Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Deleted]

Each player has his own reason to play this game.

I have played not only wow but also another mmo rpgs at hardcore level (sometimes in the world top 10). The required time to get this achievement in legion is just insane. It brings a lot of secondary effects with it. The time requirements forces guilds to take weaker players with a lot of time in the setup. Quantity over quality - this sucks really. And the qq is real - there is a reaso why a lot of raiders all across the board are quitting (including me). Its not only a classical whine without any consistance. I am tired to play with nubs and being forced to play at >top50 because I cannot bring the time. Its a shmae what players are around in the top 100. Never ever was the skill level at such a low level in tbis bracket. The last 3 bosses are gear heavy but not the hardest in execution.

[dproject]

Ion needs to be blamed for this situation right now. The legendary system is just fucked up idea. It's like a copycat from d3 system which is not good for WoW at all.
Now good players are more determined by what legendaries do you have right now, instead of how good are you playing the game. Its crazy ... and finally I can safely say that ... WOD is still better than this expansion

[Relapses]

How 7.2 will affect things remains to be seen. It's mostly depends on Tomb of Sargeras tuning. If it "requires" new Paragon traits to any significant degree, it might very well kill mythic raiding. If that's their goal - well, mission accomplished.

The rhetoric Blizzard used to describe the new traits leads me to believe that we'll be in a situation similar to how it was in EN rather than how it has been in M-ToV/M-NH. People who grind more should be slightly more powerful but hopefully not by magnitudes which make certain bosses impossible unless players are at some theoretical breaking point. I really hope Blizzard has learned from how poorly this has panned out with this patch.

[Tharkkun]

Sigh.
It's a video game in a forum of which you've posted near 6,000 times. Cut the crap.
WoW is a hobby people have been engaging in for years, some over a decade, any fundamental change to how it functions at max level is a valid point of discussion. Evermore so when that change occurs 12 years down the line.

But evidently you're not interested in responding to the actual content of my post, why bother quoting and responding? I innocently continue erring on the side of optimism when posting here, I guess I ought to thank you for at least correcting me when it comes to you yourself.

Legion has taken the control you used to have over your character's progression out of your hands. If you're unable to see this, there's no hope. If you're okay with it, fine, be my guest. But stop lambasting other people's play choices just because they don't like the rug being pulled out under their feet after a decade.

Or continue, join the chorus of the gleeful 'casuals' celebrating the effects Legion is having on the hardcore oriented community. I wonder where those feelings of resentment stem from, if not from the plain ignorance that has been continuously demonstrated for years on these forums, as to where and why the game's development resources are allocated and focused.

Unfortunately, you can't beat empathy into someone. Any valid claims made as to the long-term effect losing dedicated players would have on the game's community as a whole are surely to be dismissed out of spite or hubris. So frankly, whatever.

edit:
And to be perfectly clear and avoid further assumptions, it's not empathy towards me that I expect. It's towards those who spend their free time theorycrafting, PTR testing, tactic devising, add-on writing and world first dragon slaying. I'm just a random guy who utilizes the 13 hours he raids each week slightly better than most.

But none of that has anything to do with the thread itself. The OP said Ion or Blizzard insulted Mythic raid leaders. I said he just spoke the cold hard truth. That truth is its players that push themselves to do ridiculous things to compete for world first. Blizzard doesn't force their hand. They make a choice whether they want to invest 40-60 hours a week raiding versus others who don't.

Each expansion introduces new systems. That's nothing new at all. Sometimes it's good and others aren't. The one thing we know is we had practically nothing to do at max level last expansion so Blizzard gave us tons of things to keep us busy in Legion. It's still up to the player to pace themselves properly. There's also a huge skill curve between the best guilds and the worst. Players should be able to find a guild that meets their needs instead of worrying what others think they should be doing. Like the OP that says that anyone disagreing with him is a LFR raider. Quite frankly he's an idiot.

I don't understand this necessity to cap everything in this game. Especially the 54 AP grind in 3 different specs. I bought into it and at 37 artifact points I said forget it. Now I get 1 point a week...maybe. It's much easier to enjoy the game then try to constantly chase the finish line as fast as possible.

[Deleted]

All i see is some winny noob crying about stuff.I'm playing 3 hr per day and i've hit 54 traits in january.I stopped doing quests and stuff and i got 44 traits in Frost too.i'm 3/10 mythic since i played a lot less lately..How is this burning you out?How's the game fault?If you want 100 alts with 54 traits on all specs in 5 month you are insane and you only burn yourself bc of your stupidity.Ian is right.

[rda]

But none of that has anything to do with the thread itself. The OP said Ion or Blizzard insulted Mythic raid leaders. I said he just spoke the cold hard truth. That truth is its players that push themselves to do ridiculous things to compete for world first. Blizzard doesn't force their hand. They make a choice whether they want to invest 40-60 hours a week raiding versus others who don't.

He spoke part of the truth.

Yes, it is players who push themselves to grind a lot. That's part of the truth. The other part is that Blizzard are designing the game in a way where this is the only way to compete. Blizzard are designing the game in this way on purpose - they want to keep players subbed and they are no longer capable of doing it any other way except by adding near-infinite grinds and locking big rewards and parts of the content behind these grinds.

[Murderdoll]

All i see is some winny noob crying about stuff.I'm playing 3 hr per day and i've hit 54 traits in january.I stopped doing quests and stuff and i got 44 traits in Frost too.i'm 3/10 mythic since i played a lot less lately..How is this burning you out?How's the game fault?If you want 100 alts with 54 traits on all specs in 5 month you are insane and you only burn yourself bc of your stupidity.Ian is right.

Poor troll is poor.

[IceMan1763]

He spoke part of the truth.

Yes, it is players who push themselves to grind a lot. That's part of the truth. The other part is that Blizzard are designing the game in a way where this is the only way to compete. Blizzard are designing the game in this way on purpose - they want to keep players subbed and they are no longer capable of doing it any other way except by adding near-infinite grinds and locking big rewards and parts of the content behind these grinds.

The sad thing is, number of raids and raid bosses put to the side, Legion really is not all that short on content.

The game systems devs ruined the xpac for me though through lack of caps in AP and M+ and don't get me started on legiondaries.

[Grimnakh]

Sigh.
It's a video game in a forum of which you've posted near 6,000 times. Cut the crap.
WoW is a hobby people have been engaging in for years, some over a decade, any fundamental change to how it functions at max level is a valid point of discussion. Evermore so when that change occurs 12 years down the line.

But evidently you're not interested in responding to the actual content of my post, why bother quoting and responding? I innocently continue erring on the side of optimism when posting here, I guess I ought to thank you for at least correcting me when it comes to you yourself.

Legion has taken the control you used to have over your character's progression out of your hands. If you're unable to see this, there's no hope. If you're okay with it, fine, be my guest. But stop lambasting other people's play choices just because they don't like the rug being pulled out under their feet after a decade.

Or continue, join the chorus of the gleeful 'casuals' celebrating the effects Legion is having on the hardcore oriented community. I wonder where those feelings of resentment stem from, if not from the plain ignorance that has been continuously demonstrated for years on these forums, as to where and why the game's development resources are allocated and focused.

Unfortunately, you can't beat empathy into someone. Any valid claims made as to the long-term effect losing dedicated players would have on the game's community as a whole are surely to be dismissed out of spite or hubris. So frankly, whatever.

edit:
And to be perfectly clear and avoid further assumptions, it's not empathy towards me that I expect. It's towards those who spend their free time theorycrafting, PTR testing, tactic devising, add-on writing and world first dragon slaying. I'm just a random guy who utilizes the 13 hours he raids each week slightly better than most.

Empathy for the few over the many, maybe you're the one lacking in empathy? The best gear and fastest character improvement come from Mythic raiding. Now everyone is able to slowly improve their characters through aggregate rng of warforging/titanforging. If maxxing a char's AP is too much for you you're not a very serious wow player, and just want everything available at a hyper accelerated rate with no gear/character power progression past base herioc gear for non-mythic players. You're just a selfish entitled person who doesn't recognize that youre playing an mmorpg, not a console game.

- - - Updated - - -

He spoke part of the truth.

Yes, it is players who push themselves to grind a lot. That's part of the truth. The other part is that Blizzard are designing the game in a way where this is the only way to compete. Blizzard are designing the game in this way on purpose - they want to keep players subbed and they are no longer capable of doing it any other way except by adding near-infinite grinds and locking big rewards and parts of the content behind these grinds.

What's the obsession with being done with the content? Games without some part of the population pushing the limits on their time and ability are dead games. You want to what, beat the expansion and unsub until the next raid? Or you just want no more gear until your group manages to beat the next mythic boss.

[clevin]

Not really?

Just because a boss has an insane dps requirement in the 2nd week of mythic (like Krosus?) doesn't mean it's tuned for 54. 1-2 weeks later, with the increase in ilvl, and people obtaining 2p\4pc, best trinkets, etc, Krosus became a joke... In a few weeks the same will happen to Star Augur (in regards of dps requirement, not mechanics, since Star Augur is vastly more complicated than krosus's).

So yea, just because the vast majority of guilds doesn't kill a boss in the first 2 weeks of mythic doesn't mean it's tuned for 54 traits. It will become easier with time... who knew?

*cough*...

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...56538650066945

@ArtuniasDPS Star Augur onwards were indeed tuned for 54, but that's because we looked at the audience and the audience was already at 54.

[hulkgor]

*cough*...

https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...56538650066945

Again, 54 AT LAUNCH.

The vast majority of the playerbase won't reach him, or even get close to him in the first 2-3 months, if at all. Inflated itemlevel will have a massive impact when they do... even if they're not with 54 by then.

- - - Updated - - -

You had just confirmed what i say, the only ones who had killed augur in the first month are people with 54 traits and a bit of overgear, just one question do you had any problem about reading or you just don't do raid beside of lfr?

Gear will make it easier, as it has in the past 12 and a half years of wow. Don't worry if you're having issues, you'll soon overcome them.

Also, maybe the thousands of hours put into, multiple split runs to funnel bis gear to raiders, huge amount of viable alts to tune your composition, previous PTR experience, etc, also helped those top guilds defeat the content, 'eh?

Oh, guess NOT, it was just having the 54!

I 'must be' an lfr raider for disagreeing with you... got it!

[Sansnom]

No, it should be 100%. What is the point of keeping a few unlucky people in the mix? It's just gear. The game should be about the bosses and fellowship you get from beating an awesome fire breathing dragon as a team, not the gear. The system I suggested would be fine as long as they released raids every 4-6 months.

Well, if it is just gear, why the big fuss?

[IceMan1763]

Well, if it is just gear, why the big fuss?

If you're talking about Legion, the big fuss is:

1) Legiondaries - worst idea ever implemented in the game (most powerful gear handed out solely by RNG)
2) Infinite M+ loot (and all other loot) with yet more RNG for every aspect of the gear
3) AP grind - worst grind ever introduced in the game (and decidedly NOT gear that massively affected TOV and NH progress)

All these combine to make NH tuning about time investment and NOT skill. The primary purpose of gear has been lost and the AP system just adds to the problem. The devs have made the game all about pulling the slot machine for gear and infinite grinds rather than killing dragons with your fellow players.

If your'e referring to why 100% and not 50%... it's because 50% leaves a select few unlucky people. Why do that to them? Why the big fuss about NOT giving them gear that they have (in my opinion and most other sane player's opinions) earned?

[Berengil]

Or continue, join the chorus of the gleeful 'casuals' celebrating the effects Legion is having on the hardcore oriented community. I wonder where those feelings of resentment stem from, if not from the plain ignorance that has been continuously demonstrated for years on these forums, as to where and why the game's development resources are allocated and focused.

I don't know about the poster you quoted, but personally, I would celebrate the final death of both competitive raiding AND rated pvp. Making tuning and content design decisions with those communities in mind is destructive to the rest of the game. Thankfully, Blizzard seems to have understood that, and given us the excellent Legion expansion, with grinds that are seemingly unbearable for that community. Time will tell if the players in those groups step down to join casual players, or leave the community. Either outcome would be acceptable to me.

It's towards those who spend their free time theorycrafting, PTR testing, tactic devising, add-on writing and world first dragon slaying.

All unnecessary in a game with zero competitive scene. /fingers crossed

[Exostential]

I don't know about the poster you quoted, but personally, I would celebrate the final death of both competitive raiding AND rated pvp. Making tuning and content design decisions with those communities in mind is destructive to the rest of the game. Thankfully, Blizzard seems to have understood that, and given us the excellent Legion expansion, with grinds that are seemingly unbearable for that community. Time will tell if the players in those groups step down to join casual players, or leave the community. Either outcome would be acceptable to me.







All unnecessary in a game with zero competitive scene. /fingers crossed

This game wouldn't still be around had it not focused on end game throughout its life. It owes it's success to those types of players.

You sound like you don't have a very experienced understanding of the game, which is fine, but it means your opinion on this matter is largely irrelevant. Believe me when I say those are the nicest words I can muster up for someone like you.

[Deleted]

personally, I would celebrate the final death of both competitive raiding AND rated pvp.

I have to ask, what is wrong with rated PVP in terms of game design?, i fail to see how it does affect other PVP.

- - - Updated - - -

This game wouldn't still be around had it not focused on end game throughout its life.

That is soooo not true

[Exostential]

I have to ask, what is wrong with rated PVP in terms of game design?, i fail to see how it does affect other PVP.

- - - Updated - - -



That is soooo not true

If you had been playing since launch and had witnessed all the other games come and go you'd know that shoddy end game and the lack of a thriving community based around them is what we're the nail in their coffins.

At the very least you would have come up with a more compelling argument to the contrary.

[Deleted]

At the very least you would have come up with a more compelling argument to the contrary.

Unlike your compelling argument? are you saying that the instant success of vanilla wow was because it´s end-game content?

[IceMan1763]

Unlike your compelling argument? are you saying that the instant success of vanilla wow was because it´s end-game content?

I believe the success of WOW as a whole was all about accessibility, whether we're talking about leveling, end game, or anything in between. That's ultimately why Legion is failing and will fail. They have mistaken showering people with gear for accessibility and time/RNG sinks for content, ultimately making raiding far less accessible for large swaths of players.

There are some great responses here about why vanilla WOW trounced the MMO giant of the time, EQ:
https://www.quora.com/What-made-WoW-...than-Everquest

By Wrath, the dev team had made a concerted effort to apply accessibility to the end game more than it had been in the previous two expansions. Despite claims to the contrary and only one difficulty level at the start, an incredible number of players raided in Wrath. More players raided in Wrath than are currently subscribed in Legion. There was also a healthy and thriving PVP community. Accessibility, a large quantity of quality content, and an engaged and excited community were the secret sauce that took Wrath to levels no one thought possible.

People like to point at a lot of things for the decline, but ultimately I think you can quote WOW itself for a primary one: "No king rules forever, my son". Expecting to stay above 10 million subs forever was probably not realistic, but honestly I think a big problem throughout the years was large sums of WOW revenue being diverted to other projects which caused content droughts or simply lower quality content to be released. This was WOD's major problem, in my opinion. Development resources were lacking and pet design ideas like the Garrison and Shipyard (attempting to turn WOW into a Facebook game) did not instill any sense of awe or excitement from the playerbase. You can even point to the number of dungeons and raids released in Wrath and TBC and compare them to subsequent xpacs as a barometer of the lack of actual productivity from the development team.

[Softbottom]

I believe the success of WOW as a whole was all about accessibility, whether we're talking about leveling, end game, or anything in between. That's ultimately why Legion is failing and will fail. They have mistaken showering people with gear for accessibility and time/RNG sinks for content, ultimately making raiding far less accessible for large swaths of players.

There are some great responses here about why vanilla WOW trounced the MMO giant of the time, EQ:
https://www.quora.com/What-made-WoW-...than-Everquest

By Wrath, the dev team had made a concerted effort to apply accessibility to the end game more than it had been in the previous two expansions. Despite claims to the contrary and only one difficulty level at the start, an incredible number of players raided in Wrath. More players raided in Wrath than are currently subscribed in Legion. There was also a healthy and thriving PVP community. Accessibility, a large quantity of quality content, and an engaged and excited community were the secret sauce that took Wrath to levels no one thought possible.

People like to point at a lot of things for the decline, but ultimately I think you can quote WOW itself for a primary one: "No king rules forever, my son". Expecting to stay above 10 million subs forever was probably not realistic, but honestly I think a big problem throughout the years was large sums of WOW revenue being diverted to other projects which caused content droughts or simply lower quality content to be released. This was WOD's major problem, in my opinion. Development resources were lacking and pet design ideas like the Garrison and Shipyard (attempting to turn WOW into a Facebook game) did not instill any sense of awe or excitement from the playerbase. You can even point to the number of dungeons and raids released in Wrath and TBC and compare them to subsequent xpacs as a barometer of the lack of actual productivity from the development team.

I miss EQ. Good times were had from 1999-2004