Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Flurryfang]

You're right. 53 traits and like randomly waiting for 4 higher ilevel accross your raid from warforging will also do it. That sounds pretty cool and smart. damn!

Farming bosses to advance is something that has been going on since the start of the game. There is nothing wrong with that. Can't kill the boss? Well better gear up then and try again next week or the week after that. It is not unhealthy to be blocked by a boss.

[Eapoe]

The only person to blame for participating in a system one finds unrewarding is the person who is participating. My guild runs heroics. Most of us play 5-6 hours a day 4-5 days a week max. Most of us have maxed or almost maxed our weapons. Hell, I'm at 44 on one and 35 on the other two, with six 860+ alts all at 35+ on at least one weapon, and the ONLY AP hunting that I do is my daily emmy cache and any m+ or raid AP items I get. Had I actually put some effort in, I'd already have at least one weapon maxed - but I didn't, because I gave up being hardcore back in MoP.

You want something to complain about because you rushed the content and got bored or your guild doesn't qualify for realm first and you want to blame it on something external. It's not Blizzard's fault. It's not Ion's fault. It's only marginally your guild leader's fault for hounding you and putting conditions on your participation in guild events. It's your fault for letting yourself be pushed into a high-stakes grind for virtual toys.

You realize the grind system is rewarding? So much so that it's, well, necessary to progress.

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Farming bosses to advance is something that has been going on since the start of the game. There is nothing wrong with that. Can't kill the boss? Well better gear up then and try again next week or the week after that. It is not unhealthy to be blocked by a boss.

No, it's not, but this isn't just a gear related issue. AP is very real and also necessary to kill bosses.

[Flurryfang]

You realize the grind system is rewarding? So much so that it's, well, necessary to progress.

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No, it's not, but this isn't just a gear related issue. AP is very real and also necessary to kill bosses.

Some amount of AP, yes, but not 54 or anything close to that. From what i have heard from guys from Method and Exorsus, it was not DPS that was a problem on most bosses. Sure, there are DPS check-fights, but that dps can be gained by gear just aswell as AP. This is pretty much proven with mythic versions of DPS-checks being killed quite some time before their enrage by some guilds now.

[Eapoe]

Some amount of AP, yes, but not 54 or anything close to that. From what i have heard from guys from Method and Exorsus, it was not DPS that was a problem on most bosses. Sure, there are DPS check-fights, but that dps can be gained by gear just aswell as AP. This is pretty much proven with mythic versions of DPS-checks being killed quite some time before their enrage by some guilds now.

Yes, there's also mechanics and health pools. Health pools gain a bonus from AP, and mechanics are changed based on raid comp, which is determined by class and specs. Know what else affects specs thruput and gow to adjust mechanics? Small hint: AP.

[theyanger]

Farming bosses to advance is something that has been going on since the start of the game. There is nothing wrong with that. Can't kill the boss? Well better gear up then and try again next week or the week after that. It is not unhealthy to be blocked by a boss.

So are you actually autistic or do you really not understand how gear in this game works? These players are already geared. It's easier than ever to plateau your ilevel due to M+. Realistically your only gains are specific trinkets/tier that won't drop for you, or warforging/titanforging. Also, gear is MULTIPLICATIVE with artifact traits, not additive.

[Flurryfang]

Yes, there's also mechanics and health pools. Health pools gain a bonus from AP, and mechanics are changed based on raid comp, which is determined by class and specs. Know what else affects specs thruput and gow to adjust mechanics? Small hint: AP.

Just like gear does. NH is not tuned for you to have maxed out gear AND AP. It is tuned for you to have a high lvl of these things, yes, but that comes with the increased sources of gear, that we haved in Legion. I am not saying, that you can't help your progression by having high lvl artifact or a max lvl artifact, but it is not a must have to kill some bosses. Maybe Gul'dan, but like many mythic last bosses, they are there to test the best of the best with the best gear and other stuff, which is why that fight nearly always becomes nerfed at some point, so non-extreme guilds can beat them.

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So are you actually autistic or do you really not understand how gear in this game works? These players are already geared. It's easier than ever to plateau your ilevel due to M+. Realistically your only gains are specific trinkets/tier that won't drop for you, or warforging/titanforging. Also, gear is MULTIPLICATIVE with artifact traits, not additive.

Ohh i did not know that they had mythic tier pieces or warforged/titanforged mythic trinkets? I also did not know, that as soon as you raid mythic in Legion, that you get BiS gear at the welcome gate.

I am not talking about top 20-50 guilds, who have done MoS 2000+ times. I am talking about people, who just raid and do stuff outside the raid to get some reasonable gear. Many mythic guilds are not doing insane amounts of M+ and are still getting alot of gear through killing the early NH mythic bosses and by clearing heroic.

I know that the highest mythic guilds are pretty much geared up by the start of the raiding season, but that is not who this is about. We are talking about if any guild can do mythic NH content without lvl 54 artifact and i believe so, and i think the future will prove that.

Edit: You really had to autistic? I think that is a bit too far. Just because we maybe disagree, does not justify using such terms.

[theyanger]

You knwo the only 'mythic tier' piece they can get without being 4/10 is a fucking cape right?

[Sanguiris]

My point was that Ion is an arrogant ass. The video and his attitude are all the proof I need.

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Less and less every day.

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Saying that Mythic raiding should be tuned for people without a job is close to the stupidest thing said so far in this thread.

Idiot, I didn't say mythic, I said race for world first

[Eapoe]

Just like gear does. NH is not tuned for you to have maxed out gear AND AP. It is tuned for you to have a high lvl of these things, yes, but that comes with the increased sources of gear, that we haved in Legion. I am not saying, that you can't help your progression by having high lvl artifact or a max lvl artifact, but it is not a must have to kill some bosses. Maybe Gul'dan, but like many mythic last bosses, they are there to test the best of the best with the best gear and other stuff, which is why that fight nearly always becomes nerfed at some point, so non-extreme guilds can beat them.

So why not start them at the nerf extreme and cut out the grind. Mythic races are a thing, whether Blizz endorses them or not, they recognize them, know they exist, and tune bosses with these people in mind. At the same time, that means that these bosses are designed with the idea of people having the gear and maxed out weapons (maybe off by a few points). As also pointed out, bosses are not universal in comp makeup, requiring different amounts of tanks, heals, dps, and types of dps. This is especially true in the early days before the nerf you brought up.
This means that Blizz designs the game with the grind in mind, and sets the requirements needed for the kill. That does not mean they are solely to blame. The blame is on everyone, as I keep saying. It is not a black and white us or them scenarios.

[Flurryfang]

You knwo the only 'mythic tier' piece they can get without being 4/10 is a fucking cape right?

You can get that kind of item lvls with lucky heroic tier pieces, but you get the idea. There are some upgrades in NH both heroic and early Mythic, that can help you with throughput fights.

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So why not start them at the nerf extreme and cut out the grind. Mythic races are a thing, whether Blizz endorses them or not, they recognize them, know they exist, and tune bosses with these people in mind. At the same time, that means that these bosses are designed with the idea of people having the gear and maxed out weapons (maybe off by a few points). As also pointed out, bosses are not universal in comp makeup, requiring different amounts of tanks, heals, dps, and types of dps. This is especially true in the early days before the nerf you brought up.
This means that Blizz designs the game with the grind in mind, and sets the requirements needed for the kill. That does not mean they are solely to blame. The blame is on everyone, as I keep saying. It is not a black and white us or them scenarios.

First of all, the tuning of NH and the high requirements for the opening week and proberly some forward was set to counter balance the easy tier of EN. It was the players who asked for higher requirements and Blizzard wanted to deliver. Ofcourse Blizzards system is not perfect and Blizzard have not said that it is. They have several times said, that the access to AP and gear, and the oddity of stats, have been a problem since start, but it sadly have taken them some time to fix that. In the meanwhile, they ARE kind forced to tune NH to the reality, which is a top 50 mythic guild-group which have an insane amount of gear and AP. But with that i also think, that we should expect nerfs to most of mythic NH within long, because many of the guilds, who have taken good advantage of the gear/AP gainability are getting through instance and therefore it can be tuned down to the more modest mythic crowd.

Taken from a previous comment from either the plue post Watcher or from an Lore/Ion interview, Blizzard have only tuned Elisande and Gul'dan for the extreme 54 crowd and the rest quite below that, so while NH is currently tuned high, it should mostly be tactics, that should keep most guilds back from kills.

I do agree, that Blizzard have blame here. Outside of AP, the amount of legendaries and gear that high tier mythic guilds have compared to more modest/chill mythic guilds is quite high, because of the unbalanced nature of M+. They should have foreseen the problem that would come there, because nearly all of us did at Blizzcon when they announced the feature. But in the end, the game can be enjoyed at quite a high lvl without forcing yourself to do a extremly time draining grind and we the players should have taken a step back, done a less faster mythic race/progression and just given our piece of mind to Blizzard withour bowing under to the system.

[Logwyn]

2. these guys are the best players in the world

I'd argue that they are simply the ones that have the ability to spend the time and effort at it. Not all are the most skilled in the world.

Doesn't Blizzard "advertise" the world firsts? Or at-least interview the "top guilds"?

[xalai]

This Ion guy is fortunate his name is much more difficult to spell than Jay Wilson, otherwise there is easily going to be a viral campaign to get his ass fired - same thing that happened to Jay Wilson for D3

[Eapoe]

You can get that kind of item lvls with lucky heroic tier pieces, but you get the idea. There are some upgrades in NH both heroic and early Mythic, that can help you with throughput fights.

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First of all, the tuning of NH and the high requirements for the opening week and proberly some forward was set to counter balance the easy tier of EN. It was the players who asked for higher requirements and Blizzard wanted to deliver. Ofcourse Blizzards system is not perfect and Blizzard have not said that it is. They have several times said, that the access to AP and gear, and the oddity of stats, have been a problem since start, but it sadly have taken them some time to fix that. In the meanwhile, they ARE kind forced to tune NH to the reality, which is a top 50 mythic guild-group which have an insane amount of gear and AP. But with that i also think, that we should expect nerfs to most of mythic NH within long, because many of the guilds, who have taken good advantage of the gear/AP gainability are getting through instance and therefore it can be tuned down to the more modest mythic crowd.

Taken from a previous comment from either the plue post Watcher or from an Lore/Ion interview, Blizzard have only tuned Elisande and Gul'dan for the extreme 54 crowd and the rest quite below that, so while NH is currently tuned high, it should mostly be tactics, that should keep most guilds back from kills.

I do agree, that Blizzard have blame here. Outside of AP, the amount of legendaries and gear that high tier mythic guilds have compared to more modest/chill mythic guilds is quite high, because of the unbalanced nature of M+. They should have foreseen the problem that would come there, because nearly all of us did at Blizzcon when they announced the feature. But in the end, the game can be enjoyed at quite a high lvl without forcing yourself to do a extremly time draining grind and we the players should have taken a step back, done a less faster mythic race/progression and just given our piece of mind to Blizzard withour bowing under to the system.

Which leads into the next issue. Blizzard admits that AP and legendary items are a problem. Instead of looking for ways to fix it, they double down on the problems that arise from them. New crafted legendary items (which so far are only good for alts that can make them), ilvl still scaling, adding a 4th rank to non gold traits, adding 3 new gold traits, and the possibility of a D3 unending style of paragon gain when you max those traits. This also doubles down on the grind for raiding.
The fact that 2 bosses alone are geared for 54 points still shows the issue. These are 2 fights where it's better to have a certain amount of rdps vs mdps, and while potentially can be killed by any comp, for those progressing prenerf will be very difficult without stacking the raid. This leads raiders into not only having 2-3 specs at 50-54 traits, but potentially alts as well. This is where the grind comes from that people downcast and blow off.
The downside is that, as of right now, there is no way to fix this for the xpac. Who knows what they will do in future xpacs. One thing is certain, this style of play does cause a lot of burnout. Players choosing to do this are making that choice. They are also to blame as well as Blizzard.

[cFortyfive]

My guild runs heroics. Most of us play 5-6 hours a day 4-5 days a week max.

Holy fuck you waste that much time on the game and get nothing done but a couple heroics.

[Flurryfang]

Which leads into the next issue. Blizzard admits that AP and legendary items are a problem. Instead of looking for ways to fix it, they double down on the problems that arise from them. New crafted legendary items (which so far are only good for alts that can make them), ilvl still scaling, adding a 4th rank to non gold traits, adding 3 new gold traits, and the possibility of a D3 unending style of paragon gain when you max those traits. This also doubles down on the grind for raiding.
The fact that 2 bosses alone are geared for 54 points still shows the issue. These are 2 fights where it's better to have a certain amount of rdps vs mdps, and while potentially can be killed by any comp, for those progressing prenerf will be very difficult without stacking the raid. This leads raiders into not only having 2-3 specs at 50-54 traits, but potentially alts as well. This is where the grind comes from that people downcast and blow off.
The downside is that, as of right now, there is no way to fix this for the xpac. Who knows what they will do in future xpacs. One thing is certain, this style of play does cause a lot of burnout. Players choosing to do this are making that choice. They are also to blame as well as Blizzard.

Don't really see how crafted legendaries, who are not gonna compete against other legendaries, are a problem and adding to the situation. Blizzard have said, that it is supposed to be a pretty mediocre item and never be the best legendary in any situation.

The new traits are not really a problem either, since it is just a general buff for everybody, since you can get them all pretty easy by just doing 7.2 content, that you normally would. No grinding here. The endless trait is really a thing, that should stop people from thinking that you should grind it. It is supposed to be a thing, that works in the background and not something that you actively play for. If you want to farm AP in 7.2, you are nearly wasting your time and it seems like no bosses in 7.2 will be made with extreme AP lvls in mind (taken from the latest interview).

I think that Blizzard after EN stood i situation where NH would be completly stomped, if they did not fix the last 2 bosses for 54, and with 2 tiers down many people would have said, that the end of competetive WoW was over, which Blizzard wants to avoid. In the ideal world, they should not be a forced situation to do this, but the first 6 months of the game kinda made sure of that. People simply had too many resourses.

So again, the blame is alot on Blizzard for making the game like this, but the current situation is totally the top guilds fault. People should have easily been able to see the huge grind on the horizon and just taken a break for a tier or 2, and just let Blizzard take care of the fallout of the mythic raiders. If instead of having several hundreds of guilds farming their brains out, we had several hundreds of guils taking a break from NH and simply not doing mythic, Blizzard would proberly be much faster with their "fixes" since they see numbers go sharply down.

[Ainyan]

Holy fuck you waste that much time on the game and get nothing done but a couple heroics.

A couple of heroics? We're 8/10 heroic NH with a core raid group of 12-15 and we raid a whole 6 hours a week, with a full 10/10 N clear each week as well. We "waste" that much time fucking around, running m+ and doing achievements and shit.

[Jngizu]

So are you actually autistic or do you really not understand how gear in this game works? These players are already geared. It's easier than ever to plateau your ilevel due to M+. Realistically your only gains are specific trinkets/tier that won't drop for you, or warforging/titanforging. Also, gear is MULTIPLICATIVE with artifact traits, not additive.

Jesus you're stupid. You're stuck at 4 bosses yourself, why do you even talk like an expert? You're probably stuck on Alluriel and think you can't kill her because your guild doesn't have enough traits? Maybe your guild as well as you are just not good enough?

And no, your stream was on M Guam, so not that long ago, and yeah you do suck. So you've proven that you're a nobody, you insult people as well as being extremely condescending because you killed 4 bosses. Instead of doing all of that, just focus on playing and getting good.

[xalai]

Face it, the truth is that Blizzard is still stuck in the “theme park limitations” of this genre. Its been more than 10 years of wow, and with each xpansion frankly Blizzard has not innovated. The grind is the same grind (only now they added D3 type of grind with world quests and paragon concepts). Fundamentally, progression is the same linear theme park type progression.

If Blizzard want to innovate, they need to reinvent the theme park genre altogether. Sadly, this far into Legion xpansion, they are not going to make drastic changes, and certainly not with this Ion guy with his isolated viewpoint.

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Legion as an xpansion is basically just the D3 template superimposed on WOW assets. True, it is a well executed xfer of D3 concepts to WOW. But there really isn't anything that Blizzard innovated that is new or fresh. The grind is still a grind, and therefore burnout will come eventually. The truth is that with linear theme park MMOs, the grind is one dimensional. Whatever the reasons for burnout, whether it is self-induced by players for whatever reason, is still premised on the linear theme park style content.

If Blizzard truly want to address this burnout risk, they need to think out of the box and rely more on sandbox type content instead of linear theme park.

This Ion guy has serious PR issues. You can talk like that as a backroom dev. But if you want to be a leader and do PR comms, you need to learn some tact. Otherwise, its Jay Wilson for you.

[Sarevokcz]

No, if someone has only done 150 mythic +s and is 50+ artifact traits, they've done them all since AK25 came out.

If you did one mythic + a day the entire time, you'd probably be mid 40s. Depending on the lvel of the M+ you did. The increase in time required goes up DRAMATICALLY once you're over 35 traits, period.



What a stupid comparison, Casinos and Gambling are one of the most highly regulated things around because of the destructive effects it has on people.

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Pulling the bosses is actually the only citation anyone with a brain needs. These bosses are designed around this.

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Um. Yes. It is. There is no other good source of renewable AP that doesn't take LONGER. Like, ok show me someone that ground it out doing RBGs? congrats, they wasted even more time. It's not some edgy opinion you can refute, AP is finite aside from spamming repeatable content, and the MOST efficient repeatable conotent to do it with is efficient M+ runs. And yes, anyone with max traits ahs run AT LEAST 100 mythic +s (and even a number that low would require them to run higher level keys during AK25 and not have run any at all prior to that at the less efficient AK levels).

If you didn't do anything until AK25, it would take you 218 Mythic 10+ dungeons to get maxed out in a weapon. TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTEEN.
Doing your daily chores every day at AK25 might get you as much AP as a single one of those runs. Everything before we were at high AK might as well have not existed in terms of how much of an impact it had in that total number, so saying "Oh it's been 6 months" is meaningless when in reality the bulk of people's artifact power has come within the last two.

your math is way off, you completely ignore things like suramar and balance of power questlines, occasional WQs and emmisarys, APs from raids and missions, pvp ranks etc. I have maybe like 90 mythics and I certainly didnt do more than half of them since i hit 25, which was when, like the early january? and im at 52, while I dont even really do WQs since december anymore aside from daily CD on pvp quest for effortless honor...

[Deleted]

MFW you say you don't need 54 traits AND IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS INDICATE WHY YOUR "opinion" IS WRONG AS FUCK.

Everyone knows you can get 3/10 without that shit. 3/10 is literally the charity bosses. There's a reason you haven't killed 4.

They got krosus on 20% last night with a larger raid with some average dpsers. So your amusing emotional nerdy kneejerk is noted but ignored at the same time.

Learn to read btw

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Here's a hint: It matters because even if they have the tactics or the gear, THEY CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE TRAITS.
You're right though ,these random world 3000 guilds are totally going to find a tactic that just increases raid dps by 14.5% like the trait does. They're much smarter than those dumb brute force world 500 guilds that needed the extra bit of stats.

Who cares. They're not rushing because they don't want us guild members to burnout.
Amazing concept yeah?