So how come Draenor isn't assisting us?

[Friendlyimmolation]

He was a Hot Head right at the beginning of WC3 which is basically at the end of Lords of Clans, where Thrall had to save Grom and Orcs from human prisons (again). And there was no Mannoroth influence.

His aggression continued on Kalimdor where he and his goons ravaged innocent human village, again, still no Mannoroth influence. Because he has just like current Orcs completely lifted the demonic influence in Lords of the Clans.

And if you made some fun, and you as Thrall made a base too close of Grom's base, he would declare you as enemy and attack you in-game.


Grom is a clear aggressor/warmoner, with or without demon blood. His personality is extremely similar as Garrosh. The demon-blood just bolstered at the maximum.

Someone needs to play warcraft 3 again. Grom getting captured instead of going ballistic and killing every human he ran into =/= hothead.

His aggression continued on Kalimdor where he and his goons ravaged innocent human village, again, still no Mannoroth influence. Because he has just like current Orcs completely lifted the demonic influence in Lords of the Clans.

Again you need to bother to actually play the sources you are trying to use for your arugment. he flat out tells Thrall it feels like the demons are near again, and they were. Mannaroth was on Kalimdor.

Tell me exactly how killing the shaman was needed for Garrosh to make sure Grom invade Azeroth?

My answer is it doesn't, if Garrosh have let the vision continue, then Grom would have seen his heroic end and how Thrall would lead the Horde succesfully after that. This would make look the demon-blood less tragic as it seems.

Because if Grom saw Thrall bring the orcs out of Lethargy and form the Horde and his exploits, there is no way in hell he would fight him. Garrosh needed him to think that the situation was completely without hope. Way to attempt to completely change the situation to fit your argument though.

That's literally the same as the previous lie, like I said, Garrosh said 1 lie, and that can be argued for Grom's own good sake.

2. Garrosh has never spoke a single words about Thrall, nor would it matter, because AU Grom wouldn't even know Thrall. So how is this a lie?

3. Garrosh never said that the Draenei's were dangerous. He said they would eventually become a trouble (which is true, because they would side with the MU Draenei).

"Once they are convinced that another world is for the taking, they will only want a greater share of the spoils. You won't have to give up Nagrand," Garrosh said. "There is a place called Ironforge—the Blackrocks will sacrifice much to claim it. The Shattered Hand? Give them the land near a place called Sen'jin Village. I will even help them take it." And I will enjoy it.

Garrosh kept his glee hidden. His father was seriously considering his words. Already Grommash was contemplating ways to shepherd a united orc people, a Horde. I suppose I should thank you, Kairoz, Garrosh thought. "And if that is not enough for the moment," he added, "tell them about the marvels we'll plunder from the draenei."

"You said they were not the threat Gul'dan claims," Grommash said.

"They aren't, but they will stand in the way eventually. Better to deal with them sooner than later. You will see," Garrosh said.

Grommash didn't look convinced. "Perhaps." He fell silent as they finally topped the last rise. The Stones of Prophecy were only a short distance away.

If you actually paid attention at the beginning of the short-story, you hear Garrosh say to Kairoz something about: "I will never let my people become slaves to anyone again, not to demons not to dragons". And obviously, kills Kairoz.

So short answer? Yes, Garrosh wanted to help his people, Father from corruption, and destroy Azeroth.

you are still acting as if Garrosh had a altruistic motive, His goal was none other than revenge.

Might be a sensitive topic for you, maybe your dad wasn't a good dad...? Too bad, but not really my concern...

one of the weakest attempts I've seen. And I'm not sure how in the hell you would even get this other than a weak attack because you are becoming agitated that I won't accept your strange altered narrative where Garrosh is a saint.

I'm pretty sure any healthy dad would never kill his son any circumstance, especially not for such a tiny issue. The worst case is classic beating up, in hope he would learn his lesson. But killing? That's ridiculous. That would never happen.

Trying to make the problem smaller then it actually was? Check.

Showing a severe lack of knowledge that people will kill others regardless if they are related for severe crimes? check.

[Grimfrost]

Didn't blizzard say that our pals on draenor were too busy rebuilding everything?

[Deleted]

Someone needs to play warcraft 3 again. Grom getting captured instead of going ballistic and killing every human he ran into =/= hothead.

You don't get captured by humans randomly. So obviously, Grom and Warsong crossed path with the Humans but he didn't retreat, he fought the humans and got overpowered/outnumbered. Thrall had to save him; and as extra: At the ending of the recent Chronicle 2 confirms that Grom would never let the humans in peace.

Again you need to bother to actually play the sources you are trying to use for your arugment. he flat out tells Thrall it feels like the demons are near again, and they were. Mannaroth was on Kalimdor.

That wasn't really the reason, Grom didn't need Mannoroth's presence to slay the Draeneis on AU/MU Draenei, nor all the humans after second war, when Orcs like Orgrim and Saurfang were getting their sense back. Also not speaking about the Frostwolves in AU.

Because if Grom saw Thrall bring the orcs out of Lethargy and form the Horde and his exploits, there is no way in hell he would fight him. Garrosh needed him to think that the situation was completely without hope. Way to attempt to completely change the situation to fit your argument though.

Grom's motivation to invade Azeroth wasn't because Garrosh altered the vision. It was because greed and conquest. If the full vision was shown, Thrall's Horde would still very likely be annihilated, just like AU Frost Wolves. Because Grom and the other clans wanted to unite, expand and fight a common foe, if Thrall interfered he would treated same as the other clans that denied the Iron Horde.

Besides that Garrosh clearly told Grom his target: Stormwind, Iron Forge and Echo Island and that was the only Horde city which he wanted to conquor for his personal revenge. So again, Thrall in vision isn't relevant to AU Garrosh/Grom's warmonger motivation. Orgrimmar wasn't marked and the invasion motivation was greed and expansion only.

"Once they are convinced that another world is for the taking, they will only want a greater share of the spoils. You won't have to give up Nagrand," Garrosh said. "There is a place called Ironforge—the Blackrocks will sacrifice much to claim it. The Shattered Hand? Give them the land near a place called Sen'jin Village. I will even help them take it." And I will enjoy it.

Garrosh kept his glee hidden. His father was seriously considering his words. Already Grommash was contemplating ways to shepherd a united orc people, a Horde. I suppose I should thank you, Kairoz, Garrosh thought. "And if that is not enough for the moment," he added, "tell them about the marvels we'll plunder from the draenei."

"You said they were not the threat Gul'dan claims," Grommash said.

"They aren't, but they will stand in the way eventually. Better to deal with them sooner than later. You will see," Garrosh said.

Grommash didn't look convinced. "Perhaps." He fell silent as they finally topped the last rise. The Stones of Prophecy were only a short distance away.

Exactly as I said before: Garrosh never said Draeneis were dangerous, just a trouble they had to deal with at one point, so better kill them now before they get ready to fight back.

you are still acting as if Garrosh had a altruistic motive, His goal was none other than revenge.

It is altruistic motive, he sincerely believes that the Orcs deserves to rule worlds and his father should never drink demon-blood, this was his biggest issues in his life as Orc leader. And therefore this is all what he fought for on AU-Draenor, and eventually convienced his AU father to work together with other clans and fight a common enemy, which is people of Azeroth. Is there some selfish revenge involved? Sure, but that's fully justifacted, Orcs are natural warmongers, and AU Grom is genetically his dad. And so is the Warsong Clan his AU clan he is actually to lead at one point.

one of the weakest attempts I've seen. And I'm not sure how in the hell you would even get this other than a weak attack because you are becoming agitated that I won't accept your strange altered narrative where Garrosh is a saint.



Trying to make the problem smaller then it actually was? Check.

Showing a severe lack of knowledge that people will kill others regardless if they are related for severe crimes? check.

A normal father usually never kills his son, it's just bizar. I know that not everyone has good relationship with their father. But most proud fathers value their sons life above everything, in any circumstance. It's kinda sad if that's not for you the case... might be sensitive topic tho. But imo, everyone should be able to talk about it.

A son will be protected at all cost by his father, because to a father, the son is his new future and new life. Killing his son is killing his own future. Imo big nonsense with Grom killing Garrosh out of mere revenge.

[Zulkhan]

Tell me exactly how killing the shaman was needed for Garrosh to make sure Grom invade Azeroth?

Really? If murdering (because that's what Garrosh did, he murdered a person his father respected by suffocating him) the shaman wasn't needed, then why Garrosh did it? The shaman initially saw everything Grom himself saw and his reaction was the same, he was horrified by all that shit and thought such events had to be prevented at all costs. Garrosh was pleased and even felt sympathy for the old shaman as he seemed to "understand".

However, unlike Grom, the shaman also saw the rest of the story, how the orcs endured and eventually regained their freedom, away from demon's enslavement and human's imprisonment. By seeing how the Horde would have finally gained new strength and independence, his opinion changed utterly and accepted things had to go in a certain way. But Garrosh didn't want any of that because he disliked Thrall's New Horde as much as the demon-corrupted Old Horde. And to not let the shaman interfere with his plans by twisting Grom on his side, Garrosh murdered the old orc first and then cut the vision off to be sure his father's knowledge was stopping at the point where the orcs were seemingly doomed forever. Grom never saw himself killing Mannoroth and freeing the orcish race, he only saw himself as a source of damnation and nothing else. This pushed a desire for redemption that served as main driving force for all his actions in WoD.

Garrosh purposely manipulated Grom's understanding and knowledge of history to be sure Grom was going to act as he desired. Tell me where's the difference with what Kil'jaeden did to the orcs in MU. Garrosh prevented them to become servants of the demons, just to turn them in his own tool of destruction to exact revenge on a planet they knew jackshit about. That's literally the same shit Sargeras planned when he used the Old Horde in the main universe.

My answer is it doesn't, if Garrosh have let the vision continue, then Grom would have seen his heroic end and how Thrall would lead the Horde succesfully after that. This would make look the demon-blood less tragic as it seems.

Are you aware this would have also prevented Grom from doing pretty much everything of what he did? If Garrosh would have been honest rather than a deceiving shit Grom would have exclusively focused on fighting the Legion rather than invading Azeroth, in fact he would have considered them valuable allies from the very start. Garrosh's half-assed version of the tale instead made everyone look like a threat and an enemy for the orcs and the full-out conquest of everything the only way to go. And the reason of this is because Garrosh had no interest in properly opposing the Burning Legion if that meant not getting his deeply desired vengeance on Azeroth's people.

Garrosh was and remained a selfish dick, until his last breath.

2. Garrosh has never spoke a single words about Thrall, nor would it matter, because AU Grom wouldn't even know Thrall. So how is this a lie?

Except AU Grom was learning everything about Thrall. Garrosh quickly cut the vision off before he could learn more.

3. Garrosh never said that the Draenei's were dangerous. He said they would eventually become a trouble (which is true, because they would side with the MU Draenei).

Yeah and why that should have been "trouble" to begin with? Oh right, because Garrosh did his best to depict Azeroth as an hellhole spawning demonic people that wanted nothing but enslave the orcs.

If you actually paid attention at the beginning of the short-story, you hear Garrosh say to Kairoz something about: "I will never let my people become slaves to anyone again, not to demons not to dragons". And obviously, kills Kairoz.

Yep, and then he goes his way to turn them into his own tool of mass destruction. Rather than save the orcs from slavery he took the place of those very demonic masters. Unlike the demons he couldn't control the orcs directly, so he resorted to his powerful hindsight and time-fucking tools, adding appealing arguments, deliberate lies and convenient misinformation.

I'm pretty sure any healthy dad would never kill his son any circumstance, especially not for such a tiny issue.

Tiny? Seriously? LOL

Listen, the only case in which Grom wouldn't outright kill Garrosh would be if he grows sentimental enough to see himself as indirect cause of Garrosh growing into a shithead, because he couldn't be with his son doing all the fatherly stuff ecc. but apart that, Grom wouldn't lack the reasons at all to behead Garrosh. His son led the whole of their race on a pointless and wasteful war path for literally shit and giggles. The amount of orcs died at the hands of Horde and Alliance pale compared to any actually killed by the Legion.

[Combatbutler]

Listen, the only case in which Grom wouldn't outright kill Garrosh would be if he grows sentimental enough to see himself as indirect cause of Garrosh growing into a shithead, because he couldn't be with his son doing all the fatherly stuff ecc. but apart that, Grom wouldn't lack the reasons at all to behead Garrosh. His son led the whole of their race on a pointless and wasteful war path for literally shit and giggles. The amount of orcs died at the hands of Horde and Alliance pale compared to any actually killed by the Legion.

But the most important part here is the following, Garrosh is not his son, this Grom never had one. If he ever gets a son it won't be Garrosh. Grom might feel a bit sentimental, but ultimately has no real ties to MU Garry.

[Deleted]

Really? If murdering (because that's what Garrosh did, he murdered a person his father respected by suffocating him) the shaman wasn't needed, then why Garrosh did it? The shaman initially saw everything Grom himself saw and his reaction was the same, he was horrified by all that shit and thought such events had to be prevented at all costs. Garrosh was pleased and even felt sympathy for the old shaman as he seemed to "understand".

I rather want you to reply to my newest posts instead of me retyping the same response again.

Just in short about "killing theshaman being a reason to invade Azeroth" for Grom. Which is of course bullshit. Garrosh could show how the Horde turned out, but still convince Grom to unite with all clans and invade Azeroth to expand their people.

Killing shaman just secured that Grom would never drink the demon-blood. And that's most important thing, because if something that had bothered Garrosh majority of his life time is that Grom was the first one that drank the demon blood. And by killing the shaman, only showing the most horrific action of Grom drinking demon-blood was his bet to prevent his AU father drinking the same Demon Blood.

Thrall's Horde is irrelevant, Grom would not hesistate to obliterate it, just like he did with Frost Wolves and Shadowmoon if necessariy.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I rather want you to reply to my newest posts instead of me retyping the same response again.

Just in short about "killing theshaman being a reason to invade Azeroth" for Grom. Which is of course bullshit. Garrosh could show how the Horde turned out, but still convince Grom to unite with all clans and invade Azeroth to expand their people.

Killing shaman just secured that Grom would never drink the demon-blood. And that's most important thing, because if something that had bothered Garrosh majority of his life time is that Grom was the first one that drank the demon blood. And by killing the shaman, only showing the most horrific action reaction of Grom drinking demon-blood was his bet.

Thrall's Horde is irrelevant, Grom would not hesistate to obliterate it, just like he did with Frost Wolves and Shadowmoon if necessariy.

The amount of "alternative facts" here is great. You honestly think Garrosh Was a great guy and that he wasn't making the iron Horde for the express purpose of killing the Horde and Alliance.

Thrall's Horde is irrelevant, Grom would not hesistate to obliterate it, just like he did with Frost Wolves and Shadowmoon if necessariy.

Because once again, Garrosh made sure to paint them and anyone who didn't go along with them as foes who would lead to their downfall as a race. Just a "tiny issue"

[Deleted]

And about this; because I haven't responded to it:

Yep, and then he goes his way to turn them into his own tool of mass destruction. Rather than save the orcs from slavery he took the place of those very demonic masters. Unlike the demons he couldn't control the orcs directly, so he resorted to his powerful hindsight and time-fucking tools, adding appealing arguments, deliberate lies and convenient misinformation.

Difference is, Garrosh made Orcs do it naturally, he doesn't pull the strings. In fact, he was one of the first to die in Draenor for the Iron Horde. No fear and no regrets.

To be honest, it took barely any effort for Garrosh to "consult" Grom. He didn't even had to play the "I'm your son" card. He won a Mak'Rogahn, which was more than enough to earn his respect. And with that respect and his knowledge, he manage to bring Grom as Warchief, and easily convienced Grom to invade new planet(s).

It was no trick or lies involved, there really is a rich planet called Azeroth, and the Orcs attempted to conquor it without Demon or Dragon influence. Just Garrosh, another Orc from time and space. Someone who could have fit in the Iron Horde hierarchy seemlessly.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Difference is, Garrosh made Orcs do it naturally, he doesn't pull the strings. In fact, he was one of the first to die in Draenor for the Iron Horde. No fear and no regrets.

"Doesnt pull the strings"

Aside from showing visions to grom and convincing him that they needed to invade Azeroth.

To be honest, it took barely any effort for Garrosh to "consult" Grom. He didn't even had to play the "I'm your son" card. He won a Mak'Rogahn, which was more than enough to earn his respect. And with that respect and his knowledge, he manage to bring Grom as Warchief, and easily convienced Grom to invade new planet(s).

And you know, show him a vision of the future.

t was no trick or lies involved, there really is a rich planet called Azeroth, and the Orcs attempted to conquor it without Demon or Dragon influence. Just Garrosh, another Orc from time and space. Someone who could have fit in the Iron Horde hierarchy seemlessly.

aside from the fact that he tricked Grom into thinking the orcs were never freed, and that Azeroth was the enemy.

This is really incredible to read.

[Deleted]

The amount of "alternative facts" here is great. You honestly think Garrosh Was a great guy and that he wasn't making the iron Horde for the express purpose of killing the Horde and Alliance.

Of course, that played also a role, no one denies that. But having an Orcish world and his father never drinking demon-blood was Garrosh most beloved dream. And was as important as the revenge, if not, even more important. Because else he could let Gul'dan do his work...

Garrosh betted on Orcish world on Azeroth, with his father as Warchief, slave of no one. Not of humans, not of dragons, not of demons.

Vol'jin and Darkspear being victims of Kargath and Shattered Hand, Siege of Stormwind/Iron Forge was only revealed revenge of Garrosh in the short-story. There wasn't a word about sieging Orgrimmar.

I suspect Garrosh long term plan would be wiping out humans in eastern kingdom and fuse with Orgrimmar and kill Vol'jin/Darkspears.

Because once again, Garrosh made sure to paint them and anyone who didn't go along with them as foes who would lead to their downfall as a race. Just a "tiny issue"

And therefore, it shows killing the shaman had nothing to do with killing Thrall/Orgrimmar. But just to make sure his father doesn't sees his glorious death, just the Fel Horde being demonic slaves.

I'm literally just repeating myself, and you trying to go off-topic...

- - - Updated - - -

Aside from showing visions to grom and convincing him that they needed to invade Azeroth.

It wasn't "needed to invade".

It was: "Why don't you invade something much bigger? *kuch* Azeroth *kuch*"

[Aucald]

All I needed to know from wondering if Garrosh had fallen, and how deeply into the depths that fall had been, was revealed when I read Hellscream and specifically the following passage:

"I can smell your lies before you speak, outsider." The shaman was actually hissing with fury . He took slow, deliberate steps forward, staring directly into Garrosh's face, veins standing out against his wrinkled skin. "Fate itself retches. You intend to topple everything about this world."

An oppressive presence seemed to weigh down on Garrosh's mind. The spirits really did loathe him. If you knew what I gladly did to your brethren in Durotar, you would strike me down on the spot.

In his need for vengeance, in his overbearing pride, Garrosh turned his back on *everything* his people had once cherished and protected. All the justifications for the things he did or didn't do fall flat in the face of that, at least for me. He reveals himself as a traitor to the spirit of the Horde in the same way as Gul'dan did when he sold the soul of the Orcs to the Legion.

[Kellorion]

I'm honestly more bothered by our followers. Where the hell is Blook? I miss Blook.

I think they're supposed to be busy rebuilding Draenor, and honestly we're coping without them. They said they'd be there if we needed them, and I don't know about you but I feel like I've been coping just fine.

Same, why arent our followers anywhere to be found in Legion?

[Sithalos]

I never want to hear from any WoD character ever again.

AU Gul'dan was enough.

[Dremall]

Same, why arent our followers anywhere to be found in Legion?

There are some who show up in various class halls, but not too many. Most of them are languishing in their prison, err garrison, or Draenor.

[Volitar]

because wow expansions.

[MonsieuRoberts]

Asplosions.

[purebalance]

After coming back to Azeroth their timeline was fast forwarded and they all died, because this time(see what I did there?) there were no Outland, everyone there exploded and died.

We were going back and forth canonically so no.

[Toijin]

They're in the same place as Wrathion












...pile of non-existence forgotten about characters

[Zulkhan]

But the most important part here is the following, Garrosh is not his son, this Grom never had one. If he ever gets a son it won't be Garrosh. Grom might feel a bit sentimental, but ultimately has no real ties to MU Garry.

Well I meant it in another way, more like Grom seeing his alternate self indirectly responsible. Since he's aware that his "alternate self" it's still a pretty much identical version of himself, he could still relate to a degree. After all is because he could relate to our Grom's fuck ups that he got such firm conviction in leading the Iron Horde to a "better" future.

About the rest, this is my final shot. If this doesn't hit the target than there's no point going on with this.

I rather want you to reply to my newest posts instead of me retyping the same response again.

I would have loved to but you'll notice how your response fell on the same exact minute of mine. I can't predict the future.

Still, I tried to make my response complete and wrap-up everything I could, so you shouldn't have any issue in finding specific and new arguments to address.

Just in short about "killing theshaman being a reason to invade Azeroth" for Grom. Which is of course bullshit. Garrosh could show how the Horde turned out, but still convince Grom to unite with all clans and invade Azeroth to expand their people.

And yet your baseless assumption clashes with Garrosh's own actions. He went from feeling sympathy to murder the guy the moment he saw the stuff Grom wasn't supposed to see.

Actions speak louder than assumptions and Garrosh revealed his fears the moment he decided to commit murder on a completely innocent orc, one Grom personally knew and respected moreover (and of course lied about the reason of the poor bastard's death, because that's what people that have nothing to hide do, they lie).

Killing shaman just secured that Grom would never drink the demon-blood. And that's most important thing, because if something that had bothered Garrosh majority of his life time is that Grom was the first one that drank the demon blood. And by killing the shaman, only showing the most horrific action of Grom drinking demon-blood was his bet to prevent his AU father drinking the same Demon Blood.

Do you believe that was the issue? That's why the shaman died? Let me show you the actual issue:

The shaman clutched his chest, fingers digging into the skin just above his heart as he writhed and muttered. The gash on his palm, where he had cut himself on the shard, left red streaks across his robe.

"Not meant to be. Must not happen. Not meant to be. Must not happen." His breaths came shallow and quick. He opened his eyes. "Still hope. Redemption. Redemption."

"Yes," Garrosh said softly. "Redemption. That is why I'm here." He grasped one of the old orc's arms and felt the racing, fluttering heartbeat. Was he dying? Possibly. "I will give our people redemption."

Zhanak didn't seem to hear. "Hellscream has the heart. The heart to change it all."

"Yes," Garrosh agreed.

"The heart to resist. To fight. To unite all orcs. To lead."

Garrosh sat cross-legged and propped up the shaman's head on his lap. "Yes. All of those things and more." He gently patted the elder on the shoulder. At least the old fool understands now.

"Peace… we might see peace…"

Garrosh's hand went still.

(...)

Zhanak's eyes focused again on Garrosh's face. "You've seen. You know. A united people. Protecting one another. Glorious. Hellscream could lead his people there. He has the heart. Glorious…"

"That is the Horde, elder," Garrosh said.

"Hellscream can bear it. He can overcome it. The corruption will not be the end." Tears streamed down Zhanak's face. His voice was laced with joy and hope. "One world in ruins, but the other stronger than ever. Hellscream's sacrifice saves us all. You've seen it…"

The vision took him again and he began to tremble anew.

Garrosh glanced around. The two guards were pacing at the edge of the mist, clearly debating whether to interrupt the vision. Nobody else was in sight. If this shaman had caretakers or apprentices, they were not nearby.

"I have seen it, elder" Garrosh said. He reached down, pinching the old shaman's nostrils shut with one hand and pressing the other firmly across his lips. "And I will not see it again."

Muffled grunts escaped around Garrosh's fingers, yet the shaman could bring no air into his lungs. Zhanak's hands clawed at Garrosh.

"The ancestors will welcome you home," Garrosh murmured, staring straight ahead.

He waited for the muffled grunts and the squirming and the heartbeat to go quiet. They did. Still he kept his hands in place for a thirty count.

Then he gently laid the shaman down. "The ancestors will welcome you home," Garrosh said again, meaning it. The elder had commanded respect even from Grommash Hellscream. It was a shame he needed to die.

The bolded parts are all you need. Garrosh outright says that he has no intention to see Thrall's New Horde again. After that he goes and murder the shaman.

Did Garrosh wanted to prevent Grom from drinking the blood? Sure, and he did that. Did he kill the shaman for that reason? Nope. He goes and suffocate the old orc for a completely different reason. And he, from Garrosh's own words, a figure that "commanded respect even from Grommash Hellscream", had to die for that selfish reason of his.

Thrall's Horde is irrelevant, Grom would not hesistate to obliterate it, just like he did with Frost Wolves and Shadowmoon if necessariy.

The Frostwolves and Shadowmoon were victims of Grom's desperation and willingness to "make things right", in the very fucked up way Garrosh proposed. Grommash had literally no reasons to turn on Thrall's Horde besides the ones given by Garrosh:

But now you know what you face. There are enemies waiting to enslave us. Gul'dan's masters. Those on this other world. Who else but you could rise to such a challenge? Who else but you could be a father to all clans?"

Because Garrosh never lied ever. Nope.

Difference is, Garrosh made Orcs do it naturally, he doesn't pull the strings. In fact, he was one of the first to die in Draenor for the Iron Horde. No fear and no regrets.

Naturally? Again, how that's different from what Gul'dan did in the main universe? Because Gul'dan too let the Orcs act "naturally" but only after he sold the right amount of lies. Just like Garrosh. Where Gul'dan was supported by his demon masters, Garrosh had Kairoz's time-meddling tool to use at his advantage.

And Garrosh being one of the first to die means little. He had no other goals in life left. His work was done. The Iron Horde would have kept doing its thing until either Azeroth was brought to ruin or the Iron Horde destroyed itself. Whatever the case, he would have willingly led thousands of orcs to die for a good lot of nothing, a powerful army wasting most of its potential on Azeroth instead of helping fighting the Burning Legion. Compared to that Wrathion's vision was admittedly better. Yeah, the orcs would have been tools of some big "master" (Wrathion/Kairoz) but at least they would have fought and died for something that mattered. In this way they became tools of someone else nonetheless but died for nothing on top of that.

To be honest, it took barely any effort for Garrosh to "consult" Grom. He didn't even had to play the "I'm your son" card. He won a Mak'Rogahn, which was more than enough to earn his respect. And with that respect and his knowledge, he manage to bring Grom as Warchief, and easily convienced Grom to invade new planet(s).

None of that shit was barely sufficient to make Grom fully trust Garrosh. He was willing to hear, since Garrosh was good enough at deceiving by pushing the right arguments, but remained wary until the end. If Garrosh had it his way is only because of the hourglass's fragment, of the hindsight offered by such tool and the way he conveniently manipulated it at his own advantage. That's the real, actual straw that put Grom on the war path:

Finally, Grommash stood. "Give me that," he said, extending his hand. The stranger handed over Gorehowl. "Why did you interfere?"

The stranger pointed past the edge of the stones, toward the tree where the shaman was waiting. "The vision killed the elder, Hellscream," he said. "I never imagined it could be so dangerous. I feared it would kill you too."

"His heart could not bear to see what I saw." Grommash seized the stranger by the throat and hurled him backward against one of the stones. An instant later, Grommash placed Gorehowl against his neck. "What happened next?"

"What?" the stranger asked.

"I saw slavery and death. That cannot be how it ended." The edge of Gorehowl pressed deep, just shy of breaking skin. "What happened to me? What happened to my clan?"

"You fought to the end, Hellscream. You and others." That sounded like an admission the stranger didn't want to make. "But it was too late. Our hearts had been ripped out. Do you see now? The price for Gul'dan's power is—"

"Everything," Grommash interrupted. His voice was hoarse. Slowly he pulled Gorehowl away. "It will cost us everything."

"Yes. But you saw something else, Hellscream."

Grommash's eyes were haunted. "What?"

"You saw the might of unity," the stranger said quietly. "All orcs marching under one banner. Imagine that with no masters. No corruption. Imagine it. A Horde with Warsong leadership. What limits would there be? What world could stand against us?"

Grommash turned away. His mind still reeled. "Weakness. I thought myself strong, and that would have led me to ruin." Oh, Golka. I vow I will have your strength. If I fall, I will fall in battle... I will spill oceans of blood to avoid the fate the stranger has shown me. Even my own. I swear it.

(...)

"Who else but you could rise to such a challenge? Who else but you could be a father to all clans?"

Nobody. Nobody else. None but he could know the sheer horror of their fate. None but he would do anything to avoid it.

"This other world conquered us. They are strong. We must be stronger." Grommash felt his soul roar. I will be stronger.

Garrosh lied multiple times and Grom's desperation and iron willingness to fight and be stronger than "the other world" (Azeroth) was born entirely from those lies. Seriously, there's no denying. Garrosh has been a deceiver and a liar the whole time. And we know why he did all that.

It was no trick or lies involved, there really is a rich planet called Azeroth, and the Orcs attempted to conquor it without Demon or Dragon influence. Just Garrosh, another Orc from time and space. Someone who could have fit in the Iron Horde hierarchy seemlessly.

This very statement is a whole lie. Garrosh objectively lied and committed murder to protect those lies. Of all planets in the universe he led the Iron Horde on, guess what, Azeroth. How convenient. It totally didn't have to do with him having some big revenge to exact on that place and all its people. Nope. After all he doesn't totally say in the story that he would totally enjoy helping the Iron Horde doing it. It was all about altruism, fatherly love and I don't know, whatever.

Forgive the sarcasm, but this is seriously growing demanding to read. I mean, I get it, you like Garrosh, fine. I respect that. But there's no point in inventing narratives for characters that cover precise roles in the lore.

Arguing Garrosh was doing all this shit for some altruistic motives is as much pretentious as saying that Arthas went to Northrend for his people's sake. None of them did what they did for anyone's else sake. They did for the sake of their own hatred and thrist for revenge. Garrosh is, in fact, pretty much the orcish version of Arthas. They literally share the same flaws, one by one.

Hell, in War Crimes it's Garrosh himself talking about Arthas and how the human prince "turned his back on the Light" (which he did for revenge's sake, as we all know) and what Garrosh ultimately concludes? That he's probably more similar to Arthas than Anduin'll ever be. Yeah, he says it himself.

[Tojara]

I understand people hate Grom's character to a degree, but the backstory leading up to why they invaded is pretty clear as day to me, I mean, just read the fucking thing. He didn't see the Draenei as a threat initially, and Garrosh carefully manipulated visions to push Grom into what he wanted done. He made both the Draenei and Azeroth seem like a threat, so they ended up being proactive, instead of reactive. The vision he saw was shameful, showed weakness and slavery. You might not like the motivations, or the proactive approach, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand why such a character ended up doing what he ended up doing.

The Orcs on Draenor really aren't bad guys. I mean some of them were, but ultimately history repeated itself but in a different fashion. Instead of Kil'Jaeden being the guiding hand, Garrosh was the guiding hand this time. I mean it's clear as fucking day and the whole point of WoD.

It's not directly stated, but the final burden of proof took place in the cinematic where he ended up killing Mannoroth. Even if he still had reservations about Garrosh's plan, or his prophecies, what took place on the Throne of Kil'jaeden certainly put all the Orc clans into a position of throwing all their chips into Garrosh's direction, and why wouldn't they? He just told you that Gul'dan would offer you demon blood and it would enslave you, to which Gul'dan confirmed, and shortly after a giant Demon shows up clearly not happy with such a decision.

I don't get how Garrosh didn't pull strings. That's the whole point of WoD and the short story. He manipulated everything from the top to the bottom.

Again, the Orcs of Draenor were mostly misguided. Honestly the story leading up to WoD was pretty well explained and I don't really take issue with any of it. There were clear motivations behind every faction, and it made sense why they wanted to kill/enslave the Draenei and the Frostwolves (it's not a stretch that Garrosh manipulated them into attacking the Frostwolves, given his disdain for Thrall). That doesn't excuse the terrible writing in the middle and end of the expansion, but it's pretty clearly explained prior.

Honestly I have no idea why Draenor isn't assisting. It's probably more along the lines that there are a lot of moving parts and characters and they don't want to fit anymore in. Logically it would make sense that the forces of Draenor would want to assist us in our Demon filled crises, much like we eventually assisted them. Why we won't see them is probably anybodies guess. Again, my guess is they want people to forget about WoD, or they don't want to add more characters.