fire mage and shiet dps

[Deleted]

i just want to make something abundantly clear to you, just so you can understand the issue, that img shows 2 glaringly bad things, first off, it shows that your parse of 85% (98% for ilvl) is the same as an arms warriors 75th percentile rank, this is not just a thing specific to you, this is widespread across the whole playerbase, it doesn't matter how well i play, even if i hit 99th percentile as fire/frost/arcane, i would still only be doing 60-80% of another "decent" specs damage output based on parse data, furthermore this img shows how piss poor the majority of your team is if they can't out dps you as a fire mage on this boss.

That's not waht that means though. He won't be 60-80% necessarily. The percentile is your standing among players of the same class. So if 10k dps means you're the 30th best in a pool of 100, you're 70%. Even if #1 is 200k dps.

[Deleted]

That's not waht that means though. He won't be 60-80% necessarily. The percentile is your standing among players of the same class. So if 10k dps means you're the 30th best in a pool of 100, you're 70%. Even if #1 is 200k dps.

what the man you quoted said, is still corecct tho, a 90 percentile rank of a fire mage is still equivalent to a 60ish percentile rank of say a dh, meaning that the dps difference of equally ranked fire mages and dhs are quite significant, in general that would mean that by comparison, assuming equally skilled and geared, 40ish% of all dhs out dmg a fire mage for no other reason than he's a dh and that is pretty bad for a class that has 3 dps specs vs a class that only has 1, dont get me wrong, im fine with other classes outdpsing me, what im not ok with is the sheer amount with which they do it.

[Deleted]

what the man you quoted said, is still corecct tho, a 90 percentile rank of a fire mage is still equivalent to a 60ish percentile rank of say a dh, meaning that the dps difference of equally ranked fire mages and dhs are quite significant, in general that would mean that by comparison, assuming equally skilled and geared, 40ish% of all dhs out dmg a fire mage for no other reason than he's a dh and that is pretty bad for a class that has 3 dps specs vs a class that only has 1, dont get me wrong, im fine with other classes outdpsing me, what im not ok with is the sheer amount with which they do it.

Well, for a singletarget fight that mage could go frost and close the gap significantly, but I do agree there's a problem with the fire spec at the moment.

He'd still be wrong in the claim of 60-80% of another class dps at the same skill/gear level because that is not quantifiable in that way.

Edit: Now I'm feeling stupid. A 99th percentile firemage on krosus does 706k dps. A 50th Percentile Havoc DH does 704k. Didn't realize it had gotten that bad. A 10th percentile DH will do roughly the same damage as a 50th percentile firemage. Good times.

[Deleted]

Edit: Now I'm feeling stupid. A 99th percentile firemage on krosus does 706k dps. A 50th Percentile Havoc DH does 704k. Didn't realize it had gotten that bad. A 10th percentile DH will do roughly the same damage as a 50th percentile firemage. Good times.

yup and it isnt getting better in 7.2 atm, with the new artifact traits ice lance gets up to 40% extra dmg on frozen targets, fire gets 4 secs increased combust duration and ice lance is already doing something close to 50% of a frost mage's dmg and 4 secs extra combust isnt going to be much of an increase dpswise, im really unhappy with fire's new traits, they are so weak.

[Deleted]

Fire can currently somewhat keep up on AoE fights (supposedly our strength) and cheese with Flame Patch, and they are giving us more AoE with the Phoenix bouncing. ST fire will be worse than it is currently, but AoE should increase. Wonder if the shitty gloves I have will actually be useful on 2-3 target fights now...

[Frostyspeed]

Fire mages are below average in Nighthold, we are about middle pack at best. Our ST is near the bottom but our cleave/AoE is one of the best. Just to let you know, your opener is wrong and mages who have told you otherwise are straight up wrong. This is how you open as a fire mage:

Mirror Image at -3s
Prepot + Fireball precast at -2s
Fireball till crit
Fireball, near end of cast do Combustion + Fire Blast + Pyroblast
Pyroblast,
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast
Meteor
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast ... etc

Always use Fire Blast > Phoenix Flames during combustion but make sure both are on cooldown first (so not max stacks)

After your combustion ends, if you have more than 1 phoenix flames, use one.
After this, you use Fireball spam and when you get a heating up, you fire blast into pyroblast. You NEVER pyroblast without a fireball before it.
Use Meteor ONCE between combustions. So 1st Meteor with Combustion, 2nd meteor without combustion, 3rd meteor with combustion etc. You will need to keep your 2nd meteor for about 30 seconds while its off CD. This changes if you have more than 60% crit, if you do then use meteor on CD. This all changes depending on fight length but thats pretty complicated

Advanced Fire Mage Tips:

-Work out how many meteors/combustions you can fit in a fight to work out meteor/combustion usage. Usually it works out as 1:2:1:2 for how many meteors between combustions
-Save phoenix flames for movement/opportunities where you have fired your Pyroblast but you only have heating up. This only works if you are under the boss or your pyroblast lands before you can start casting again
-Dragons Breath is more DPS while moving than Scorch if you can use it (if the boss is in range)
-Make sure you use shimmer as best as you can, you can make almost any fight 0 dps loss if you move in between Fireball+Pyroblast combos and shimmers.
-Make sure you are using the correct talents, there are a lot of different talent combinations that are good

Skorp: ROP+Cinder+LB
Chronomatic: MI+Meteor+FP/UM/LB (all very close)
Triliax: MI + Meteor + UM
Spellblade: ROP + Meteor + FP
Tichondrius: ROP/MI + CiS + LB
Krosus: MI + Meteor + UM
Star Auger: MI + Meteor + UM
Botanist: ROP + Meteor + FP
Elisande: MI + Meteor + FP/UM
Guldan: MI/ROP + Meteor + FP/LB

If you have legendary helm you always take Alexstraza Fury, if you dont then AF vs FO is most likely just FO (i have helm so i never bothered to check)
If you have bracers: you hard cast pyro as soon as u get the proc, even in combustions
If you have waist: you use scorch instead of pyroblast sub 30%

Thats the majority of how to play fire mage. I may have forgotten some things. If you have any more questions PM me and ill try to replay ASAP.

[pies1]

Pretty sure "middle of the pack" and "below average" aren't synonymous

[cocoabuter]

Some simple tips:
1: use the right talents for a fight. If you're struggling, just keep Conflagration Tier 1 everywhere -- less reactive play, identical damage. I do this as well.
Don't use Kindling, it's bad now. For the progression you participate in, the only changes you should be making are: Meteor (single target) or Cinderstorm (multi target) // Unstable Magic (single target) or Living Bomb (multi target). Yes, if you struggle, Rune of Power is not worth taking over Mirror Images, just stick to those.

2: ABC. Always Be Casting! While casting Fireball, if you have a Heating Up, cast Fire Blast during cast and launch FB>Pyro instant. If you don't, straight away cast FB after your finish the previous! Just keep casting. Don't stop to wait and see if you should use Phoenix Flames, just use them cleverly and don't cap them. Fireblast isn't on the GCD and can be cast during other casts, it's crucial you do this.

3: Use Diadem with Dragon's Breath on cooldown (unless you know an add wave is coming). Hardcast Pyro with bracers if you don't cap cooldowns or have any up, use shimmer to stay alive.

4: Stay alive.

You have arguably two of the BiS legendaries for NH (Scorch belt might be preferable to have as well), so you should be able to reach >75 percentiles. Apply the basics above, and then you can start looking at more advanced steps to undertake. No point trying to min/max a Rune of Power if you're still struggling with the priority/procs.

Great advice here

[Frostyspeed]

"Below average, middle of the pack at best." Self explanatory.

[Deleted]

Fire mages are below average in Nighthold, we are about middle pack at best. Our ST is near the bottom but our cleave/AoE is one of the best. Just to let you know, your opener is wrong and mages who have told you otherwise are straight up wrong. This is how you open as a fire mage:

Mirror Image at -3s
Prepot + Fireball precast at -2s
Fireball till crit
Fireball, near end of cast do Combustion + Fire Blast + Pyroblast
Pyroblast,
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast
Meteor
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast ... etc

Always use Fire Blast > Phoenix Flames during combustion but make sure both are on cooldown first (so not max stacks)

After your combustion ends, if you have more than 1 phoenix flames, use one.
After this, you use Fireball spam and when you get a heating up, you fire blast into pyroblast. You NEVER pyroblast without a fireball before it.
Use Meteor ONCE between combustions. So 1st Meteor with Combustion, 2nd meteor without combustion, 3rd meteor with combustion etc. You will need to keep your 2nd meteor for about 30 seconds while its off CD. This changes if you have more than 60% crit, if you do then use meteor on CD. This all changes depending on fight length but thats pretty complicated

Advanced Fire Mage Tips:

-Work out how many meteors/combustions you can fit in a fight to work out meteor/combustion usage. Usually it works out as 1:2:1:2 for how many meteors between combustions
-Save phoenix flames for movement/opportunities where you have fired your Pyroblast but you only have heating up. This only works if you are under the boss or your pyroblast lands before you can start casting again
-Dragons Breath is more DPS while moving than Scorch if you can use it (if the boss is in range)
-Make sure you use shimmer as best as you can, you can make almost any fight 0 dps loss if you move in between Fireball+Pyroblast combos and shimmers.
-Make sure you are using the correct talents, there are a lot of different talent combinations that are good

Skorp: ROP+Cinder+LB
Chronomatic: MI+Meteor+FP/UM/LB (all very close)
Triliax: MI + Meteor + UM
Spellblade: ROP + Meteor + FP
Tichondrius: ROP/MI + CiS + LB
Krosus: MI + Meteor + UM
Star Auger: MI + Meteor + UM
Botanist: ROP + Meteor + FP
Elisande: MI + Meteor + FP/UM
Guldan: MI/ROP + Meteor + FP/LB

If you have legendary helm you always take Alexstraza Fury, if you dont then AF vs FO is most likely just FO (i have helm so i never bothered to check)
If you have bracers: you hard cast pyro as soon as u get the proc, even in combustions
If you have waist: you use scorch instead of pyroblast sub 30%

Thats the majority of how to play fire mage. I may have forgotten some things. If you have any more questions PM me and ill try to replay ASAP.

Generally agree, with some small points (that won't make a major difference either way):
- Meteor before combustion (not during), if you use it before it lands it'll be a crit as well and saves you the GCD.
- Due to this, you can also pre-cast pyroblast and MI after if you use Prolonged Power. If you use Wind, precast fireball.
- Just don't cap Phoenix Flames, having 2 is fine, having 3 for a few seconds before combustion is fine too.
- "Advanced" tip is to Cinderstorm before you start your combustion too, as any crit will add a stack of Pyretic, but non-crits won't remove them.

I'm not sure if hardcasting pyro with bracers is worth in Combustion if you have instants, especially since ~4 seconds is a lot of time and you could end up casting it just after it ends. Personally, I only do it if I had to expend my instants on priority adds and it happens to proc, but in that case I tend to pre-cast and combust before the end.

[Narina]

Fire mages are below average in Nighthold, we are about middle pack at best. Our ST is near the bottom but our cleave/AoE is one of the best. Just to let you know, your opener is wrong and mages who have told you otherwise are straight up wrong. This is how you open as a fire mage:

Mirror Image at -3s
Prepot + Fireball precast at -2s
Fireball till crit
Fireball, near end of cast do Combustion + Fire Blast + Pyroblast
Pyroblast,
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast
Meteor
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Fire Blast
Pyroblast
Phoenix Flames
Pyroblast ... etc

Always use Fire Blast > Phoenix Flames during combustion but make sure both are on cooldown first (so not max stacks)

After your combustion ends, if you have more than 1 phoenix flames, use one.
After this, you use Fireball spam and when you get a heating up, you fire blast into pyroblast. You NEVER pyroblast without a fireball before it.
Use Meteor ONCE between combustions. So 1st Meteor with Combustion, 2nd meteor without combustion, 3rd meteor with combustion etc. You will need to keep your 2nd meteor for about 30 seconds while its off CD. This changes if you have more than 60% crit, if you do then use meteor on CD. This all changes depending on fight length but thats pretty complicated

Advanced Fire Mage Tips:

-Work out how many meteors/combustions you can fit in a fight to work out meteor/combustion usage. Usually it works out as 1:2:1:2 for how many meteors between combustions
-Save phoenix flames for movement/opportunities where you have fired your Pyroblast but you only have heating up. This only works if you are under the boss or your pyroblast lands before you can start casting again
-Dragons Breath is more DPS while moving than Scorch if you can use it (if the boss is in range)
-Make sure you use shimmer as best as you can, you can make almost any fight 0 dps loss if you move in between Fireball+Pyroblast combos and shimmers.
-Make sure you are using the correct talents, there are a lot of different talent combinations that are good

Skorp: ROP+Cinder+LB
Chronomatic: MI+Meteor+FP/UM/LB (all very close)
Triliax: MI + Meteor + UM
Spellblade: ROP + Meteor + FP
Tichondrius: ROP/MI + CiS + LB
Krosus: MI + Meteor + UM
Star Auger: MI + Meteor + UM
Botanist: ROP + Meteor + FP
Elisande: MI + Meteor + FP/UM
Guldan: MI/ROP + Meteor + FP/LB

If you have legendary helm you always take Alexstraza Fury, if you dont then AF vs FO is most likely just FO (i have helm so i never bothered to check)
If you have bracers: you hard cast pyro as soon as u get the proc, even in combustions
If you have waist: you use scorch instead of pyroblast sub 30%

Thats the majority of how to play fire mage. I may have forgotten some things. If you have any more questions PM me and ill try to replay ASAP.

I was under the impression you do not cast bracers during combustion even if you get proc. You finish out your combustion rotation then cast the proc because you should have at least 5 seconds left on bracer proc at the end of combustion depending at what point it proc'd. I had read that it is a dps loss to cast during combustion. Was that wrong? Should I be using my proc during combustion? Seems like I'd waste a lot of my combustion time just hardcasting.

I admit I just got the bracers 2 days ago so I have not had a chance to really play with them but once I got them I did some reading up on how people were using them.

Also using AF always with helm. Again, I thought you use AF with helm during AoE fights but during ST fights FO was a better choice? I think it was said the dps is pretty much equal but the synergy is better doing it that way since usually during AoE fights you would spec RoP and AF and RoP work well together.

[PurechaosSK]

just quit playing like i did

[Schmeebs]

I was under the impression you do not cast bracers during combustion even if you get proc. You finish out your combustion rotation then cast the proc because you should have at least 5 seconds left on bracer proc at the end of combustion depending at what point it proc'd. I had read that it is a dps loss to cast during combustion. Was that wrong? Should I be using my proc during combustion? Seems like I'd waste a lot of my combustion time just hardcasting.

I admit I just got the bracers 2 days ago so I have not had a chance to really play with them but once I got them I did some reading up on how people were using them.

Also using AF always with helm. Again, I thought you use AF with helm during AoE fights but during ST fights FO was a better choice? I think it was said the dps is pretty much equal but the synergy is better doing it that way since usually during AoE fights you would spec RoP and AF and RoP work well together.

its a little bit more complicated than that for the bracers and combustion, if it procs early you use the proc during combustion (Take advantage of the massive ignite tick). The timeframe you can do this increases as you pick up haste trinkets from NH. but if the cast goes off right as combustion ends it snot worth it. Its also worth it to hardcase and use combustion at the end of the cast.

[Frostyspeed]

Generally agree, with some small points (that won't make a major difference either way):
- Meteor before combustion (not during), if you use it before it lands it'll be a crit as well and saves you the GCD.
- Due to this, you can also pre-cast pyroblast and MI after if you use Prolonged Power. If you use Wind, precast fireball.
- Just don't cap Phoenix Flames, having 2 is fine, having 3 for a few seconds before combustion is fine too.
- "Advanced" tip is to Cinderstorm before you start your combustion too, as any crit will add a stack of Pyretic, but non-crits won't remove them.

I'm not sure if hardcasting pyro with bracers is worth in Combustion if you have instants, especially since ~4 seconds is a lot of time and you could end up casting it just after it ends. Personally, I only do it if I had to expend my instants on priority adds and it happens to proc, but in that case I tend to pre-cast and combust before the end.

1) It is objectively more DPS to use Meteor during combustion because of the extra damage of PI. The opening rotation I linked is the highest maximum DPS opener right now for fire mages. (I did the math and many people tried to refute it and eventually accepted it, this was on altered-time forums).
2) You should precast fireball not pyroblast because of the Enhanced pyrotechnics buff especially if youre using the max DPS opener that I linked
3) Yes having 3 stacks of PF is fine if combustion is being used in the next 15s.
4) The cinderstorm opener is different but i did not expand on it since its not used in many fights
5) Im 100% sure you hard cast pyro in combustion. Its definitely better DPS. Its very well documented as well that its a DPS gain and has been proven in real life scenarios. However, you only do it when you can finish the pyroblast cast DURING combustion. If you have 2s left, and pyro is a 3s cast, you do not hard cast and instead wait till combustion is over.

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I was under the impression you do not cast bracers during combustion even if you get proc. You finish out your combustion rotation then cast the proc because you should have at least 5 seconds left on bracer proc at the end of combustion depending at what point it proc'd. I had read that it is a dps loss to cast during combustion. Was that wrong? Should I be using my proc during combustion? Seems like I'd waste a lot of my combustion time just hardcasting.

I admit I just got the bracers 2 days ago so I have not had a chance to really play with them but once I got them I did some reading up on how people were using them.

Also using AF always with helm. Again, I thought you use AF with helm during AoE fights but during ST fights FO was a better choice? I think it was said the dps is pretty much equal but the synergy is better doing it that way since usually during AoE fights you would spec RoP and AF and RoP work well together.

Like i mentioned in a post above, using pyroblast hardcast during combustion is fine as long as the cast finishes while combustion is still up.
I havent played with AF much single target but im pretty sure the DPS is about the same if not better for AF on single target, and if youre using ROP its even better. Ontop of this, there is not a single fight where its pure patchwerk, even Krosus has a lot of adds you can snipe with DB which would increase your DPS immensely.

[nickseng]

1) I
4) The cinderstorm opener is different but i did not expand on it since its not used in many fights

It's basically casting Combust just as the Cinders are about to hit, making all of them auto-crit. You start your combusts with 5 stacks of PI right away.

[Deleted]

1) It is objectively more DPS to use Meteor during combustion because of the extra damage of PI. The opening rotation I linked is the highest maximum DPS opener right now for fire mages. (I did the math and many people tried to refute it and eventually accepted it, this was on altered-time forums).
2) You should precast fireball not pyroblast because of the Enhanced pyrotechnics buff especially if youre using the max DPS opener that I linked
3) Yes having 3 stacks of PF is fine if combustion is being used in the next 15s.
4) The cinderstorm opener is different but i did not expand on it since its not used in many fights
5) Im 100% sure you hard cast pyro in combustion. Its definitely better DPS. Its very well documented as well that its a DPS gain and has been proven in real life scenarios. However, you only do it when you can finish the pyroblast cast DURING combustion. If you have 2s left, and pyro is a 3s cast, you do not hard cast and instead wait till combustion is over.

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Like i mentioned in a post above, using pyroblast hardcast during combustion is fine as long as the cast finishes while combustion is still up.
I havent played with AF much single target but im pretty sure the DPS is about the same if not better for AF on single target, and if youre using ROP its even better. Ontop of this, there is not a single fight where its pure patchwerk, even Krosus has a lot of adds you can snipe with DB which would increase your DPS immensely.

Ok, thanks for expanding a bit on your answers, I'll give those a try myself. Fingers crossed that one of the haste trinkets finally drops for me...

[Deleted]

With the ledgy belt, do we just spam scortch 30% and under? I was using fire blast > Scortch > Pyro. Unless i have hot streak then i go Scortch > Pyro, basicaly keeping FB to make sure i scortch into HS

[gallamann]

With the ledgy belt, do we just spam scortch 30% and under? I was using fire blast > Scortch > Pyro. Unless i have hot streak then i go Scortch > Pyro, basicaly keeping FB to make sure i scortch into HS

If I don't get a HU from the Pyro, then yes <30% with belt I blow a FB/PF to force the HU. Only exception I have been using is if I can squeeze in a full combust before boss dies, then I want FB at 2/ PF at 2 and start combust with a HS forced from 2 scorches.

So scorch/pyro until pryo doesn't crit then FB while casting scorch, or if no FB then PF after pyro then into scorch. Note, it is easy to cast a scorch before knowing if prior pyro provided a HU because of pyro travel time.

Having high crit is nice here, see more frequent chains of scorch/pryo.

[Frostyspeed]

It's basically casting Combust just as the Cinders are about to hit, making all of them auto-crit. You start your combusts with 5 stacks of PI right away.

Yes i know about the cinderstorm opener, i just posted the meteor opener and stuck to that, didnt really wanna diverge since most fights you dont really use cinderstorm in mythic nighthold, except like Tichondrius if you do the cheese tactic, and Skorpyron

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If I don't get a HU from the Pyro, then yes <30% with belt I blow a FB/PF to force the HU. Only exception I have been using is if I can squeeze in a full combust before boss dies, then I want FB at 2/ PF at 2 and start combust with a HS forced from 2 scorches.

So scorch/pyro until pryo doesn't crit then FB while casting scorch, or if no FB then PF after pyro then into scorch. Note, it is easy to cast a scorch before knowing if prior pyro provided a HU because of pyro travel time.

Having high crit is nice here, see more frequent chains of scorch/pryo.

Crit is by far the worst stat during scorch phase because of the fact your Scorch is a guaranteed crit and so is your Fire Blast/Phoenix Flame. Haste pulls ahead the most sub 30%. Also, there is no 'definite' playstyle below 30% other than using Scorch as your generator instead of Fireball. There is no need to use PF/FBlast for specific scenarios. Its best to save them for periods of procs/multi target and keeping them uncapped. Even if you save them and the boss is like 4% HP, and you just chain PF and Fblasts and Pyros without scorching at the end, its the same DPS. If you save your PF/FBlast for periods of procs/adds then youll see more DPS sniping opportunities.

Tl;dr It doesnt matter what you do with Fblast/PF under 30%. You just use scorch sub 30% and use PF and FBlast like you do before 30%. As long as you finish the fight with 0 on both and you never hit max stacks then it doesnt matter. Ideally you want to use them during procs/rune/pots etc

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With the ledgy belt, do we just spam scortch 30% and under? I was using fire blast > Scortch > Pyro. Unless i have hot streak then i go Scortch > Pyro, basicaly keeping FB to make sure i scortch into HS

Generally, you want to get a hot streak using whatever you want, and then cast a Scorch Pyro after that, this is because of the extra PI stack you get from the additional stack. I made a comment about this earlier. The tl;dr is that with good RNG this is equal DPS as any other method of Scorch Scorch Pyro or Scorch Fblast Pyro or whatever, but with bad RNG its higher DPS than any other method. Make sure you dont cap PF or Fblast as well ofcourse.

[mastalugwe]

Fire mage is still strong, if you get good RNG

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just quit playing like i did

yeah that must be the solution!