Favourite American Gun??

[Annoying]

Or just get a gun that's more effective that doesn't need one...? You're much more likely to put someone down with a 9mm, than you are with a .45 and a suppressor. And also going to save money doing it.

But, with a 9mm you aren't a tacticool oper8or.

Also, a 9mm will still cause permanent hearing damage indoors. Suppressor all the things.

[Kellhound]

Or just get a gun that's more effective that doesn't need one...? You're much more likely to put someone down with a 9mm, than you are with a .45 and a suppressor. And also going to save money doing it.

The .45ACP is a more effective round than the 9mm, especially if using run-of-the-mill JHPs.

[chazus]

The .45ACP is a more effective round than the 9mm, especially if using run-of-the-mill JHPs.

It's not more effective if you can't hit your target. Most people who go out and buy something like that for home defense probably don't use it often, and stumbling around in the dark or while threatened, with the kick, you probably won't hit anything.

Hitting a target is more important than having a large round to do damage.

[Kellhound]

It's not more effective if you can't hit your target. Most people who go out and buy something like that for home defense probably don't use it often, and stumbling around in the dark or while threatened, with the kick, you probably won't hit anything.

Hitting a target is more important than having a large round to do damage.

If you cant hit with a .45ACP you are not very likely to hit with a 9mm. The recoil of a .45 is not much greater than a 9mm in a full size handgun, and for me it is easier to handle than the snappy recoil of the 9. My mom doesnt shoot very much, but even she could handle the recoil of a .357Mag out of a snub nose revolver, and she isnt a very large woman.

[Svifnymr]

Sauer is used by SIG to legally sell Swiss designed firearms, its not really the driving force.

That's how it started, but SIG , the swiss company, only had the 210. The P series guns were developed in Germany and SIG hasn't owned SIG-Sauer for a long time. As I said, I'm sure there were Swiss engineers at the German factory when they developed the guns, but it was all in Germany.

Due to Germany's export ban, most guns are made in the USA anyway now. The P5 was basically an improved P1, the P6 was basically a hipower action, only the P7 really changed anything, and that went no where. I'm sure the P320 was mostly an American design anyway, but I dislike it, so don't care.

I have an M11-a1, and I'd have been happy with the Army taking up a P229/ M11 or similar, but that didn't fit the MHS program, so blah. The P series, in general, is made for my hands, vs the Glock which is boxey with odd finger grove placement and bad angles. I also like the Berettas, though never really got behind the PX4 and not sure the APX will be any more to my liking than the P320.

If I cant stop an intruder with 7 rounds of 12ga, I have serious issues that a Wonder 9 is not likely to resolve.

If you grab a mossberg with 5+1, but since you keep it empty it's only 5, you've got slower follow up shots and 5 misses and you're out. Glock 17 is 17+1, much easier/ faster to shoot. AR15 in 223/300/9mm is 30 rounds and much easier to shoot.

Obviously a suppressed 9mm SBR is a good compromise. Grab yourself an Evo9/ AR15 in 9/ MP5 or even a Beretta CX4.

The one thing a shotgun has going for it that I like is the ability to reload while still active for shooting. Similarly I always thought a nice Marlin 1894 in 357 or 44spl would be a great defense gun. You can load it as you go, fire pretty quick with low recoil and not as much noise, and if you get taken to court, they hold up this cowboy rifle and can't call it an assault weapon or anything.

[Cûr]

And the 9mm target is still alive and kickin!

Ive had both .45s and 9mms that had 5" groups at 25 yards and sub 2" groups at 25. The .45 wins for me because of its "nicer" recoil (I dont like the snappy recoil of 9mms), and better terminal performance. For that I am willing to take 10rnds over 17rnds.

You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to pistol rounds. Really dude, go back to video games and stop spreading this crap like it's based in reality.

Ugh.

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The .45ACP is a more effective round than the 9mm, especially if using run-of-the-mill JHPs.

No it isn't. Jesus. Stop posting, you're making everyone in the thread dumber.

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While they share similar external design and the 7.62X39mm is influenced by the 8x33mm Kurz, they are very different firearms.

Carbine length rifles using gas operated systems with an intermediate cartridge... yeah TOTALLY different.

Stop talking about guns, seriously.

[Svifnymr]

But, with a 9mm you aren't a tacticool oper8or.

Also, a 9mm will still cause permanent hearing damage indoors. Suppressor all the things.

The advantage with suppressing a 45 is that you can just buy 45 230 gr and it's mostly all subsonic. The disadvantage is, bigger hole, more noise.
9mm, finding 147gr isn't difficult if you order things, but in stock at local range may not be as easy. Smaller hole = quieter, and since 1/2X28 is same thread, I can use my 9mm can on my 22's also.

And really, you don't have to let folks know you're wimping it with the 9mm:


Not like a glance will tell you which is a 9mm...

[TITAN308]

With modern day ammo, the differences between common pistol caliber ballistics is almost negligible.

The trade off is do you want slightly more ballistics for what usually amounts to half the capable capacity or not.

I once took a new match grade 1911 to one of my classes and that will be the first and last time I ever even consider one of those guns for carry. Parts of the class that required multiple reloads opened my eyes to how much of a disadvantage the 1911 really is with its often average capacity of 8 rounds (or less).

Yes I understand there are double stack 1911's - but those are certainly not the most common variants people have when they buy a 1911.

[Kalis]

Or just get a gun that's more effective that doesn't need one...? You're much more likely to put someone down with a 9mm, than you are with a .45 and a suppressor. And also going to save money doing it.

All guns should have suppressors fitted, even 9mm.

[Svifnymr]

You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to pistol rounds. Really dude, go back to video games and stop spreading this crap like it's based in reality.

Recoil is a bit subjective. Most shooters find that the 45 has more of a "push" than a snap, whereas the 9mm is snappier. This is more pronounced with lighter/faster louds for each. I'm not a huge fan of the rounds that label themselves as more powerful by going with a super light bullet and upping the velocity. Just because velocity gets squared doesn't mean the round really has that much energy in a useful sense.

Incidentally, this is why I never liked the 40, more recoil than a 9mm, but snappy, bleh.

Carbine length rifles using gas operated systems with an intermediate cartridge... yeah TOTALLY different.

Stop talking about guns, seriously.

Geez, it's a discussion, not an argument, lets keep it civil and have fun before the anti's around here come in and kill things.

[Annoying]

With modern day ammo, the differences between common pistol caliber ballistics is almost negligible.

The trade off is do you want slightly more ballistics for what usually amounts to half the capable capacity or not.

I once took a new match grade 1911 to one of my classes and that will be the first and last time I ever even consider one of those guns for carry. Parts of the class that required multiple reloads opened my eyes to how much of a disadvantage the 1911 really is with its often average capacity of 8 rounds.

Yes I understand there are double stack 1911's - but those are certainly not the most common variants people have when they buy a 1911.

I don't think I'd ever go with a single stack handgun. I went with my .40S&W USP entirely due to how well it fit my hand. I figure that the hand fit is probably way more important than the ballistics in any realistic situation.

[TITAN308]

I don't think I'd ever go with a single stack handgun. I went with my .40S&W USP entirely due to how well it fit my hand. I figure that the hand fit is probably way more important than the ballistics in any realistic situation.

Yea I can't do single stack and I can't do "mouse" guns.

I carry a CZ P-07.

[Svifnymr]

With modern day ammo, the differences between common pistol caliber ballistics is almost negligible.

The trade off is do you want slightly more ballistics for what usually amounts to half the capable capacity or not.

Depends on how you're carrying of course. My New Agent is bigger than a 9mm pocket gun, but it's fine size for my pocket. It's 7+1 vs comparable capacities in the 9mms. I agree that high cap 45's are quite often too big/ boxey, but I also believe that no one is limited to just one gun, so buy whatever matches your shoes that day.

I once took a new match grade 1911 to one of my classes and that will be the first and last time I ever even consider one of those guns for carry. Parts of the class that required multiple reloads opened my eyes to how much of a disadvantage the 1911 really is with its often average capacity of 8 rounds.

Yes I understand there are double stack 1911's - but those are certainly not the most common variants people have when they buy a 1911.

A lot of these courses of fire are specifically designed to handicap non-high-cap guns though. Like in 3 gun matches, they're fun, but at no point should you be putting down your rifle to engage with your shotgun. Same way they used to limit mags to 10 rounds to balance things out more, now they lean the other way.

Not that there's anything wrong with 9mm's, but a lot of it comes down to personal preference. I used to work at a shop, and a couple months ago when hanging out at the shop near me, a guy was talking about not liking the mag releases on the trigger guard (HK/Walther style). I was like, sure, you could always be comfortable with your gun, buy what you want... but in my years of selling, it was very rare that I ever saw someone have an extra mag for their carry gun. Mag changes for most folks are in classes and competition and never make it to the street.

[EyelessCrow]

I don't think I'd ever go with a single stack handgun. I went with my .40S&W USP entirely due to how well it fit my hand. I figure that the hand fit is probably way more important than the ballistics in any realistic situation.

I had a Springfield XDS 9mm..the thing felt so thin. It felt good in the store but shooting it I hated. that was my first lesson of shooting a gun before buying it. Tried a glock 19 and absolutely loved it. plus being double stack. It's not too big either I have a very large frame so I could probably conceal a 17 if I wanted.

[TITAN308]

A lot of these courses of fire are specifically designed to handicap non-high-cap guns though. Like in 3 gun matches, they're fun, but at no point should you be putting down your rifle to engage with your shotgun. Same way they used to limit mags to 10 rounds to balance things out more, now they lean the other way.

I don't do 3-gun, the classes I attend are real world application training courses. In the case of the course where I took the 1911 it was a semi-room clearing course that dealt with target identification (ballistic dummies marked shoot / no shoot) and proper backdrop identification (aka where is the bullet going to go beyond the target). This particular drill could be cleared by one 15+ magazines. I on the other hand had to reload once and one other guy who had a sub compact had to reload twice.

While the need to have to expend 15+ rounds in a real situation is small, I just cannot come to terms with why someone would opt to carry half the capacity when guns of the same size can easily carry double. The weight difference between 8 rounds and 16 rounds is also nearly negligible.

[Viikkis]

M1 Garand because it's just such a classic.

[Svifnymr]

I don't do 3-gun, the classes I attend are real world application training courses.

Yeah, I was just using that as an example, I'm sure none of the training classes have you put down your rifle. Even transition drills you retain your rifle.

While the need to have to expend 15+ rounds in a real situation is small, I just cannot come to terms with why someone would opt to carry half the capacity when guns of the same size can easily carry double. The weight difference between 8 rounds and 16 rounds is also nearly negligible.

As I said, my New Agent is thinner than a G26, maybe not as thin as a G43, but for capacity I'm 7+1 vs 10+1 or 6+1. Certainly none of these guns are comparable to a full size gun, but when choosing between guns for pocket carry (which many people hate!) it's not a handicap to have 45. Also granted, my New Agent cost the same as the G26+G43, but so be it!

My M11 is 15+1, and certainly not a big gun. It is a noticeable difference when carrying in Florida though.

[Kellhound]

You have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to pistol rounds. Really dude, go back to video games and stop spreading this crap like it's based in reality.

Ugh.

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No it isn't. Jesus. Stop posting, you're making everyone in the thread dumber.

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Carbine length rifles using gas operated systems with an intermediate cartridge... yeah TOTALLY different.

Stop talking about guns, seriously.

Lets see, I have been shooting firearms since 1980, I reload, I have owned over 40 firearms two of which were .45s and 3 were 9mm (plus a .40S&W, a .357Mag and 2 .44Mags). On the other hand, I dont play first person shooters.

Normal 9mm:
115gr JHP
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 1180
Muzzle Energy (ft lbs) 356

Normal .45ACP
230 JHP
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 900
Muzzle Energy (ft lbs) 414

The .45 is a larger, heaver bullet, so even though it is travelling slower it has more energy. Data shows that for similar loads, the .45 is a few percentage points ahead of the 9mm in effectiveness except for the most exotic 9mm rounds that are equal to top end .45ACP rounds.

[Sesshomaru]

(^ Clicky clicky)

[TITAN308]

The .45 is a larger, heaver bullet, so even though it is travelling slower it has more energy. Data shows that for similar loads, the .45 is a few percentage points ahead of the 9mm in effectiveness except for the most exotic 9mm rounds that are equal to top end .45ACP rounds.

And that is my basic argument. The difference is almost negligible with modern day ammo.

Personally I carry 135gr Hornady FlexLock Critical Duty rounds in my 9mm.

I know its not the venerable Federal HST 147gr, but its a nice middle ground between 124gr and 147gr.

They have some good ballistic pics/charts on their company page: http://www.hornady.com/store/9MM-135...Critical-DUTY/

I prefer a sub-sonic round even when not suppressed for better control and follow up.