Should the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from U.S. schools?

[Allybeboba]

It should be removed because it's a lie and that's not the job of an educational institution. "...,Indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", yeah pull the other leg. The US is fiercely divided between political, social and economic classes. Liberty, the reason why you have the highest number of incarcerations per capita in the west is? Justice for all, except transgender people, gays, the poor, disproportionate incarceration rates for African Americans.

lol...
As if the police make minorities break the law. Of which I am one. One of the minority minorities.
How do transgender and homosexuals not get justice in America compared to European countries?

[Orbitus]

For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:




Students in U.S. schools stand up and recite this together at the beginning of each school day. It is usually followed by a moment of silence.

Here are my arguments for why it should be removed:

1. Although students cannot be officially punished by the school (as far as I know) for refusing to stand and say it, the social pressures to say it are enormous. A student who refuses to say it risks being seen as unpatriotic or even hating their country. They may be ostracized or bullied by their peers, or even receive a lower grade than they deserve by a teacher who doesn't like their stance.

2. The fact that the pledge includes the phrase "under God" is discriminatory against atheist and agnostic students, as well as students who are of a polytheistic religion.

3. Every other pledge I've heard of, you say it once and that's it. What the hell kind of pledge do you have to say every day? Having to say the same thing over and over again causes it to lose meaning. Also, "with liberty and justice for all"? Does anyone really buy that bullshit?

4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

5. It is a waste of instructional time. The Pledge and moment of silence take about 30 seconds each day. Multiply that by 180 school days, and that's one and a half hours every year that could be spent learning.

Considering the original Pledge looked like this before they started doing the hand over heart part of it:

Your number 4, isn't too far off. They only changed it because the Nazis used the same salute to their Fuhrer.

[Activi-T]

lol...
As if the police make minorities break the law.
How do transgender and homosexuals not get justice in America compared to European countries?

The sentencing is harsher for the same crimes if you're African American, specifically drug crimes.

They can be fired from their jobs because they are what they are, the fact they have no legal protection in many states is quite frankly shocking in the land of the great American dream.

[Allybeboba]

Apparently you don't know how to read a simple poll. At the time of your posting, there were 29 votes to remove the Pledge, 15 votes to remove the "under God" part, and 26 votes to keep the Pledge.

Which equals 29 to remove and 15+26= 41 to not remove.

Thus, the pledge is winning.

[AlphaOut]

It's a sad day when a poll shows so many people would prefer it removed. If guess most of those votes are millennials.

[Allybeboba]

The sentencing is harsher for the same crimes if you're African American, specifically drug crimes.

They can be fired from their jobs because they are what they are, the fact they have no legal protection in many states is quite frankly shocking in the land of the great American dream.

Ever heard of EEOC. Federal crime to do what you state.

[Dellis0991]

For those who aren't familiar with it, the Pledge of Allegiance reads as follows:




Students in U.S. schools stand up and recite this together at the beginning of each school day. It is usually followed by a moment of silence.

Here are my arguments for why it should be removed:

1. Although students cannot be officially punished by the school (as far as I know) for refusing to stand and say it, the social pressures to say it are enormous. A student who refuses to say it risks being seen as unpatriotic or even hating their country. They may be ostracized or bullied by their peers, or even receive a lower grade than they deserve by a teacher who doesn't like their stance.

2. The fact that the pledge includes the phrase "under God" is discriminatory against atheist and agnostic students, as well as students who are of a polytheistic religion.

3. Every other pledge I've heard of, you say it once and that's it. What the hell kind of pledge do you have to say every day? Having to say the same thing over and over again causes it to lose meaning. Also, "with liberty and justice for all"? Does anyone really buy that bullshit?

4. It smacks of something the Hitler Youth would have done.

5. It is a waste of instructional time. The Pledge and moment of silence take about 30 seconds each day. Multiply that by 180 school days, and that's one and a half hours every year that could be spent learning.

When I was elementary school we recited it everyday, it meant nothing to us because we assumed oh its just apart of the day. I remember in 4th grade they said we won't be doing that anymore, we shrugged like okay no problem...nowadays the schools here in Detroit don't do the pledge anymore or very few do. I didn't know other school districts where was still reciting the pledge, I thought they already stopped years ago like we did. It was when I was in middle school when I realized that the pledge was or could be offensive to people of other religions or atheists. Its shocking when you realize that adults made us do ridiculous stuff like that as kids and we just went along with it without questioning it.....the minds of children are truly innocent in that way I suppose.

[Triceratrozer]

I cant wait till people start doing a daily muslim prayer. People would be ok with that over saying the pledge of allegiance

I... Ok?

Is phoned in American patriotism a religion now?

[Travis B]

How do transgender and homosexuals not get justice in America compared to European countries?

When did justice become a relative concept?

[PC2]

I cant wait till people start doing a daily muslim prayer. People would be ok with that over saying the pledge of allegiance

Let's say I immigrated to Saudi Arabia and have a young kid who is at school with a Saudi Arabian or Muslim pledge. Demanding they remove it is not the right path. Promoting free expression, more speech to counter speech, would be the honorable path. The nation exists due to Saudis and Muslims, it would be suicidal for them to remove their pledge of self-interest.

[Travis B]

People sure use "fact" loosely around these parts.

Are you really going to try to argue that students who don't stand and recite the Pledge do not risk being bullied by their peers?

This isn't an argument.

Sure it is. If there isn't liberty and justice for all, then don't say "liberty and justice for all". But I guess "liberty and justice for some" just wouldn't have the same ring to it, would it?

Are we actually supposed to treat this as a serious point? Are you sure you weren't just shooting to round things out with fifth claim?

Yes I'm sure. It's a relatively minor point against the Pledge, but it's still more than anyone has been able to come up with a reason for keeping it. Using that time to tell students about current events or scientific breakthroughs so that they generate more interest in what's going on in the world would be a far more valuable expenditure.

[Spectral]

Focusing on just this one since pledge-related bullying and 30 seconds wasted are too silly to really engage with.

Sure it is. If there isn't liberty and justice for all, then don't say "liberty and justice for all". But I guess "liberty and justice for some" just wouldn't have the same ring to it, would it?

The statement is an espoused value, not a factual claim about the exact state of every individual at every moment. This seems kinda obvious.

[Powerogue]

So far, despite all the European voters, the Pledge is winning.
Pretty unbelievable!!

I am baffled by the number of "yeah, this is fine" votes we're getting. I realize as far as priorities go it's pretty low. Is it just "removing this would stir more crap with religious conservatives than its worth" or "this is actually a good thing we should keep on its own merit"?

[Dellis0991]

Seems a bit archaic and it's purposes are also rather malignant in a sense.

It's a form of brainwashing, especially effective as it starts at a young age, and it might prevent people from being patriotic (critical of their own country and government).

The fact that it's brainwashing is pretty obvious from the absurd outrage you'll see when the subject of flagburning is brought up.

It is archaic and a awkward waste of time.

[Mistame]

1. People who "bully" others are the problem, not the ones who refuse to recite irrelevant chants.

2. No, it's not "discriminatory".

4. Here's a life tip: The second "Hitler" pops into your head, you've lost your argument.

5. The pledge is a waste of time. It's archaic and pointless.

[Dug]

I don't really care either way it was just an automatic thing I did every morning half asleep so whatever. The "under God" bit is a bit weird though seeing as we're supposed to keep religion out of schools but hey I fake pray all the time with family/people so also meh

[eScar95]

Throw out the under god part. And fuck whatever that guy was saying about bringing back school prayers.

[Mister Cheese]

Does anyone even know the reason "Under God" was added? :P You damn commies.

[Flatspriest]

Even back when I was in school in the 70's and 80's, the pledge was not mandatory, and neither was saying the part "under god" if you chose to say the pledge. It was simply something to take the children's minds off of work for a minute or two. Also, once we got out of elementary school, we no longer had the pledge in school.

[Darththeo]

Does anyone even know the reason "Under God" was added? :P You damn commies.

Because people thought Commies couldn't/wouldn't say it.