Warcraft Chronicle Vol 2 (Warning: Spoilers)

[Rhlor]

I meant the Orcs and the Draenei specifically. The other races of the Horde and Alliance would no doubt want to take their claim, but those two races I can imagine collectively saying "ugh, not that hellhole again."

Most orcs of the horde did not know draenor like thrall

[Mgann-Morzz]

Yes, we can certaintly blame him lmao. Lots of characters have had terrible pasts (hello Thrall,) that doesn't mean they're excused at all or suddendly they should embrance hatred and lust. That's certainly the point, that he craved more and more even before he got on board with the Legion, and didn't stop. Gul'dan is, was and will always continue to be the definition of the most vile character in Warcraft. (Which I love for)

Yeah Gul'dan at his core was pretty much always a horrid person, yeah he had a sad early life, so what. Most everything he did was his choice and by the end he was so utterly inthralled with power that he tried to pull and "EVILER THAN THOU" on the fucking LEGION.

I mean were talking about a guy who embraces titles like "Darkness Incarnate" "Destroyer of Dreams" and such. Gul'Dan is basically the Emperor Palpatine of Warcraft, a 100% evil genius manipulator and extremely powerful in the dark arts , who totally embraces it and seems to freaking enjoy all of it. I love the guy as a character, he's a great villain but he is NOT a sympathetic character just cause he had a shitty childhood.

[Rhlor]

Ok, so we finally got the attempted retcon for why Kil'jaeden abandoned Gul'dan but then calls out Gul'dan for betraying the Legion in the Tomb of Sargeras audio log. It is very stupid:

• During Shattrath, Kil’jaeden met with Sargeras to inform him of his work
• Sargeras saw opportunity to use orcs as agents to attack Azeroth
• Kil’jaeden ordered to cease communication with Gul’dan and other orcs
• Sargeras wanted orcs unruly, brink of self-destruction, so they would beg for more

This makes no sense. Mannoroth and other Demons were on Draenor and Sargeras knew about the portal about to open, why not have the Orcs summon more Demons and prepare a realiable army to invade Azeroth with? You know, exactly like they tried to do during the Burning Crusade Expansion, but here they had loyal Warlocks even capable of summoning Archmonde to Draenor as we see in Warlords.

Sorry Blizzard, but this lore still fails to explain why the Demons didnt help the corrupted Horde in invading Azeroth. I guess Sargeras and the Legion are really dumb?

In a battle of the Roman civil war caesar took his army to a very difficult situation where he was to win or die but left space for the forces of pompey to have a chance to escape, this he did because he knew that a desperate army struggling to survive fighting With greater fertility than an army that has the possibility of escape.

[tristannarutofan]

Yeah Gul'dan at his core was pretty much always a horrid person, yeah he had a sad early life, so what. Most everything he did was his choice and by the end he was so utterly inthralled with power that he tried to pull and "EVILER THAN THOU" on the fucking LEGION.

I mean were talking about a guy who embraces titles like "Darkness Incarnate" "Destroyer of Dreams" and such. Gul'Dan is basically the Emperor Palpatine of Warcraft, a 100% evil genius manipulator and extremely powerful in the dark arts , who totally embraces it and seems to freaking enjoy all of it. I love the guy as a character, he's a great villain but he is NOT a sympathetic character just cause he had a shitty childhood.

Brooklyn 99 puts it well.

"Cool motive. Still murder"

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In a battle of the Roman civil war caesar took his army to a very difficult situation where he was to win or die but left space for the forces of pompey to have a chance to escape, this he did because he knew that a desperate army struggling to survive fighting With greater fertility than an army that has the possibility of escape.

Healthy happy peopke have a bad habit of talking to enemues and realuzing they dont need to commit genocide. The iron horde was greatly hindered by their penchant for enslaving people instead of killing/eating them like the horde. Allowing us to free slaves and use them against them. Its like you said a desperate army willing to kill any enemy because they are starved is much easier to manipulate

[Deleted]

This thread reminds me why I loved so much the early Alliance and Horde. So much in-fighting, politics, ruthlesness and self-sacrifice. I loved early Warcraft.

Don't confuse books written 10+ years after with early Warcraft.



The movie from last summer wasn't based on Warcraft 1 either. It was loosely based on a book that was very loosely based on a video game with the same name.

[Deleted]

Sargeras had excellent control over Medivh, he forced him to kill his servants, murder pretty much the entire Order of Tirisfal, open the Dark Portal and nearly kill his own mother. Sargeras not having control or the Orcs not accepting a "human" as their leader is no excuse for this. Kil'Jaeden or Archimonde could have easily led the Demon army.....which is exactly what we see when Gul'dan enforces the Legion's will on the Horde in Tanaan during Warlords.

The new conversation between KJ and Archimonde during Shattrah should have gone realistically gone down like this:

KJ: "Master, I have enslaved the Orcs through this Warlock Gul'dan, what is your bidding?"
Sargeras: "Excellent, my Avatar can open the way to this world through a portal and we will once again invade Azeroth in a full invasion! I will sit back and only open the portal while you Order Gul'dan to Fel infuse the entire Horde, start building forge camps and summon Archimonde. Then when the portal is ready, a the Might of the Legion will pour onto Azeroth!


But that is not what happened, instead the new lore has is go down like this:

KJ: "Master, I have enslaved the Orcs through this Warlock Gul'dan, what is your bidding?"
Sargeras "STOP TALKING TO THE ORCS RIGHT NOW!" I WANT THEM TO INVADE AZEROTH BUT YOU MUST GIVE THEM NO SUPPORT AT ALL BECASUE THAT JUST WOULDNT BE FAIR FOR THE MORTALS ON AZEROTH!!!!"
KJ: "Master, that does not seem wise, we have perfect oppertunity here to....."
Sargeras: "NO, WE DO IT MY TERRIBLY INEFFEICIENT WAY! I WANT THE ORCS UNRULY SO THEY WILL BEG FOR MORE OR SOMETHING!"


See what I mean? Sargeras is supposed to be smart and cunning. Not fully taking over the orcs and using them to get the Legion to Azeroth (Which we know they can do on Draenor as per Warlords) makes him far less of a villain then he should be. The guy had an "I-win-button" and decided not to use it because "He wanted the orcs mad and desperate" which makes no sense.

So far two arguments in defense of this obvious plot hole have been debunked:

1. Kil'jaden didnt use Gul'dan becasue he didnt trust him is not true because the order to not aid the orcs came from Sargeras.
2. Sargeras cant control Medivh isnt rue either because all Medivh has to do here is open the portal...which he did.

What we are left with is Sargeras having brain damage and not understanding how to invade properly. Geez, what a good villain!

Alright, let me rephrase this for you.

1) Sargeras couldn't simply force Medivh to summon the Legion, it is made that clear, which is why he had to twist his thoughts. There are always some thresholds one will not cross ever, for Medivh, it were his mother's murder and the Legion.

2) The whole point of the plan is to avoid the pitfalls of the War of the Ancients, something that has been stated repeatedly in the Scepter of Sargeras book text, this very Chronicle and so on. In the War of the Ancients, the Legion entered the fray straight away, yet they still lost after the world banded together, despite being led by Archimonde and supported by the great Azshara. This time, Sargeras wanted to inflitrate and weaken Azeroth from within first. The Horde had proven a perfect instrument, as it drew nobody's attention until it was late (not even of the neighbouring kingdoms, let alone the Kaldorei, the Dragonflights and so on).

3) In the light of this context, your Warlords of Draenor comparison makes absolutely no sense. By the time of Warlords, we knew the Legion was present and behind everything on Draenor, there was literally no point in secrecy.

I mean I think to some extent Blizzard is presenting the destruction of Draenor as so extreme to give an excuse to the Horde invading Azeroth, i.e. they had no choice.

I suppose, but it has been the part of lore for ages. Even the Warcraft II manual described Draenor as a dying planet and the orcs on the brink of self-destruction.

[Deleted]

yes but it really puts it further into perspective when you are told that the Warsong ate their own wolves so as not to die of starvation. of course that's right after describing the atrocities most clans committed on Draenor so not easy to feel any pity about them

It certainly makes it all look even more desperate and bleak, I just don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

[George Costanza]

Too bad WoD wasnt all of this.

That would be awesome.

[George Costanza]

If WoD had as much content as Legion does, it could have been an amazing expansion.

Had it had more quests more story at endgame and as much content as legion has, then yes.

Yes it would.

But Blizzard cant even get An expansion about the Burning legion to work.

[Deleted]

We have some AU Dreaenei exarchs in MU now but not Yrel.

And where is further story on Anzu?!

For now, most of the stuff is not new at all.

[Aeula]

If WoD had as much content as Legion does, it could have been an amazing expansion.

Depends on the content. World quests and mythic+ wouldn't have saved the expansion for me.

[Rend Blackhand]

I really like how Blackhand has been portrayed in this book. He's clearly not Gul'Dan's little bitch. There was even something saying that Blackhand started to distrust the warlocks and tensions were seriously high between him and the Shadow Council.

[Rend Blackhand]

That has always been true though, hasn't it?

Not really, there wasn't really a lot of lore about Blackhand specifically apart from a few appearances in Rise of the Horde. Blackhand seemed to be shown as a puppet who was easily manipulated by the warlock

[Deleted]

That has always been true though, hasn't it?

Not exactly, no. It was like that during the days of Warcraft II, but Rise of the Horde and some other material of that time changed that somewhat.

[Deleted]

Goddamn. It's not like Cho'gall needed any more points in the coolness trait, but they somewhat managed to make him much cooler now...

[Aucald]

Most orcs of the horde did not know draenor like thrall

I don't know about "most," I don't think we've got the demographics of the Horde to pointedly know what the ratio of younger Orcs to veterans of the First and Second War. There were two generations of Orcs who experienced the fall of Draenor alongside the First and Second Wars (e.g. Blackhand's generation which contains Orcs like Varok Saurfang and Eitrigg) and the younger generation such as Dal'Rend, Maim, and Garrosh who knew well enough what had happened - displaced guilt over his father's actions was a cornerstone of Garrosh's story in TBC.

[DeicideUH]

Don't confuse books written 10+ years after with early Warcraft.



The movie from last summer wasn't based on Warcraft 1 either. It was loosely based on a book that was very loosely based on a video game with the same name.

I played Warcraft 1 & 2. Warcraft 2, with all its nations, clans and story made me love Warcraft and endure it for all these years. The games didn't have a lot of storytelling, but the narration at start of each mission was worth it. Always loved the end of Warcraft 2 expansion, with Ner'zhul escaping and the Azeroth heroes sacrificing themselves for their world.

I miss all the clan infighting and national intrigues from that era. They're the element that I miss the most in current Warcraft. When WoW came to be, I was very disappointed that all the clans were gone and only Stormwind remained from all the human nations.

This thread made me realise why I like the elves so much: they are the most complex race right now, with all the many factions (high elf, highborne, night elf, blood elf, nightborne). Dwarves, with its 3 main clans, are also interesting. Would love to see the return of clan structure into orcs, or to see other human nations have the spotlight (at least now we have Gilneas and Dalaran besides Stormwind)

[Deleted]

Got em boys.

Gnna read it first, then I'll see if I post some artwork.

Dunno how to change size sorry.

Edit: size adjusted.

[Deleted]

[
Got em boys.

Gnna read it first, then I'll see if I post some artwork.

Dunno how to change size sorry.

There's one thing I need to see. The territorial map of the Eastern Kingdoms that's supposed to be in there.

[Baneador]

-snip/image-
Got em boys.

Gnna read it first, then I'll see if I post some artwork.

Dunno how to change size sorry.

Thanks, i need to see images