Over 2000 guilds stuck at 3/10 mythic, was tuning 7 bosses to 54 traits a mistake?

[sponge5307]

I don't know I did it with my guild and some pugs (pug some healers) and we got 4 bosses down in heroic NH in aobut 2 hours or so... so I don't think it will be that hard. Remember we pug a few healers and dps so we really have no idea how the perform.

[Gorsameth]

I don't know I did it with my guild and some pugs (pug some healers) and we got 4 bosses down in heroic NH in aobut 2 hours or so... so I don't think it will be that hard. Remember we pug a few healers and dps so we really have no idea how the perform.

Please read the thread title
Note especially the word Mythic.

[Deleted]

I don't know I did it with my guild and some pugs (pug some healers) and we got 4 bosses down in heroic NH in aobut 2 hours or so... so I don't think it will be that hard. Remember we pug a few healers and dps so we really have no idea how the perform.

srry to say but this thread is about mythic not hc just so you know

[Dequanacus]

I don't know, every tier gets complained about as "Absolutely requiring X to clear it" when that is almost never the case. All I really see from this is that, because Legion has more sources of player strength (legends, traits) people have more places to shift the blame of underperforming. It's hard to take these kind of complaints seriously when people have always been making them. Especially when it's logical to see an increase in finger pointing with more places to point. I've spent 10 years watching people say "No, if I had [insert item here] I would be doing very well! It's not my fault it's the game!", they are almost always underperforming.

[Gorsameth]

I don't know, every tier gets complained about as "Absolutely requiring X to clear it" when that is almost never the case. All I really see from this is that, because Legion has more sources of player strength (legends, traits) people have more places to shift the blame of underperforming. It's hard to take these kind of complaints seriously when people have always been making them. Especially when it's logical to see an increase in finger pointing with more places to point. I've spent 10 years watching people say "No, if I had [insert item here] I would be doing very well! It's not my fault it's the game!", they are almost always underperforming.

No one is saying people are performing at the max. This thread is about that fact that NH is tuned So high that there is very little room to overgear fights for those who are underperforming.

[Deleted]

No one is saying people are performing at the max. This thread is about that fact that NH is tuned to high that there is very little room to overgear fights for those who are underperforming.

and most people dont seem to get that ^

[cFortyfive]

Bottom line is that NH just isn't that well done. It's over tuned and the fights are poorly designed.

I find tuning fine except for the first few bosses.

3) Blizz has removed the ability to make some aspects of these fights easier. For ex, using addons to help with positioning. It's no coincidence that a fight like Krosus and Spellbinder BOTH use exact positioning mechanics that were previously made much easier using addons like Exorsus raid tools on Kormrok. Those two fights are both less forgiving on fuckups than the vast majority of bosses in HFC and BRH, and not only did they removed the ability for addons to make those easier, but they added MORE of those fights in nighthold.

Krosus spawns aren't static so I am not sure how much exrt would have helped. Pretty sure even before it wouldn't have been able to detect spawn positions. On spell blade - well I guess it would at best save some communication and mark placement which doesn't seem too major though.

the 4th point is the most important.

54 points are at this point casual to reach. I am quite certain they gave mythic a comparatively low ilvl to prevent casuals from crying.

[Dequanacus]

No one is saying people are performing at the max. This thread is about that fact that NH is tuned So high that there is very little room to overgear fights for those who are underperforming.

Yes, but it's a very common assertion in all WoW raids so it's hard to take it seriously in any one instance.

[cFortyfive]

Yes, but it's a very common assertion in all WoW raids so it's hard to take it seriously in any one instance.

Well I'll be fair here it certainly was often easier to outgear encounters in previous raids because there were the usual tools that helped to do so in a rather steady manner like ilvl increases via valor upgrades which are completely missing now.
problem is getting to ilvl900 and 54 traits at this point is incredibly easy in between even just heroic and mythic+. Getting to 905 for someone farming a few mythic bosses is still easy but growth beyond that is largely dependent on decent ilvl procs. There are like 10 guys above 915 and they are probably wearing some shitty ilvl gear specifically for that purpose. That said I am not sure if that should be a problem now three months into the tier.

[stolker]

How about you stop underperforming, and if you don't, you're not entitled to clearing mythic. That's as simple as it is. Let's get one thing straight, as far as hard video games go, mythic raiding in wow is nearly trivial. All the effort is in actually getting everyone to understand fights that are pumped full of arbitrary mechanics... it's akin to blind volume learning of some textbook. It's not hard, it just takes time because it's a lot of stuff to deal with. If you can't handle that, or if your players actually have mechanical problems of focusing on different things at the same time, I suggest Tetris.

I honestly can't believe what kind of loser what honestly ask for nerfs of some content because they are unable to beat it. Yes and I mean loser in every sense of the word. If you're not a complete loser, your instinct will be to power through it and overcome the challenge. Only a complete lowlife loser who wants everything handed to him will try to actually get stuff nerfed down to their level.

[Deleted]

How about you stop underperforming, and if you don't, you're not entitled to clearing mythic. That's as simple as it is. Let's get one thing straight, as far as hard video games go, mythic raiding in wow is nearly trivial. All the effort is in actually getting everyone to understand fights that are pumped full of arbitrary mechanics... it's akin to blind volume learning of some textbook. It's not hard, it just takes time because it's a lot of stuff to deal with. If you can't handle that, or if your players actually have mechanical problems of focusing on different things at the same time, I suggest Tetris.

I honestly can't believe what kind of loser what honestly ask for nerfs of some content because they are unable to beat it. Yes and I mean loser in every sense of the word. If you're not a complete loser, your instinct will be to power through it and overcome the challenge. Only a complete lowlife loser who wants everything handed to him will try to actually get stuff nerfed down to their level.

This. They got NH tuning just perfectly right this time. Its kind of like HFC were the majority of players were stuck on 5/13 untill the itemlvl buff came. And to those saying "yeah but thats 5 Bosses after wich the curve gets higher" - 5/13 is kind of the same as 3/10...the first 3 Bosses are just too easy, thats the only fault in NH tuning.

[KaPe]

This. They got NH tuning just perfectly right this time. Its kind of like HFC were the majority of players were stuck on 5/13 untill the itemlvl buff came. And to those saying "yeah but thats 5 Bosses after wich the curve gets higher" - 5/13 is kind of the same as 3/10...the first 3 Bosses are just too easy, thats the only fault in NH tuning.

You missed the part where they actually nerfed Gorefiend along the line - those extra five seconds did help a lot. Or how they fucked with Council multiple times, since it was killed thanks to "creative use of interrupts" and removing boss mechanics. Or that some people did use Gorefiend portal from a friend to get three more free loot bosses. Or how HC Archimonde dropped some really good items which did eventually offer a significant power boost.

Compared to that, Nighthold has received almost no changes at all. The only boss that was actually nerfed was Auriel - and she's still way harder than the first three. Everything else is pretty much "nerf A while buffing B", which isn't really making things much easier. I assume they consider 7.2 to be this major nerf patch that will solve everything - and thus don't want to change anything before it. Still, the current situation is fairly unprecedented.

In every single expansion before Legion, there was a lot of room to grow thanks to raid drops. You had top guilds going in undergeared, while everyone else slowly increased their item level over time. With Titanforged items, it's not really happening. Split raids are even more profitable than they used to be, since every split run has a chance of dropping BiS items, no matter the difficulty. Legendaries aren't nerfing the content, since top guilds had their BiS on at least one character. Maybe Paragon traits were intended to do so, but again - top guilds had them all farmed up.

Either way, itemization vs boss difficulty is an issue, but there's no simple fix for that. (and certainly not those newest changes to legendaries) On the other hand, they could easily put some minor adjustment to bosses without waiting for 7.2. Or maybe make it so that half of specs aren't 20-30% behind on Krosus. That part is probably the most annoying. Yeah, we killed him with Fire Mages, Destro Warlocks and Shadow Priests. Would be way easier with another Demon Hunter, Rogue or Warrior. But nope, class balance is appearently perfect.

[Zan15]

How about you stop underperforming, and if you don't, you're not entitled to clearing mythic. That's as simple as it is. Let's get one thing straight, as far as hard video games go, mythic raiding in wow is nearly trivial. All the effort is in actually getting everyone to understand fights that are pumped full of arbitrary mechanics... it's akin to blind volume learning of some textbook. It's not hard, it just takes time because it's a lot of stuff to deal with. If you can't handle that, or if your players actually have mechanical problems of focusing on different things at the same time, I suggest Tetris.

I honestly can't believe what kind of loser what honestly ask for nerfs of some content because they are unable to beat it. Yes and I mean loser in every sense of the word. If you're not a complete loser, your instinct will be to power through it and overcome the challenge. Only a complete lowlife loser who wants everything handed to him will try to actually get stuff nerfed down to their level.

Logs and achievement links please.

[Osmeric]

It's going to be interesting to see what the final M NH completion stats are after the content has expired. I suspect they will, for the most part, be unprecedentedly low.

[akris15]

It's going to be interesting to see what the final M NH completion stats are after the content has expired. I suspect they will, for the most part, be unprecedentedly low.

From a US point of view extremely low and the numbers are not going to get better. There has been a mass dying of mid level mythic guilds that can't get past Star Auger the past few weeks and those 3-4/10 guilds are having a really hard time still trying to get their 5th kills. Even then there are many people who are doing mythic right now that are talking about after the tier is finished to not do Tomb of Sargeras. It will be interesting to see the final numbers and how many guilds are actually progressing in Tomb here in the incoming weeks.

[kamuimac]

From a US point of view extremely low and the numbers are not going to get better. There has been a mass dying of mid level mythic guilds that can't get past Star Auger the past few weeks and those 3-4/10 guilds are having a really hard time still trying to get their 5th kills. Even then there are many people who are doing mythic right now that are talking about after the tier is finished to not do Tomb of Sargeras. It will be interesting to see the final numbers and how many guilds are actually progressing in Tomb here in the incoming weeks.

in incoming weeks 7.2 will land bringing in huge nerf to intance and all those talks will be irrelavant. and then depending on how they will tune Tomb (wether it will be with all new traits or without ) well see another drop of at X/Y boss because it always happens.

[Gorsameth]

in incoming weeks 7.2 will land bringing in huge nerf to intance and all those talks will be irrelavant. and then depending on how they will tune Tomb (wether it will be with all new traits or without ) well see another drop of at X/Y boss because it always happens.

A wall existing is not a problem.
The ways to get over or through that wall are what this thread is about.

Also, the sooner in an instance that wall is, the harder it is to collect gear to power through.

[ping-pong]

That shouldnt be an issue if there were no legendary items where one is 10% or more dps increase over another, where some class can do 900k dps while other 600k dps on same fight with players that have equal skill and gear.
Mythic raiding shouldnt be about fat 100-200 M+ dungeons so you can get 54 points into weapon, its should be about skill and knowing how to play your class. But it is not, when you have DPS check fight like Krosus each % counts and makes the difference between kill or wipe.

Krosus can, and has been, cleared even with ppl without 54 traits, without BIS legendaries. Mythic means be prepared, DPS check means be skilled with your class, which is what you should work on.
If you don't have 54 traits by now, you must have decided fairly recently to go into mythic. Some of my very causal friends whos highest achievement thus far is normal raid have 54 traits.
You gotta prepare your char for the mythic raiding. That's how it is, that's how it's always been, that's how it should be.
Skillwise, if you are complaining about Krosus at this time, you are not playing your class optimally. Work on your rotation and movement. One thing is knowing how to play your class, the other is doing it.

[kamuimac]

A wall existing is not a problem.
The ways to get over or through that wall are what this thread is about.

Also, the sooner in an instance that wall is, the harder it is to collect gear to power through.

well then the way to get over it is coming soon(tm) - just wait you will have anyway like 3 + months till Tomb will open after 7.2 lands plenty of time to progress.

[KaPe]

You gotta prepare your char for the mythic raiding. That's how it is, that's how it's always been, that's how it should be.
Skillwise, if you are complaining about Krosus at this time, you are not playing your class optimally. Work on your rotation and movement. One thing is knowing how to play your class, the other is doing it.

You're ignoring the fact that this isn't how "it's always been". This expansion demands far more time to prepare for mythic raiding. You must invest a lot of extra time outside of raids to reach optimal power level for your character - and even then, you're dependant on luck. Previously, you pretty much only did some dailies for few weeks and then it was down to consumables. This isn't a subjective opinion - you objectively have to spend more hours in game to reach the same point you had in previous expansion.

There's also the problem that you're pretty much limited to a single spec unless you with the legendary lottery and grind a lot. If a boss is really bad for Fire, you cannot respec Frost without losing a decent amount of performance. You cannot really bring alts unless - again - they got lucky. Class balance is pretty messed up right now - overall charts might not look bad, but some bosses are absurdly skewed toward certain specs. Krosus is the perfect example, where half of caster specs have to be carried. It's even worse for tanks - better hope you have Druid to carry you through certain mechanics, otherwise it will be much harder. But nope, Blizzard's feedback was pretty much "we went a bit too far with magic damage, but it will be better in next tier! For now, bow to your furry overlords!"