Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, calls for fresh independence referendum

[Deleted]

It is quite hilarious.

When you start off a post like that you sound like a Mail reader and people's eyes glaze over.

You aren't going to persuade any one by scoffing at them. It would just be easier to write "f*** off Sturgeon", and you would probably alienate fewer people who didn't have suffer your pomposity and lack of intellect.

[Deleted]

It is quite hilarious. The SNP are dropping increasing hints that they would not even pursue EU membership after independence.

"We are calling an independence referendum because the people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and are being dragged out of it against their will"

"We have decided after independence we won't join the EU anyway"

So?
Their point about effectively being ruled by England remains a problem.

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Thats not in contradiction at all. Which of those things will British people not be able to do in the UK is no longer in the single market?

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down
What part of that is not the free movement of people?
I mean at best he is saying, that British people will still be able to have free movement, but the UK will simultaneously be able to keep the Poles out?

[Rockyreg]

So?
Their point about effectively being ruled by England remains a problem.

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British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down
What part of that is not the free movement of people?
I mean at best he is saying, that British people will still be able to have free movement, but the UK will simultaneously be able to keep the Poles out?

So do EU countries not let anybody from non-EU countries live, travel, study, buy homes and settle down? Maybe its just the UK that has non-EU citizens do this.

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When you start off a post like that you sound like a Mail reader and people's eyes glaze over.

You aren't going to persuade any one by scoffing at them. It would just be easier to write "f*** off Sturgeon", and you would probably alienate fewer people who didn't have suffer your pomposity and lack of intellect.

So basically what you are saying is 'you have a point'

[Mayhem]

Thats not in contradiction at all. Which of those things will British people not be able to do in the UK is no longer in the single market?

If you have to wait until you have access like you used to, that is not still being able to have access like you´re used to. Also i don´t understand your question, i have a feeling there are some words missing.

[Rockyreg]

If you have to wait until you have access like you used to, that is not still being able to have access like you´re used to. Also i don´t understand your question, i have a feeling there are some words missing.

Just replace 'in the' with 'if the'.

Well then we will have to wait, don't forget this is just Boris Johnson's opinion not fact. The argument here is that somebody said that brexiteers said we would remain in the single market, I asked for evidence and that statement from Boris was provided which at no point does he say we are staying in the single market.

[Pua]

They provided statistics on how much Scotland spends compared to how much it raises in tax. You can argue that this would change through an independent Scotland's changes to policy, but the stats show that on day 1 of independence you would have a deficit of roughly £15 billion. These figures are still obtainable regardless of whether Scotland is still in the UK.

Or are you trying to say the actual figures reported are falsified?

1. Because Scotland, following a vote for independence, would restructure its economy prior to independence, you can't say that Scotland would have a deficit. An additional point to note, just quickly, is that the UK government has already stated Scotland would take on none of the UK's £1.6 trillion worth of debt. There are two reasons for this; to ease creditor fears about the newly independent state, and because Scotland already pays its fair share of UK debt on an annual basis.

2. The figures aren't obtainable, because all GERS does is allocate Scotland's share of revenue (typically by population, but nobody really knows the methodology); and, don't forget, it was designed to do so for political intent.

3. "Falsified" is a strong term, but they will be presented with strong bias because it's in the UK government's interests to present them as such.

Like I've said, and it must be sensible because nobody contests it, the idea that a Conservative government would be so determined to keep an economically AND (more importantly) politically dead country around its neck, is utterly laughable.

The SNP proposed to cut corporation tax in the last referendum.

So? That was the SNP's policy at the time, not necessarily the Scottish government. The wonderful thing about independence is that Scotland gets to choose its own government, rather than getting a Conservative one that it has rejected for the entirety of my life.

Oh, and don't forget the reason for cutting corporation tax during the first independence referendum. Context, as ever, is vital.

[Tinch]

1. Because Scotland, following a vote for independence, would restructure its economy prior to independence, you can't say that Scotland would have a deficit.

You can't. As is the case with Brexit, Scotland would still be considered a member of the UK up until the day it officially gains independence and as such would be subject to the same conditions that it is now. And even then, restructuring an economy takes time. Using your example, if you raise corporation tax on day 1, you're not going to see the (potential) benefits of that on day 1 are you.

An additional point to note, just quickly, is that the UK government has already stated Scotland would take on none of the UK's £1.6 trillion worth of debt. There are two reasons for this; to ease creditor fears about the newly independent state, and because Scotland already pays its fair share of UK debt on an annual basis.

Source? The UK said it would honour all of its debts to appease the markets when Alex Salmond threatened to renege on the debt at the last referendum (which incidentally, the City said would be bad for future borrowing for Scotland) , I have not seen any statements from the UK Government agreeing that Scotland shouldn't take on any of the debt, quite the opposite in fact.

Whether Scotland has paid its fair share to date is irrelevant. If I take out a 4 year loan and meet all of the payments for 2 years, it doesn't mean I can just drop the remaining liability because I've paid on time up until that point.

Falsified is a strong term, but they will be presented with strong bias because it's in the UK government's interests to present them as such.

The SNP have used GERS figures in the past when they have painted a more positive picture of Scotland's position, it would be a bit disingenuous of them to now rubbish the figures because they go the opposite way.

Like I've said, and it must be sensible because nobody contests it, the idea that a Conservative and Unionist Party would be so determined to keep an economically AND (more importantly) politically dead country around its neck, is utterly laughable.

The clue is in the name.

So? That was the SNP's policy at the time, not necessarily the Scottish government. The wonderful thing about independence is that Scotland gets to choose its own government, rather than getting a Conservative one that it has rejected for the entirety of my life.

There's less opposition in Scotland than there is even in the UK. You'll be trading 20 years of Tory rule for 20 years of the SNP.

[Mormolyce]

Remember that time the UK begged to be let into the putative EU, and de Gaulle told them to fuck off?

Maybe you could convince the country to do an about-face on Brexit just by getting a snobby Frenchman to tell them they aren't allowed in.

Sturgeon's argument is completely illogical though.

She wants to have the referendum vote before the UK leaves the EU because she thinks they're going to get a bad deal and it will negatively affect the Scottish economy, i.e. the 16% of its trade that it does with the EU. So her solution? Lets leave the Union which we expect will get a bad deal with the EU as soon as possible, even though that will negatively affect 63% of our trade.

And the icing on the cake? Scotland's biggest single export market is the US - a country that doesn't have a trade deal with the EU and who's President Nicola Sturgeon called for to be BANNED from the UK just last year. The same man who has called for a swift free trade deal with the UK after we leave the EU. You really couldn't make this up!

Its obvious that the reason why she wants to have the referendum in late 2018-early 2019 has nothing to do with the economy, its simply the period in which she thinks she'll have the best chance of winning. Its independence at all costs.

Of course, the people would never be stupid enough to leave a union with a group of nations that comprise the lion's share of their trade...

Oh wait, they did.

[Tinch]

Of course, the people would never be stupid enough to leave a union with a group of nations that comprise the lion's share of their trade...

Oh wait, they did.

63% > 44% and falling.

And it's the SNP who are suggesting that the UK is going to get a disastrous trade deal with the EU, not the other way round.

[Mayhem]

Just replace 'in the' with 'if the'.

Well then we will have to wait, don't forget this is just Boris Johnson's opinion not fact. The argument here is that somebody said that brexiteers said we would remain in the single market, I asked for evidence and that statement from Boris was provided which at no point does he say we are staying in the single market.

If you ignore the "free trade" remark and that everything still will be as it is ... yeah.

[Shadowmelded]

63% > 44% and falling.

And it's the SNP who are suggesting that the UK is going to get a disastrous trade deal with the EU, not the other way round.

Ok so look at it like this; The UK doesn't get a disastrous deal, no trade barriers for Scotland in the EU. The UK does get a disastrous deal, Scotland has joined the Union with the favourable conditions. If you want to argue that Scotland's trade will suffer, you'll have to accept that the UK's will.

[Rockyreg]

If you ignore the "free trade" remark and that everything still will be as it is ... yeah.

We are straying very far from the original point here. You can either provide evidence that the 'brexiteers' said we will stay in the single market or you can't. So you I haven't been shown any.

[Tinch]

Ok so look at it like this; The UK doesn't get a disastrous deal, no trade barriers for Scotland in the EU. The UK does get a disastrous deal, Scotland has joined the Union with the favourable conditions. If you want to argue that Scotland's trade will suffer, you'll have to accept that the UK's will.

I've no doubt that both would suffer, I'm simply challenging the logic of the SNP's reasoning for calling a second referendum. You cannot say it is for economic reasons, when the implications of leaving the Union are far worse than that of leaving the EU.

[Mayhem]

We are straying very far from the original point here. You can either provide evidence that the 'brexiteers' said we will stay in the single market or you can't. So you I haven't been shown any.

You disect the statement part by part and ignore crucial stuff to be correct.

[Rockyreg]

You disect the statement part by part and ignore crucial stuff to be correct.

If you could just point me to the bit where he said we were staying in the single market I would be happy to be proved wrong.

[Kronik85]

So? That was the SNP's policy at the time, not necessarily the Scottish government. The wonderful thing about independence is that Scotland gets to choose its own government, rather than getting a Conservative one that it has rejected for the entirety of my life.

Oh, and don't forget the reason for cutting corporation tax during the first independence referendum. Context, as ever, is vital.

This is the sort of comment that irks me as a Northener when it comes to arguments about Scottish Independence. We don't vote Conservative either yet you guys get to pretend you're more hard done by? More ignored? Yeah fuck off with that notion.

If you aint living in London then your fucked, it's not a uniquely Scottish problem.

[Mayhem]

If you could just point me to the bit where he said we were staying in the single market I would be happy to be proved wrong.

What do you think free trade implies?

[Rockyreg]

What do you think free trade implies?

So there are no non-EU countries that have free trade with the EU?

Most importantly I'm still waiting for you to point out to me where he says we are staying in the single market.

[Pua]

This is the sort of comment that irks me as a Northener when it comes to arguments about Scottish Independence. We don't vote Conservative either yet you guys get to pretend you're more hard done by? More ignored? Yeah fuck off with that notion.

If you aint living in London then your fucked, it's not a uniquely Scottish problem.

If it matters to you, and it may not, I completely understand the plight of northern England and sympathise with the problems there (I even signed the 'Scotland, Take Us With You' petition prior to the 2014 referendum). In many ways, the north is arguably worse off under Conservative rule than Scotland because nobody even pretends to care that the north was obliterated by Thatcherism.

I think there's a presentation today in Hull about a "council of the north" which, though sounding positive, won't happen. The Prime Minister is laughably weak, but a horrible authoritarian. She's not going to allow wealth generated in the north of England to stay in the north of England; there's just no evidence to suggest that she would even countenance it.

Edit: This is the announcement I read. The 'populist' headline is pretty stupid, but that roughly tells you the editor of that paper's view on the subject.

[Deleted]

We are straying very far from the original point here. You can either provide evidence that the 'brexiteers' said we will stay in the single market or you can't. So you I haven't been shown any.

Here you go.