks ticking.

[Raelbo]

There are no excuses Ion : To get in high end content at the moment players have to go through the whole content you have given us.

And this is a problem why? Players don't burn out by doing the once off content in the game. It happens as a result of repeating content (Eg M+ Maw of Souls) beyond their capacity to cope with the load.

The "need" to farm XYZ content to death is not driven by Blizzard. It's driven by players and their "need" to win at all costs. It's the result of players not having the maturity and self control to recognise and apply a sensible limit on how much time they spend on the game (or an activity in the game).

I keep seeing this silly argument about people being burned out by doing MoS hundreds of times because Blizzard forced them to do so. I call BS on that. I can accept that making MoS slightly more lucrative than other instances is not great design, but that design "flaw" was exposed because players act like idiots, finding ways to try and game the system for maximum gain of something they actually don't need in the belief that it will help them win.

The simple fact is that getting a level 54 artifact for NH was not particularly demanding. Getting it on a bunch of alts to split split runs was demanding, but this was never a requirement to do NH. It was simply what the top end guilds felt was the most effective way to spend their time on in order to try and get ahead of their competition. And therein lies the actual crux of the problem: Guilds so hellbent on winning that they will escalate their efforts to the point the winner becomes the winner because the rest have burned themselves out. Which is fine, but I think a lot of guilds who do burn themselves out would be better off learning that sometimes it just isn't worth it. Discretion is the better part of valour.

It's infinitely better to be mature enough to realise when giving your all is not enough to win, acknowledge that you are beaten by the better player, and bow out gracefully before you burn out. Anyone in any competitive arena needs to understand what their own limits are and to stick to them and you cannot blame anyone else when you can't do that and suffer the consequences.

[Kallisto]

it's been confirmed multiple times, and even ion in this latest Q+A said it was, so i would suggest getting your facts straight before making a long winded response that is just your opinion.

No it has not been confirmed and all Ion said was that the traits were basically overpowered. The fact is people are trying to rush the fuck through the damn mythic raid when the raid is made to last until Tomb of Sargeras is released. You know the feat of strength.

[Vuagnon]

Not a fan of class halls and follower quests too btw. It would be a lot better to send players do these quests themselves and travel to different places of the world. And with meaningful rewards of course. Ap becomes obsolete, gold isn't exciting, follower items also useless after some time, raid or dungeon rewards with 20-30 lower itemlevels... That whole system is quite underwhelming and boring.