Just when you thought it could not get worse. CBO report #2 out.

[Endus]

So how will you pay to clean up all the dead bodies? Or do they just sit and rot?

Clearly, I can dump my murder-spree corpses on his lawn, and if he can't afford to have them disposed of properly, he just has to live with my murder-corpses as a consequence.

Because somehow, this makes sense.

[Machismo]

Are you unfamiliar with the Hippocratic Oath? Hospitals provide that service because the doctors WANT to. And they end up jacking up prices to cover that cost, because the American system is inefficiently run. They aren't being "forced" to provide that service, and you don't get to complain about prices being higher to cover it, because by your own argument, if you don't like it, you should just make your own "we don't care" hospital.

I'm very well aware of it. I wouldn't force hospitals to do it. If they want to do it on their own, fine. There does happen to be a law that requires it, so they are being forced to, whether they want to, or not.

https://www.cms.gov/regulations-and-...lation/emtala/

[araine]

Are you unfamiliar with the Hippocratic Oath? Hospitals provide that service because the doctors WANT to. And they end up jacking up prices to cover that cost, because the American system is inefficiently run. They aren't being "forced" to provide that service, and you don't get to complain about prices being higher to cover it, because by your own argument, if you don't like it, you should just make your own "we don't care" hospital.

So true, and he even said he wants sick people to just be turned away it isnt my problem. remember when that GOP crowd a few years back cheered when the question of should a hospital turn away a sick person without insurance and the response was hell yeah with a big teabagger roar from the audience

[paralleluniverse]

Enrollment is high because people are forced to enroll and over pay for shitty insurance or get fined. ACA is shit, ACA will always be shit. Trumpcare isn't any better I will give you that.

Wrong. People are not forced to enroll: Trump has stopped enforcing the mandate.

And people being forced to enroll is what keeps the risk pool healthy and hence prices down.

ACA is awesome. Uninsured rate at record low. Healthcare inflation at record low. No amount of GOP bullshit will change the fact that the ACA is awesome, which is why they are trying to sabotage it and kill the sick.

Trumpcare isn't much better? There's a reason for that: GOP are stupid and policy illiterate, there cannot exist a better healthcare plan than ACA unless it expands the ACA or it is single payer. Thus, their magical unicorn healthcare plan where everything is terrific as Trump promised will never exist, it cannot exist. The logic is simple: to cover preexisting conditions requires a mandate to stop people from waiting until their sick to buy, a mandate requires subsidies, and these are the 3 prongs of ACA.

Maybe instead of being a dishonest hack that tells lies about me, you should go learn about health economics.

[Machismo]

Except that doesnt work we have seen the private market fail totally with the pre existing condition crap life time caps on benefits etc etc, thats not insurance to me thats a SCAM

We haven't seen the private market do much of anything, since we have a corporatocracy, also something I do not support.

[Endus]

It's not anarchy, just less government than you want. The government does not need to be involved in everything. Since I'm not advocating causing harm to anyone, and only wish to restrict actions which cause harm, then your analogy is plainly false. If you can show where I have called for anarchy, or supported harm, please feel free to do so.

It's the necessary extension of your views. The only thing I'm doing is extending your ridiculous logic to the things you want to pay for, too. If your position works for the stuff you don't want to pay for, it works for the stuff you do want to enjoy, just as well. You don't get to make the decision as to what we pay for, because you aren't the King. We live in a democratic society, which means we need to compromise and come to a group decision.

And if we keep doing that, we end up where we already are. Because people like you get outvoted. And those like you don't have the wherewithal to put your lifestyle where your supposed ethics are, and move someplace more supposedly agreeable. Because you KNOW the lifestyle you enjoy requires all those things you don't want to pay for. You just don't want to pony up your share.

[Machismo]

That was the unbolded part. You used "also" which makes them separate clauses.

The bolded parts remain unspinnable self-contradictory. Feel free to redact one of them.

I have no need to redact anything. It's not contradictory. If anything, it was the misinterpretation of one of my pronouns.

People should be able to choose to buy insurance, or not. They should not be forced to buy insurance for other people.

Problem solved, I simplified it.

- - - Updated - - -

Clearly, I can dump my murder-spree corpses on his lawn, and if he can't afford to have them disposed of properly, he just has to live with my murder-corpses as a consequence.

Because somehow, this makes sense.

Careful, if you try, you may get shot. You may want to pick someone's lawn who is less morally reprehensible.

[Bodakane]

Government is not required when it comes to insurance. Take them out of any equation you have. Insurance is nothing more than a willing pool of people who pay their premiums in order to mitigate and share risk. Everyone in the pool paid their premiums, nobody is forced to do anything against their will.

Who was forced?

If you don't want to participate in ACA, you didn't have to. No one forced you to do anything.

[Machismo]

It's the necessary extension of your views. The only thing I'm doing is extending your ridiculous logic to the things you want to pay for, too. If your position works for the stuff you don't want to pay for, it works for the stuff you do want to enjoy, just as well. You don't get to make the decision as to what we pay for, because you aren't the King. We live in a democratic society, which means we need to compromise and come to a group decision.

And if we keep doing that, we end up where we already are. Because people like you get outvoted. And you don't have the wherewithal to put your lifestyle where your supposed ethics are, and move someplace more agreeable.

I have no desire to be the king. Of course people like me get outvoted, there's too many oppressive asshats who want to take other people's money, and spend it on the shit that they want. I have no illusions that people like you are going to go away any time soon. That doesn't mean I have to support it.

[prwraith]

I do not support forcing hospitals to serve and take of people who cannot pay.

Sooo you support hospitals killing through inaction ? Ergo you support killing ?

[Machismo]

Who was forced?

If you don't want to participate in ACA, you didn't have to. No one forced you to do anything.

When government is involved, you have force. Plenty of people were forced to get insurance. If not, they were fined. That fine is force. If you refuse to pay that fine, eventually, a man with a gun is going to forcibly take that money from you.

- - - Updated - - -

Sooo you support hospitals killing through inaction ? Ergo you support killing ?

No, I support not forcing people to do things against their will. Ergo, I support freedom.

How much have you been donating to Africa, you really should increase it. You are killing millions.

[Deianeira]

Believing that the free market will fix everything in society is incredibly naive.

im sorry its not Naive its friggin stupid thats what it is.

[Endus]

I have no desire to be the king. Of course people like me get outvoted, there's too many oppressive asshats who want to take other people's money, and spend it on the shit that they want. I have no illusions that people like you are going to go away any time soon. That doesn't mean I have to support it.

You have three options.

1> Be King. So you get to make the decisions.
2> Vote. If you get outvoted completely, suck it up and accept that your views aren't supported, and that you have to contribute to society regardless of your views on it.
3> Move to another country that fits your views.

The fact that #3 is totally on the table, but people like you are never willing to take it, says volumes.

[Breccia]

People should be able to choose to buy insurance, or not. They should not be forced to buy insurance for other people.

People who buy insurance fall into one of two categories:
A) Those who get sick or injured and get more money back than they spent, and
B) People who pay for other people's insurance.

Sorry. You're kind of in a box, there.

[Machismo]

You have three options.

1> Be King. So you get to make the decisions.
2> Vote. If you get outvoted completely, suck it up and accept that your views aren't supported, and that you have to contribute to society regardless of your views on it.
3> Move to another country that fits your views.

The fact that #3 is totally on the table, but people like you are never willing to take it, says volumes.

Well, I can, and do vote. I chose option number two, as did you. I also reserve the right to complain about the loss of freedoms and money, and bitch about those in power, as well as the authoritarian nature of the fools running the government.

Option 3 really isn't on the table, if there is no government that truly appeals to someone. Taking option three without a viable government, means you will simply be taking option 1 or 2 in your new home.

"If you don't like it, you can leave."

[Scottyjscizzle]

While I don't love ACA (just switch to a version of universal already fucking money hungry assholes) blaming it solely for raising costs is asinine, Insurance companies made multi-million dollar profits. If you want me to believe that increaseing prices was "necessary! due to unhealthy people using healthcare!" Then cut your profits first.

[Machismo]

People who buy insurance fall into one of two categories:
A) Those who get sick or injured and get more money back than they spent, and
B) People who pay for other people's insurance.

Sorry. You're kind of in a box, there.

Not really, because people can choose to buy insurance. They should not be forced to do so. My issue is not with insurance, it is with forcing people to buy insurance, or forcing them to pay for the premiums of others. The issue is with government force, not with insurance.

[paralleluniverse]

It was not implemented brilliantly, are you fucking serious? The technical problems were ridiculous. What should have taken a few people a month to set up, was botched by a multi-million dollar contract. There's also the issue of less people signing up than they wanted, causing a spike in costs, as well as making it unsustainable in the long term.

I'm not a fan of forcing people to buy products from private companies, which is exactly what the ACA did. In regards to freedom alone, we are far less free because of the ACA. It pushed costs onto the wealthy and the healthy, also something I do not support. You seem to think I care if people are uninsured, I don't. If someone doesn't want health insurance, good for them. Freedom is awesome that way.

The only reason the new plan will have a large tax cut for the wealthy, is that the last plan placed a huge tax on them in the first place. I know, you don't give a shit, they have money, so they can afford it... right? It must be nice to punish people, just because they have more money than you do.

Wrong.

In the end, the technical problems didn't matter, first year of enrollments exceeded projections. As for the later years, they also exceeded projections that were updated for the fact that employers were not dumping their employees on the marketplace. The uninsured rate has dropped to 10%, which is actually ahead of the original CBO projection. So big success.

And ahhhhh yes, the libertarian definition of "freedom". The crazy idea that being free to die from injury or sickness, rather than, say, the freedom to pursue one's ambitions without the worry of being bankrupted by injury or sickness, is freedom in its truest form!

[Endus]

Well, I can, and do vote. I chose option number two, as did you. I also reserve the right to complain about the loss of freedoms and money, and bitch about those in power, as well as the authoritarian nature of the fools running the government.

"Loss of freedoms"? Your arguments attack liberties, by trying to defund their protection.

Freedoms and liberties exist because of government protection. Because without that government protecting them, I can kill you and enslave your sons and daughters, and that's "good", because if you can't resist me, you have to "live (or die) with the consequences". Your freedoms and liberties do not exist, because the government does not exist to protect them.

You want people to be "free" to die horrendous deaths, whereas the rest of us see life and health as human rights. Like pretty much the entire developed world.

Option 3 really isn't on the table, if there is no government that truly appeals to someone. Taking option three without a viable government, means you will simply be taking option 1 or 2 in your new home.

"If you don't like it, you can leave."

No, it's on the table, it's just that the nations that operate closer to your ideal are not countries you'd want to live in. Largely because of exactly that. Which, at some level, you know.

[Bodakane]

When government is involved, you have force. Plenty of people were forced to get insurance. If not, they were fined. That fine is force. If you refuse to pay that fine, eventually, a man with a gun is going to forcibly take that money from you.

No, that's a tax.

Lemme guess, you think its wrong to pay taxes too...