England vs Spain over Gibralter

[Deleted]

Fair guess they will be asked now what they want: UK or EU. But staying in EU means "become a part of Spain"; not their cup of tea AFAIK.

They sink the Rock before becoming one with Spain .
My guess is that they'll be offered dual citizenship, or something along those lines. But that's as far as the population goes. Trade deals and that stuff I've no idea.

[Mihalik]

These kind of views will do more to sabotage the European project than anything the UK can or will do.

It is fair, and expected, for the EU to look after its member states' interests but that does not include supporting one member state trying to undermine another country's territories.

Why not? If it is a net benefit for the EU, or in the greater scheme of things something that can be used as political leverage against the UK? But, again, Spain is not threatening the territorial integrity of Gibraltar. It is simply saying that it will withdraw the concessions it made to make the place livable, if this arrangement is no longer in its interests. Which is a reasonable position.

[Deleted]

Why would the UK need specific Spanish consent for what happens with Gibraltar in any UK-EU deal?

Because UK-EU deals don't include Gibraltar, since overseas territories are not part of the UK.
Gibraltar became part of the EU as membership negotiations. Membership gone, exceptions gone.
Maybe Britain can leverage their power to negotiate the veto away

[Kalis]

Gotta love England.

The country that desperately loves to pretend their better than the "war-mongering" United States, but when it comes time for them to act like grown ups (by releasing conquered territories to their so-called 'allies' [or former 'allies' I guess], to returning national heirlooms they outright fucking stole) they wind up making Donald Trump look like the picture of maturity.

Releasing conquered territories? You realise Spain conquered them as well, don't you? Gibraltar is not a Spanish word.

They ceded Gibraltar in perpetuity.

[Deleted]

lol that's rich considering the last time a Frenchman tried to invade Russia he lost all but 20,000 out of his 650,000 men. The man with the square moustache lost even more.

In more recent history, people half their size defeated them to the extent they had to call Uncle Sam for help, only for him to likewise get beaten.

France going up against Russia is like Athens (wimps) against Sparta (super soldiers). They will just eat you for breakfast.

Go on, better go and hide behind Uncle Sam again.

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Vatican has an army?

Seems the EU isn't going to let the UK get away with this brexit easily.

And I heavily suspect the EU made these concessions towards Spain in order to silence them about a possible EU application of an independant Scotland.

Yeah scotland joining the eu means bye bye to Catalonia

[Kalis]

Because UK-EU deals don't include Gibraltar, since overseas territories are not part of the UK.
Gibraltar became part of the EU as membership negotiations. Membership gone, exceptions gone.
Maybe Britain can leverage their power to negotiate the veto away

Perhaps you could answer my question about why Spain should have specific consent.

[Deleted]

lol that's rich considering the last time a Frenchman tried to invade Russia he lost all but 20,000 out of his 650,000 men. The man with the square moustache lost even more.

In more recent history, people half their size defeated them to the extent they had to call Uncle Sam for help, only for him to likewise get beaten.

France going up against Russia is like Athens (wimps) against Sparta (super soldiers). They will just eat you for breakfast.

Go on, better go and hide behind Uncle Sam again.

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Vatican has an army?

Why not? If it is a net benefit for the EU, or in the greater scheme of things something that can be used as political leverage against the UK? But, again, Spain is not threatening the territorial integrity of Gibraltar. It is simply saying that it will withdraw the concessions it made to make the place livable, if this arrangement is no longer in its interests. Which is a reasonable position.

And if that happens, the uk can enforce territorial waters.

[Deleted]

Perhaps you could answer my question about why Spain should have specific consent.

There is no "should" in what's not legislated.
EU countries agree (or will agree) it's beneficial to the EU interests and that of its members.

[Mihalik]

. Last I checked Norway wasn't an EU member state.

https://ec.europa.eu/energy/en/topic...gy-cooperation
https://www.ft.com/content/9ed984b0-...1-8e15c9a029fb it's not a member state, but Brussels still calls the shots.

Speaking as someone who operates in the North Sea oil & Gas industry

I kinda wonder what exactly you do, as you seem to be unaware of the regulatory, legal and financial framework within which North Sea development exists.

And regarding fisheries...the fish needs to be processed, shipped and sold somewhere. Which one way or another involves either EU related industries or markets.

[Aeula]

Typical Spain, hiding behind the EU to pretend they're better than they actually are.

[Deleted]

And I heavily suspect the EU made these concessions towards Spain in order to silence them about a possible EU application of an independant Scotland.

What's to silence. Spain has repeatedly said that indi Scotland is cool, should it break away according to UKs constitutional order.

[Kalis]

There is no "should" in what's not legislated.
EU countries agree (or will agree) it's beneficial to the EU interests and that of its members.

I will provide the wording again:

"After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."

Why is Spain specifically mentioned in that? Heads up, it is because they are trying to backdoor a sovereignty claim, at some point you will realise this.

[Deleted]

Why is Spain spcifically mentioned in that? Heads up, it is because they are trying to backdoor a sovereignty claim, at some point you will realise this.

Again, there is no backdoor: out in the open, very clearly so, and not bypassing any regulation. The claim is already recognized by the UK, there is nothing new on the table.

For all of your bitching that the EU needs to listen to the interests of its members, and be attractive to them, you surely react weird when it clearly does.

[Deleted]

Why would the UK need specific Spanish consent for what happens with Gibraltar in any UK-EU deal?

Because spain can veto any eu uk deal.

[Kalis]

Again, there is no backdoor: out in the open, very clearly so, and not bypassing any regulation. The claim is already recognized by the UK, there is nothing new on the table.

That is not what backdoor means in this instance, they cannot get the UK to agree to share sovereignty, as the people of Gibraltar do not want that and the UK agreed to abide by their decision, so they are trying to get it via another method, i.e. via the backdoor.

[Mihalik]

And if that happens, the uk can enforce territorial waters.

Your point being? This is not about Spain blockading Gibraltar. It's about Spain being able to shut off power and water supply to Gibraltar, closing all land access, being able to shut off the airport by withdrawing access to its airspace and being able to choke Gibraltar fisheries by restricting access to its own territorial waters.

If you know anything about the history of Gibraltar you would know that until the 1980's Gibraltar was basically a hellhole of poverty and isolation because Spain did all of the above.

[Kalis]

Because spain can veto any eu uk deal.

They would not need to be mentioned specifically, they would already be covered under the mention of EU.

[Puupi]

I will provide the wording again:

"After the United Kingdom leaves the Union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."

Why is Spain specifically mentioned in that? Heads up, it is because they are trying to backdoor a sovereignty claim, at some point you will realise this.

Nah, they just want money. They don't want UK to hand out the money to EU, Spain wants the money directly.

[Deleted]

That is not what backdoor means in this instance, they cannot get the UK to agree to share sovereignty, as the people of Gibraltar do not want that and the UK agreed to abide by their decision, so they are trying to get it via another method, i.e. via the backdoor.

Gibraltar is being shafted by the UK, as it can't reconcile Gibraltar's wishes to remain in the EU, and the wishes of England.
Spain will, again, open their hand and offer Gibraltar a middle way. There's no backdoor, only a showing of Spanish generosity. If they want a deal, they'll have it. If not, they won't.

[Deleted]

The British haven't even officially invoked article 50 for 1 week and are already threatening to got to war with Europe.

Let them try.