Why pvp feels so bad this expansion

[Ohmega]

how much training of a single target and mechanically following a damage rotation do you see in this video?

When he is on the target, is he not going through a damage rotation? Are people in Legion not setting focus targets, timing interrupts and ccs on something other than what they are hitting?

[Crruor]

how much training of a single target and mechanically following a damage rotation do you see in this video?

Doesnt mean that there wasnt exactly the same thing. There were comps that trained 1 target all the way from TBC to legion, specs were damage mattered in pvp existed all the way through wow.

The main difference is i think that the game was way more bursty then it is now. And way more consistently bursty i.e every few seconds you could burst hard, rather then every few minutes (i.e in woltk a sub rogue with a full energy bar could 100-0 most people just with either a kindey, or a vanish swap, and backstab spam if he caught them in a bad situation, same with a ele shaman getting a lavaburst into chain lighting into a shock or a mage doing a shatter combo, or a war critting for 30% of someones health with an autoattack).

[FelPlague]

how much training of a single target and mechanically following a damage rotation do you see in this video?

i cant see anything because that garbage is trash, horrible res and not english

[Dizzeeyooo]

There were comps that trained 1 target all the way from TBC to legion, specs were damage mattered in pvp existed all the way through wow

yep, and there were also comps that didn't just train one target

now, every single comp in the gain trains pve damage into the easiest to kill target on the enemy team

i cant see anything because that garbage is trash, horrible res and not english

better go back in time to 2011 and tell them to make their vod recording technology better

[Ohmega]

Doesnt mean that there wasnt exactly the same thing. There were comps that trained 1 target all the way from TBC to legion, specs were damage mattered in pvp existed all the way through wow.

The main difference is i think that the game was way more bursty then it is now. And way more consistently bursty i.e every few seconds you could burst hard, rather then every few minutes.

Once again, this is correct. You have to invest more in single targets to bring them down these days, on top of timing your interrupts. Nothing of major importance/impact that takes place in that video is missing from modern, Legion PvP.

The rogue "100-0" comment is what I was trying to get at previously. Legion PvP does not see this occurring and that is an element of what is causing these people fits. They are not being rewarded with a win for a moment of good play. You have to do it for longer stretches of time in Legion (which I prefer).

- - - Updated - - -

yep, and there were also comps that didn't just train one target

now, every single comp in the gain trains pve damage into the easiest to kill target on the enemy team

When I play 3s, my comp does not involve the training of one target. Nor does it involve a static PvE mini-game.

So..........yeah........

[shoegazing]

When he is on the target, is he not going through a damage rotation? Are people in Legion not setting focus targets, timing interrupts and ccs on something other than what they are hitting?

there is an optimal way to push buttons during burst windows but that is not the same as sticking to a target and PvEing at them while trying to maximize your sustained damage in much the same way that you would PvE at a boss

[Dizzeeyooo]

When I play 3s, my comp does not involve the training of one target. Nor does it involve a static PvE mini-game.

So..........yeah........

probably why you are not higher rated/more well known in the legion pvp scene then

[Ohmega]

there is an optimal way to push buttons during burst windows but that is not the same as sticking to a target and PvEing at them while trying to maximize your sustained damage in much the same way that you would PvE at a boss

Who is doing that? All I do in WoW is PvP, and it is all I have ever done, and "PvE training until death" is simply not taking place (and it never will, for obvious reasons). There is not a single person I play with that would find reality in your critiques of Legion's PvP. Even from a logic standpoint it breaks down almost instantly: What happens when you get CCd or LoS? What happens when someone times something during your burst window? Are people literally NEVER switching targets nor their button order?

Come on, man.

Isn't it more likely that it may feel that way to you on account of targets taking more time to bring down in Legion relative to previous xpacs? Regardless of how long it takes, if there is an optimal order of button pressing, then what exactly makes Legion different other than time to achieve a kill as a function of focused damage?

[FelPlague]

yep, and there were also comps that didn't just train one target

now, every single comp in the gain trains pve damage into the easiest to kill target on the enemy team


better go back in time to 2011 and tell them to make their vod recording technology better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfjrG39smH0
uploaded same year, 1080p

[thatmikeguy]

I like PvP now overall, the big problem for me is having less abilities, and PvP gear should be rewarded as fast as PvE at all levels playing for the same amount of time, with elite at a higher level. With M+ it's just silly now that I mist run the same 5mans hundreds of times to get PvP gear. This system is bad for PvP players that already spend lots of time in PvP. Random BG loot needs changed. Having the different PvP PvE gear settings are good for the game (as Kern told them 11 years ago when he was at Bliz), but the gearing is bad now.

As others have said, it feels less about skill, and more about lining up cooldowns at the correct time with less abilities.

[Dizzeeyooo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfjrG39smH0
uploaded same year, 1080p

clearly the video quality is inversely related to the skill being displayed in the video

[Krusza]

clearly the video quality is inversely related to the skill being displayed in the video

You're arguing with someone who doesn't even PvP (I don't understand why he tries to argue about it) that's why he doesn't know what's going on.

Same sorts of people always say they can't tell what's going on when they watch blizzcon etc.

[FelPlague]

You're arguing with someone who doesn't even PvP (I don't understand why he tries to argue about it) that's why he doesn't know what's going on.

Same sorts of people always say they can't tell what's going on when they watch blizzcon etc.

d...did you even see the argument? what? i was pointing out the first video had HORRIBLE qaulity, and they said "well it was 2011 that was the best" i then linked one from the same year that video was uploaded it, yet it looked so mcu hbetter....

i have liteally said nothing about pvp so far, wtf are you going on about

[Krusza]

d...did you even see the argument? what? i was pointing out the first video had HORRIBLE qaulity, and they said "well it was 2011 that was the best" i then linked one from the same year that video was uploaded it, yet it looked so mcu hbetter....

i have liteally said nothing about pvp so far, wtf are you going on about

You're always hanging out on this board, wasn't specific to this thread. You said you can't see what's going on because of the terrible quality as a way of dismissing it.

[FelPlague]

You're always hanging out on this board, wasn't specific to this thread. You said you can't see what's going on because of the terrible quality as a way of dismissing it.

no i was simply pointing out that the video was legit horrible.... 360p....
person said "that was all that was possible in 2012" i then showed him a video in 1080p from the same year...

also no i really dont spend that much time on pvp board really

also not everyone remembers what icons rogues had in 2012 and what abilities did what back then and what was the dps rotation back then.... that doesent make you "horrible at pvp"

[Krusza]

no i was simply pointing out that the video was legit horrible.... 360p....
person said "that was all that was possible in 2012" i then showed him a video in 1080p from the same year...

also no i really dont spend that much time on pvp board really

also not everyone remembers what icons rogues had in 2012 and what abilities did what back then and what was the dps rotation back then.... that doesent make you "horrible at pvp"

He even writes what's happening in text on screen so people like you can see what's happening.

I don't see the issue.

[A dot Ham]

I explain what's wrong with pvp right now.

I feel like you're literally talking about the topic while playing. Your thoughts are not organized, definitely not concise, and not the least bit persuasive.

Some of your points:

Nerf + Buffs: "Too many too often"
Not a problem AT ALL. Does it suck to have your class nerfed? Absolutely. But in terms of balance constant changes are necessary. We knew that was coming go into into Legion. You don't like the constant changes. I don't like that in past expansions certain classes have remained a powerhouse for multiple seasons, on the flip side there are/were some classes/specs that were SO weak, and were that way... for many seasons/patches, that they just weren't worth playing at all.

Legion PvP Design: "They decided to just wing it"
That isn't true at all. There was an intent to make gear NOT matter. Which in terms of competition makes sense. You should NOT be dominating PvP purely because of your gear. The problem is that it essentially only works for 1 season. Because there are currently no catch up methods. So the disparity between someone playing Legion xpac and those playing for the first time will actually be the worst its been. The bigger/biggest problem is the difference in power level from artifacts.

PvP Progression: "PvP used to have progression"
Blizzard has NEVER liked this. They didn't like that it became easier to get top rated PvP weapons and then use those for PvE progression... so that got changed. But it has always been easier (especially for alts) to get last seasons weapons using a quick honor grind, and then hop into PvE or whatever you choose. (Kind of a moot point now that we have artifacts). To that end I don't know anyone who played PvP that didn't get honor capped or conquest capped at some point. So this idea of "progression" has a cap. You hit that cap LONG before you hit the tippy top of the PvP food chain.

Now granted I will say that specific goals IS important. In an mmo rewards determine where players play. I think we have had too many people playing PvP who actually don't care to PvP simply because it was the easier/more consistent method to increase your characters power level. PvP should be somewhere where players can come compete and test their skills. There should be SOME reward for that... I'm not sure gear is the answer. But Blizzard essentially took away the rewards... but didn't leave any worthwhile rewards that the PvPers wanted for continuing to play.

RNG: I think everyone is pretty fed up with RNG throughout the entire game of WoW... not just PvP. People don't like RNG in performance, they don't want item drops to be RNG. They keep trying to convince us that RNG is fun and is good... and so it permeates our entire experience. Not sure how to be more clear. WE DON'T LIKE RNG!

[FelPlague]

He even writes what's happening in text on screen so people like you can see what's happening.

I don't see the issue.

A FUCKING GAIN i dont care what is going on, i simply was pointing out the video is fucking 360p holy shit and /ignore, cause its like talking to a brick wall with ear plugs

[shoegazing]

Who is doing that? All I do in WoW is PvP, and it is all I have ever done, and "PvE training until death" is simply not taking place (and it never will, for obvious reasons). There is not a single person I play with that would find reality in your critiques of Legion's PvP. Even from a logic standpoint it breaks down almost instantly: What happens when you get CCd or LoS? What happens when someone times something during your burst window? Are people literally NEVER switching targets nor their button order?

Come on, man.

Isn't it more likely that it may feel that way to you on account of targets taking more time to bring down in Legion relative to previous xpacs? Regardless of how long it takes, if there is an optimal order of button pressing, then what exactly makes Legion different other than time to achieve a kill as a function of focused damage?

obviously it's not the 100% literal truth across the board. but there is more of an emphasis on it on it today than ever before. more and more comps that traditionally played a CC/setup/burst playstyle are now pretty much PvEing. look at the assassination RMXs that were ending matches in the first minute by training healers. is that an appropriate playstyle for rogue/mage comps?

even playing sub/frost/disc RMP which should probably be the most setup/cc/burst oriented comp in the entire game, there are many matchups vs teams like MW or rdruid turbo where the enemy healer is able to sit max range while i get trained down regardless of my positioning (they will literally chase me to the back of our room on lordaeron) or cooldown usage. so what am i to do in these situations when i am unable to reach the enemy healer for kidney-->poly? our best hope is to try to land CC on the healer by making him come forward by tunneling PvE damage into one of the dps but even that is a losing proposition because you don't beat the masters of PvE tunneling at their own game, particularly not as sub/frost/disc lol.

i was watching whaazz stream some 3k rated sub/fire RMD the other day and in certain matchups (these mw cleave teams for instance) he would just train the healer 24/7 while his mage trains the dps.

even in the matchups where we are able to play a setup based playstyle it is so scripted compared to previous xpacs. every go begins with kidney-->sheep on the healer while stunning dps. now go watch that Khuna video again and tell me, is that the case?

i am curious, what comp are you playing that you feel is so strategic with its playstyle?

[Crruor]

i cant see anything because that garbage is trash, horrible res and not english

Take this then (even if its just 2s):