Are guilds all over collapsing or am I just seeing a lot of bad luck?

[Triceratrozer]

Well that didn't take long for a "WoW is dead" spin on this thread - but you are late to the show. According to this prophet, WoW died in 4/2015 and was by far surpassed by ESO and Wildstar.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post29402702

"What happened to ESO and Wildstar? They killed WoW, that's what happened. WoW will be shut down during WoD."

So keep the predictions coming

Actually that was about the point ESO was back on the upswing. Dunno anything about Wildstar. No, they didn't kill WoW but games killing other games is kinda a stupid notion. But that was most definitely a point I was playing ESO instead, so I can't speak for sure but I didn't hear great things about where WoW had been going from anywhere.

Could be attributed to how cynical and vitriolic the internet is, but I don't know.

That said I don't really 'get' why subscription models are still a thing, especially when you have a cash store ontop of it, when most games without subs feel, to me, a lot better.

[WernerCD]

Well that didn't take long for a "WoW is dead" spin on this thread - but you are late to the show. According to this prophet, WoW died in 4/2015 and was by far surpassed by ESO and Wildstar.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post29402702

"What happened to ESO and Wildstar? They killed WoW, that's what happened. WoW will be shut down during WoD."

So keep the predictions coming

[Gasparde]

Most of the guilds dying these days are guilds that shouldn't even exist.

Talking about guilds founded in late WoD/HFC times or even just Legions EN.
Not even talking about guilds here. Talking about a group of 20 randoms that came together at a time where the current
top end content of the game was an utter joke.
Those guilds came together because they stomped through easy/ridiculously nerfed content and they thought they were better
than they actually are (no insult or anything). Like 'oh boi, we killed mythic Xavius, we're so ready for mythic raiding!'. Yea, no.
Those guilds were in for a shock when ToV came out, NH even trumped that.

It's all the 6-months-old 3/10 guilds falling apart. It's the 'I killed mythic Xavius so I'm a mythic raider' realizing that mythic
raiding is more than just 20 wipes for a new boss, that raiding requires more than coming online only for raids and especially
that they as a guild just aren't on the same page about what they want from the game.

[schwarzkopf]

Guilds have always come up and down... day light savings itself has killed a stack of guilds I've been in in 12 years.

It is just nature's way of saying "move on"

[Deleted]

It is currently very common. The main issues so many guilds are collapsing including more casuals and even better guilds :

1) Heroic Gul'Dan is actually quite hard for casual guilds. Many have given up on it.
2) The jump from 3/10 mythic to 4/10 mythic is huge. You actually need 20 good people, with gear, who know what they do and a bit of luck
3) People are burnt out. LEGION has been a long repetitive RNG grindfest.
4) People are fed up and quit. Mostly because of RNG. It simply isn't fun to see other people getting better gear although they are worse.
5) Content. Looks good on the surface, but is actually badly designed.
6) PvP is a complete failure. Some people like to do some PvP from time to time, atleast it was that way in older expansions. Doesn't happen with LEGION anymore, because PvP has been the worst it has even been, besides the changes who look good on paper, but in reality are the worst thing that ever happened to WoW PvP.
7) Class design is on an all time low. Some speccs have been pruned and simplified so much they are beyond help. Rotations and speccs just don't feel right. Reality and intuition are disconnect. (I haven't played ALL speccs so I can't speak for everyone)

And many more reasons, but to write everything down and go into the specifics would be too time consuming, but to sum it up : the problems are mostly due to design choices from Blizzard

lets get through the list:
1) Yes it is, but other heroic end bosses (and normal end bosses before mythic was a thing) were hard too. Lei Shen, Archimonde as some expamples.
2) Yes it is, probably a bit to steep. would actually see some nerfs to bosses 4-7 (everything execept star augur) (i am 5/10 myself, botanist and krosus)
3) Nope. Very Hardcore guilds (World 1-20) might actually burned out, because they rushed 54 on multiple weapons. thats something most people didnt do and thus arent burned out. Just because Gear can now procc higher it doesnt mean its an "Rng grindfest" to gear up. (those are the only two grinds i can think of you could possible mean)
4) Another nope. I am pretty sure most of the population on earth arent as jealous little shits as you try to present the wow playerbase as. Surely some people are jealous of others wo got a lucky titanforge / got many legendarys before they improved some of the flaws. (soft cap really? diminishing return on drop chance really?) but most people wont quit the game / their guild over it.
5) Explain. Dungeon Content? its great if you loved dungeons the other expansions, there is a reason now to keep doing them. Raid Content? All 3 of the raids arent of less quality then older raids (in general). World Quests? Well just because you dont like it (i think you dont like but i might be wrong) it doesnt make it "bad" content. thats actually true for all content. just because you dont like it doesnt make it bad.
6) Wasn't op talking about raiding guilds? I think very few people will quit over pvp when its not the main thing they do and more of a side thing like you describe.
I am not much of a pvper, but i lurk this forum alot longer then i have an account here. So far every expansion, no nearly every season people said "its the worst pvp in wows history!"
7) this is also a thing which you can read on this forum every expansion. (the getting simpler thing, not the pruned thing before anyone jumps on me for that.)

[Vaelorian]

Top guilds collapsing has little or nothing to do with guilds who are lower in bracked. If they get burned out - that does not mean that lesser mortals are getting burned out.
Top guilds are top for being frantic about every bit of an advantage they can get. So logically they get burned out quicker. Leave the top guilds out of this discussion.

Reasons why guilds collapse:
1. the size of the guild matters - especially if people want to go Mythic. When people (management or players alike) cannot do Mythic and they do want to, they leave that guild. The guild collapses, be it slow or fast after people starting to leave.
2. players have imo changed a lot. When I was raiding hardcore, we had people that sticked with us for years. After me and they quit for a while... I came back to the raiding scene and saw people who log in and raid for a raidpatch and quit then come back again for the new raid and quit again. Mythic became far less of a thing.

Number 2 seems to be in conflict with number 1 right? Wrong. When a guild first starts raiding normal and or heroic, people generally want that to be downed. They claim they want Mythic too or the guildmanagement suddenly thinks that (due to the numbers) Mythic would be possible and wants to do that. Ultimately when the heroic content is downed and the guild perhaps did a few Mythic attempts on a few or one Mythic boss... (with a lot of wipes) - interest starts to dwindle. It seems like people have less and less the stomach to endure the slow learning curve that Mythic demands.
So they see less and less people coming online... meanwhile the heroic content is coming out of everyones noses. So people stop coming. The management either switches back to being very casual and foregoes the Mythic ladder or the guild tries desperately to recruit.
And what people are recruited due to timepressure? You guessed it... crapola players or players who really don't fit with the guild. You get more and more people disheartened to stick with the guild in mythic progress. As the skilllevel of people is lower then the players who left and perhaps were also not skilled enough to begin with. Or you get bad attitude people. Now this is basically managements fault. They tried to recruit but weren't as picky as before. Suddenly "packaged deals" are ok. While before they were firmly against it.

Anyway what it boils down to is that guildmanagement sometimes overestimates their own playerbase (or themselves) - or - they suddenly changed their mission statement that Mythic is their new goal, which was not the case before - they recruit people ill suited for their guild to cover up for people leaving.
And that players are no longer people with the same time or mindset that once dominated the raiding scene.

[kamuimac]

I've joined a couple different guilds, alliance and horde, since Legion launch and they all started out strong but have collapsed to the point of raiding not just slowing down but actually brought to a halt because nobody wants the pugs to outnumber the actual guild members. It starts with losing one or two key raiders and then the guild seems to fall in on itself from there as these key players tend to be the main "initiators" (people who are actually willing to raid lead, play tank/heal/support, get people flasks and food, go on recruiting sprees, etc.) Occasionally they will bounce back but then start bleeding people again which only gets worse the more people see "oh, it's a dead guild" and wise up and leave.

I talk to friends about the state of the game and they all say the guilds they're in are dead too. It seems that unless you're willing to constantly drop guilds to go find a more active one, "dead guild" is just the default constant? Or am I just in a weird microcosm where me and everyone I know happen to be dealing with this at the same time?

what you described here is mostly lazyness - why didnt you recruit/organize etc only depended on those "key players" ? why didnt your friends do that ? guess those people got bored of constantly doing eeyrthing for others and left - cant blame them for it

its not game fault - its fault of laziness of your other guildies.

[HeiAggra]

Well that didn't take long for a "WoW is dead" spin on this thread - but you are late to the show. According to this prophet, WoW died in 4/2015 and was by far surpassed by ESO and Wildstar.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post29402702


"What happened to ESO and Wildstar? They killed WoW, that's what happened. WoW will be shut down during WoD."

So keep the predictions coming

From what i know WOW should be dead when Cataclysm hit...
Well i still see WOW around.

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LOL WHAT? What a crock of a post. Nothing but a bunch of lame babbling BS!!

No, not really!

- - - Updated - - -

Since Blizzard releases only BS numbers like "total hours played", I could also be right. It's pretty clear that Blizzard has WOW on maintenance mode at this point.

The collapse of long time guilds left and right isn't normal... this xpac is designed to burn the playerbase out faster than ever. Blizzard is learning the hard way that "total hours played" is only a good metric when those hours are fun and engaging, neither of which is true about what is required to keep a character raiding relevant.

Didnt you guys wanna go back to Old WOW? Well you got the farm back

- - - Updated - - -

My guild stopped raiding for the first time in 4 years. We started into nighthold with about 30 raiders and 5 people quit before mythic even opened. We did pretty well for the last years but Legion has been a struggle from the getgo.
I get it though - raiding is a lot more work and a lot less rewarding than ever before.

Try raiding in Vanilla or TBC..

- - - Updated - - -

Our guild went from 8 pople at the start of Legion and needing to PUG to 22 and starting Mythic raids right now. So no, its not universal.


Guilds have disbanded all the time. And new ones have been founded all the time. And some have stayed, with varying degeree of raid and other activity.

This, also there aso SO MANY GUILD AROUND!
There are more guilds then players

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of course they are. tons of people started playing in the beginning of the xpac and then reality hit them when they saw how badly designed classes are and reliance on grinding AP and legendaries. game sucks atm.

Why? Because you need to play the game to progress?
I bet you preffer WOD

- - - Updated - - -

It is currently very common. The main issues so many guilds are collapsing including more casuals and even better guilds :

1) Heroic Gul'Dan is actually quite hard for casual guilds. Many have given up on it.
2) The jump from 3/10 mythic to 4/10 mythic is huge. You actually need 20 good people, with gear, who know what they do and a bit of luck
3) People are burnt out. LEGION has been a long repetitive RNG grindfest.
4) People are fed up and quit. Mostly because of RNG. It simply isn't fun to see other people getting better gear although they are worse.
5) Content. Looks good on the surface, but is actually badly designed.
6) PvP is a complete failure. Some people like to do some PvP from time to time, atleast it was that way in older expansions. Doesn't happen with LEGION anymore, because PvP has been the worst it has even been, besides the changes who look good on paper, but in reality are the worst thing that ever happened to WoW PvP.
7) Class design is on an all time low. Some speccs have been pruned and simplified so much they are beyond help. Rotations and speccs just don't feel right. Reality and intuition are disconnect. (I haven't played ALL speccs so I can't speak for everyone)

And many more reasons, but to write everything down and go into the specifics would be too time consuming, but to sum it up : the problems are mostly due to design choices from Blizzard

So you blame Blizz for the lack of skill of the players that cant even kill a hc boss?
Do you blame Blizz for putting stuff to do when everyone blamed WOD for the State of WOW
WOW as always be RNG, remember loot is RNG.
PVP is not well balanced i give you that.
WOW is timesink? WOW always has been timesink.
Class design thats your opinion, some are great some are shit.

The only thing i hate in this EXP is the legendary.
There should be none.
At the end of our Class order we would upgrade our artifact to legendary status.
Would be some much more easy and fast to balance classes.

[Deleted]

It's not just you, the outside of raid time grind required to keep a character raid ready, especially at the mythic level, is far beyond anything this game has seen going back to at least Wrath. This is burning out players (and thus guilds) on the game at an exponential pace that hasn't been seen before.

They are probably at an all time low for subs right now or close, and will continue to fall. At this rate, they will probably only release TOS and then possibly a very half hearted last raid a long ways down the road. If they make another xpac, it will likely be the last for WOW.

Yes it's true. Everything is falling apart and legion is not having a good return. It must be the lack of flying.
Or the rng. Or the ffs Blizz no flying legendary rng ffs omg abusing playerbase the grind omg.
Yeah must be that.

You're ridiculous and people are laughing at you

[Deleted]

So you blame Blizz for the lack of skill of the players that cant even kill a hc boss?
Do you blame Blizz for putting stuff to do when everyone blamed WOD for the State of WOW
WOW as always be RNG, remember loot is RNG.
PVP is not well balanced i give you that.
WOW is timesink? WOW always has been timesink.
Class design thats your opinion, some are great some are shit.

The only thing i hate in this EXP is the legendary.
There should be none.
At the end of our Class order we would upgrade our artifact to legendary status.
Would be some much more easy and fast to balance classes.

how can you say WoW was always RNG, saying that loot is RNG
and then you say you hate legendaries and there should be none.
Legendaries are the biggest RNG problem in this game.

you are contradicting yourself.

LEGION is way more RNG in terms of loot than all previous expansion. Warforged, Titanforged, Legendaries, World boss drops that only spawn once every 10 weeks. It is not even close.

[HeiAggra]

how can you say WoW was always RNG, saying that loot is RNG
and then you say you hate legendaries and there should be none.
Legendaries are the biggest RNG problem in this game.

you are contradicting yourself.

LEGION is way more RNG in terms of loot than all previous expansion. Warforged, Titanforged, Legendaries, World boss drops that only spawn once every 10 weeks. It is not even close.

Loot is RNG can drop or not.
Legendaries are a problem due to balance of the classes!
WF,TF are too messy, there should be only warforged and should be +5 ilvl.
Simple sorry if you dont understand that!

[Deleted]

Overall the pve community is dying on a apocalyptic level, especially after nighthold was so badly tuned. The only thing that keeps people subscribing is community loyalty, and that is being flushed down the drain by Ubisoft blizzard

[Deleted]

how can you say WoW was always RNG, saying that loot is RNG
and then you say you hate legendaries and there should be none.
Legendaries are the biggest RNG problem in this game.

you are contradicting yourself.

LEGION is way more RNG in terms of loot than all previous expansion. Warforged, Titanforged, Legendaries, World boss drops that only spawn once every 10 weeks. It is not even close.

How... on earth is he contradicting himself?

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Overall the pve community is dying on a apocalyptic level, especially after nighthold was so badly tuned. The only thing that keeps people subscribing is community loyalty, and that is being flushed down the drain by Ubisoft blizzard

Oh and don't forget blizzard abusing the playerbase of their addiction by using evil grinds to keep em subbed. Don't want to leave that out do we.

[Deleted]

Loot is RNG can drop or not.
Legendaries are a problem due to balance of the classes!
WF,TF are too messy, there should be only warforged and should be +5 ilvl.
Simple sorry if you dont understand that!

hahaha. man your logic is simply adorable.
especially the part where you say "loot is RNG can drop or not".

Loot does not have a 50% to drop and 50% to not drop.
And the legendaries, titanforged and warforged are also RNG factors that have to be accounted for.

No matter how you spin it. You lost this discussion.

LEGION has the biggest levels of RNG of any WoW expansion. This is no opinion. This is no discussion. This is fact.

[ImEveryCliche]

My guild stopped raiding for the first time in 4 years. We started into nighthold with about 30 raiders and 5 people quit before mythic even opened. We did pretty well for the last years but Legion has been a struggle from the getgo.
I get it though - raiding is a lot more work and a lot less rewarding than ever before.

This right here is the problem.

[Deleted]

hahaha. man your logic is simply adorable.
especially the part where you say "loot is RNG can drop or not".

Loot does not have a 50% to drop and 50% to not drop.
And the legendaries, titanforged and warforged are also RNG factors that have to be accounted for.

No matter how you spin it. You lost this discussion.

LEGION has the biggest levels of RNG of any WoW expansion. This is no opinion. This is no discussion. This is fact.

....
Does anyone know what the fuck is she talking about?

[horrified]

The time invested-> reward ratio for raiding mythic has to be one of the biggest contributers. With all the wf and titanforging its not hard to see why people dont wanna spend 12+ hours wiping on a boss each week, when they can clear hc in 2hours and run mythic plus, and get similar or better gear with a bit of luck. If i look at our raidteam fi, a lot of people are runnign around with normal/hc nh wf and titanforged stuff, and a lot of mythic dungeon stuff. That combined with the fact that after the first 3 the stepup is huge indeed, not hard to see why guilds are falling apart. I don't necessarilly think thats a bad thing though, as a lot of people are just not cut out for mythic raiding even they think they are, and there are so many wananbe guilds these days. Especially after a tier like EN, that was just to easy in general, and gave people false expectations.

[Deleted]

....
Does anyone know what the fuck is she talking about?

yes. Everyone with a brain does know what I am talking about

[HeiAggra]

hahaha. man your logic is simply adorable.
especially the part where you say "loot is RNG can drop or not".

Loot does not have a 50% to drop and 50% to not drop.
And the legendaries, titanforged and warforged are also RNG factors that have to be accounted for.

No matter how you spin it. You lost this discussion.


LEGION has the biggest levels of RNG of any WoW expansion. This is no opinion. This is no discussion. This is fact.

50%? lets imagine, a boss nowadays has like 10+ items, with some with higher rate of dropping then others. So you could go a full raid and see the item you need dropping once and you will never have it.
LOL you are like a child lost the discussion LOL.
Open the eyes Blizz if not the all evil ppl claim.
They do bad choices and good ones also.
Like us humans they make mistakes, how would you feel if you had a toon of persons pointing out all the bad moves you make, even if its not bad move for some will be and will want to kill you for whatever they dont like.

[Deleted]

yes. Everyone with a brain does know what I am talking about

You replied with something that made no sense, and then you claimed he lost that discussion. That's unstable.