Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[Jotaux]

I'd rather see Trilliax get a buff. Chronomatic is relatively challenging for an early boss, and going from that to Trilliax then to Spellblade/Krosus etc... Buff Trilliax & put it between CA & Spellblade, rather than well below both.

You could easily give Trilliax a buff plus add 20s to krosus's enrage timer and it would still be a large jump in difficulty.

[Tojara]

I hope people realize that your iLvL actually doesn't increase all that much each week, which was true in the past. Exorsus killed Gul'dan like a month ago with a 905 equipped iLvL, our guild one month later with the exact same traits they had (54) is just half an ilvL above what they accomplished. Are we going to do the rest of the instance with that iLvL? No, our players aren't as good as theirs are nor can we field raid compositions that would give us an advantage to which we could do what they did with basically the same iLvL.

Using HFC as a comparison, we killed Mythic Archimonde about a month and a half after the WF guilds, and had like 8 or 9 iLvL higher than they did, and that would also include a power source such as the legendary ring.

I know people like to jump on Blizzard for tuning things badly, and to be fair EN was tuned way too easy, but things are tuned pretty tightly for the most part. When traits are equal, and for nearly all people doing Mythic content past to first 3, you likely don't have much room to grow in power from iLvL. While I think TF/WF are great systems for other reasons, Blizzard probably needs to tweak the reward structure some if people want iLvL to slowly overcome content.

Like in my above example. Not only were we gaining little bits of power through the ring each week, we also were actually gaining noticeable amount of iLvLs each reset. These together actually allowed us to overcome the challenges, far more organically than what we have been able to do in NH (granted NH is still a bit young). This wasn't really possible in ToV, but at least there was still room for us to grow in AP compared to WF guilds (that's if you ignore some of the class requirements that made it a lot easier).

What I think they actually need to do, and it wouldn't affect how people approach racing for WF that much, is to actually buff the drops from Mythic raiding. The current tuning would be fine if you could actually slowly out gear, my problem is that you don't actually get that much gear from Mythic before the hard bosses start setting in. The standard one higher tier of gear between similar bosses when comparing raid difficulty doesn't really cut it anymore. I think the max theoretical at 925 is still fine, but if the first three dropped 905-910 gear base and the next six dropped 910-915, you would see a bit more power progression through iLvLs than what we've seen in the past. I doubt this would affect the first guilds to finish a raid as they normally finish in the end of the first week, or at the very least, at the end of the second week.

Why? To me people just don't gain iLvLs anymore. The difference between normal > heroic, and heroic > mythic really isn't that high when you start to consider TF/WF. You get way more loot in heroic compared to mythic if you bring 30 people. When you're getting 6-7 pieces of loot, there is a high probability that you're going to +5/+10/+15 or greater some of that loot, which makes that boss give you something slightly worse, equal, or slightly better than it's Mythic boss equivalent. Mythic only gives like 4 pieces of loot. Using my own guild as an example, the first three bosses already have a fairly low chance to drop anything of value, and we've only killed them all 5 times. Unless something WF/TF it's pretty much shards, and these bosses are still relatively new. Even though we have only killed Botanist/Tichondrius/Krosus a couple times, it wasn't like everything that dropped was an upgrade either. I believe half the loot we got off our first Botanist kill was sharded a couple weeks ago, same as our Spellblade loot this week.

[Toybox]

You could easily give Trilliax a buff plus add 20s to krosus's enrage timer and it would still be a large jump in difficulty.

Gotta be honest, I think Krosus is alright as it is. Sure it's tight, but as gear improves, more & more guilds will kill it, and seeing how 1k guilds have already killed it... I don't know, I don't think it's an issue.

Also it drops the tier chest, so it shouldn't be a pushover.

[Emerald Archer]

Mythic Krosus requires 596k DPS per DPS to beat the enrage timer. This is just DPS on the boss itself, not the fire elemental adds. Realistically, you cannot kill this boss if you don't have 15 DPS capable of 700k sustained single-target DPS each. For comparison, Chronomatic Anomaly has 64% of Krosus' HP and the standard burn strat where you extend power overwhelming and only kill three sets of adds requires you to kill him in 4:30-5:00. Over half the fight with this strat is in haste-time, massively increasing your DPS. The DPS check for Krosus, the easiest boss after the first three, is over 150% of that of the next-hardest boss. The difficulty jump is much, much worse than Gorefiend was in HFC.

700k? What are you talking about.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=84

This is a kill, no one on boss dmg is over 700k, and not even half are over 600k. People over estimate the dps requirement.

[Alydael]

I don't find it to be a problem.

There are always "choke points" in progression. Some bosses just evolve to be harder than others. I am always reminded of hard mode "firestarter" in Uld. Now that was a "choke point."

As for the 54 traits..... I would be stunned if someone raiding mythic NH did not have the 54 traits. I have 46 on my current main and i haven't even been grinding it at all. I run dungeons, raids and just do the daily cache. I haven't farmed it. This is also my second main, I switched off my first main (a mage) because we needed a tank, or i would have 54 as well.

It seems to me (just my opinion) that mythic is tuned a little easier (in general) this x pac. Teams seems to be burning through it quicker.

[Sail into the wind]

54 is too grindy and only serves to keep otherwise capable players out of Mythic raiding. The thing with Artifact Power at that point is that it doesn't really impact your gameplay or community in any kind of way, so the grind lacks that extra flavor; farming shadow resistance gear for your guild in anticipation for Mother Shahraz back in TBC was fun, while grinding AP just so you are even considered for a raid spot in Legion is not.

[Xequecal]

700k? What are you talking about.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&target=84

This is a kill, no one on boss dmg is over 700k, and not even half are over 600k. People over estimate the dps requirement.

3.45b / 16 DPS / 360 seconds = 598k. That's just the boss' health, the adds need to be killed as well.

[iky43210]

how was highmauls difficulty curve in any way smooth? butcher is the 2nd hardest boss in that instance and it's the 2nd in the line, margok is WAAAAY harder than anything else, and HC margok was easily harder than twins and kargath, and kargath was literally a freekill
or even ICC? the third boss was literally free loot in that instance when the previous 2 was a decent challenge putricide and sindra were way harder than anything before, and LK is probably the hardest raidboss to date

Nhs difficulty curve is fine

it has 3 "introductory" bosses
then 4 chalenging ones,
2 hella hard ones
and then guldan who's really hard

you could skip butcher, and he's not the second hardest.

Curve in NH is pretty messed up. The jump in requirements are huge from 3rd boss to the rest

Would be better if it was smoother.

[Emerald Archer]

3.45b / 16 DPS / 360 seconds = 598k. That's just the boss' health, the adds need to be killed as well.

"Realistically, you cannot kill this boss if you don't have 15 DPS capable of 700k sustained single-target DPS each" That's what I'm referring to, and it's very untrue.

[syllabic]

The elitism of people on this forum is pretty ridiculous.

[Xequecal]

"Realistically, you cannot kill this boss if you don't have 15 DPS capable of 700k sustained single-target DPS each" That's what I'm referring to, and it's very untrue.

The point is that since you have to pull off the boss to kill the fire elementals and thus lose DPS, you need more single-target DPS than the DPS numbers in that parse in order to actually kill the boss.

[callipygoustp]

Nobody gives a fuck what you think.

Plenty of evidence suggests otherwise. But, rant on brother cause the above commentary is definitely what people DO care about.

You spent a page and a half screaming "59" and providing no context to your number. As far as most are concerned here you're just an idiot on the internet - and they'd be correct.

LOL "screaming" "idiot". I asked questions and with the exception of you and one other person, people responded in a non-hostile way. I did provide context for my number. Read all my posts and you'll find where I did. Check the attitude at the door. Definitely not necessary.

[shaunika123]

you could skip butcher, and he's not the second hardest.

Curve in NH is pretty messed up. The jump in requirements are huge from 3rd boss to the rest

Would be better if it was smoother.

it is relatively smooth
there are basically 2 jumps one from tich to SA and one from tril to krosus
every instance had one or two bumps, in fact they should have one or two bumps,

[Jotaux]

Gotta be honest, I think Krosus is alright as it is. Sure it's tight, but as gear improves, more & more guilds will kill it, and seeing how 1k guilds have already killed it... I don't know, I don't think it's an issue.

Also it drops the tier chest, so it shouldn't be a pushover.

No, the enrage is too tight for where it is in the tier. It doesn't follow a logical curve of progression. Yes a guild will eventually kill it with gear but how long will that take? 3 weeks? More with bad RNG? We had zero convergences of fates in my guild and wiped many times to enrage sub 2%. We finally killed it when we got one and took the 72nd fastest kill. That is far too long to spend on the 4th boss of the instance. Its even worse when you consider that once you kill that you take roughly a week each for the next two bosses.

[Sparty]

This is a common misconception. The only boss tuned to 54 traits was Mythic Guldan. Source: Internal QA team.

[Jastall]

People wanted a hard raid after crying so much about EN. Nighthold Mythic is a hard raid. That's how it should be.

If people were stuck on Heroic, I'd call it a problem. Mythic is supposed to be for the 1% of highly skilled and geared players, that is literally the point. If you can't cut it, too bad so sad.

[Sarevokcz]

No, the enrage is too tight for where it is in the tier. It doesn't follow a logical curve of progression. Yes a guild will eventually kill it with gear but how long will that take? 3 weeks? More with bad RNG? We had zero convergences of fates in my guild and wiped many times to enrage sub 2%. We finally killed it when we got one and took the 72nd fastest kill. That is far too long to spend on the 4th boss of the instance. Its even worse when you consider that once you kill that you take roughly a week each for the next two bosses.

maybe you should have picked different order, if you cant make krosus enrage for three damn weeks? and whats wrong with now getting one new mythic boss per week??

[Toybox]

No, the enrage is too tight for where it is in the tier. It doesn't follow a logical curve of progression. Yes a guild will eventually kill it with gear but how long will that take? 3 weeks? More with bad RNG? We had zero convergences of fates in my guild and wiped many times to enrage sub 2%. We finally killed it when we got one and took the 72nd fastest kill. That is far too long to spend on the 4th boss of the instance. Its even worse when you consider that once you kill that you take roughly a week each for the next two bosses.

It's only the fourth boss because you chose it to be the fourth boss. Spellblade/Botanist/Tich are all alternatives that are less reliant on DPS/HPS, and there was nothing to stop you going to one of those bosses before heading to Krosus.

Add 10-20s to Krosus and you're making it another freebie after Trilliax.

[Deleted]

Blimey I can remember people whinging about Patchwerk.

[Marrilaife]

OMG, they are stuck at 3/10 1 month after release while the next raid is not even close to be release!

The biggest worry is 7.2 PTR is in a state I wouldn't be surprised if we see 7.2 in a month and TOS raid in 2 months, which means NH will only last 3 months and not 4-5 like Blizzard claimed fits a raid cadence, we'll have another example of rushed release and good raid abandoned mid way due to next raid stepping on its heels.

Same story as with Helya, but that was a filler raid, so screw it kinda. My guild was progressing on mythic Odyn before the nerfs hit, we were getting to p3 but then the nerfs came, immediately after we killed 2/3m TOV in 1 raid, then Xmas break hit, 2 weeks of no raiding, then we spent 1 week on Helya, weren't close to a kill so we kinda left her cuz NH was opening in another week and it wasn't worth bothering anymore. Will be sad if NH follows the same pattern.