England vs Spain over Gibralter

[Picander]

Putting my more serious thoughts back to the forefront, I work for a company which exports a lot to Europe. If we lose access to the common market and its rules it means we will no longer have to pay the French, Spanish, German, Irish etc VAT.

"Goods imported from non-member states are subject to VAT at the rate applicable in the member state into which the goods are imported, regardless of whether the goods are received for consideration and regardless of who imports the goods": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax#Importation_of_goods

[Kalis]

Unlike the conversations you did not have with people you do not know.

I am a British ex-pat, I have conversations with ex-pats all the time.

That wasn't the question, nice moving of goal posts.

No goalposts were moved. My future will not be affected by any intentions, or lack thereof, in this matter. That is not the same as saying I never let any affect my decisions.

The intention expressed was to not express any further intentions... Hey see they did what you asked them of.

That is not expressing an intention to do resolve the residency issue, that is expressing an intention to put off resolving it.

Except you don't ask one person, you ask a whole group and expect one answer, so yes that will start negotiations.

They could have done it with a show of hands and provided either a yes or no based on that, no negotiations required. Or each member state could have said yes/no. Instead they did fuck all.

It seems you are perfectly fine with the EU not giving a shit about its citizens and you care more for the institution than the people it is intended to look after.

[Pann]

"Goods imported from non-member states are subject to VAT at the rate applicable in the member state into which the goods are imported, regardless of whether the goods are received for consideration and regardless of who imports the goods": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax#Importation_of_goods

Although he is technically wrong in what he says that does not disprove what he is saying. At present goods dispatched to EU member states are zero rated as long as the company being supplied is VAT registered so rather than being collected at the frontier, as in your link, VAT is collected by buyer. When the UK leaves the EU his company will zero rate exports and will not have to display VAT in its prices however the VAT will still be paid by the buyer, so in reality it makes no difference to the price paid by the buyer, but this time to the customs authorities.

[Khetagurov]

I hope the British remember this when they are barred from the Spanish beaches. Where else will they turn lobster red and sizzled?

the gutter press does not represent the people of the country, please remember that.

having said that though, Gibraltar is British, has been for 300 years, and it will remain so. the people chose overwhelmingly to stay as part of us, and that's how democracy works, you know?

[Pann]

For starters, I don't doubt that my government will work in the interest of its citizens, and that of UK residents, as it's always done.
I also prefer my government offer grantees, and not shallow promises.
For all any EU country knew, the UK could perfectly not even attempt to trigger the exit: it was a non binding question after all.
In the face of such UK-waged uncertainty, any response is a trap.

I don't believe I said anything about yours or anyone else's governments working against the interests of its citizens.

[Mayhem]

I am a British ex-pat, I have conversations with ex-pats all the time.

Sure sure.

No goalposts were moved. My future will not be affected by any intentions, or lack thereof, in this matter. That is not the same as saying I never let any affect my decisions.

Then you shouldn´t have answered no when asked about if you plan based on intentions alone. Whatever though, you will just keep shifting around, what is it this time the nuanced english language or you not understanding a simple question because i´m not a native english speaker?

That is not expressing an intention to do resolve the residency issue, that is expressing an intention to put off resolving it.

... i know, because they said they wouldn´t express any further intentions as implied by their expressed intention to not express any further intentions. Come on this really isn´t too hard to understand.

They could have done it with a show of hands and provided either a yes or no based on that, no negotiations required. Or each member state could have said yes/no. Instead they did fuck all.

It seems you are perfectly fine with the EU not giving a shit about its citizens and you care more for the institution than the people it is intended to look after.

The UK not being happy with the EUs position of "no negotiation before notificiation" is really not the EUs fault. It also doesn't imply anything you say. The UK tried something that failed and you want to blame it on the EU for it seems to be because of no other reason than your loyality to the UK.

It is basically like this:

So do you want to talk about the children?
Not untill you notified me of leaving.
I really do care about the children, and you?
I told you i´m not going to talk about anything untill you notified me of leaving.

Kalis: /GASP He doesn't care for the children at all!

Everyone else /facepalm

[Picander]

the gutter press does not represent the people of the country, please remember that.

having said that though, Gibraltar is British, has been for 300 years, and it will remain so. the people chose overwhelmingly to stay as part of us, and that's how democracy works, you know?

Being a spaniard myself, I can assure you that nobody here in Spain is discussing the sovereignty of Gibraltar. What we are discussing is the situation of Gibraltar after the brexit. The people of Gibraltar are saying that they want no changes for them when UK leaves the EU, but it's obvious for everybody but the "gibraltareños" that the situation will change.

[Khetagurov]

Being a spaniard myself, I can assure you that nobody here in Spain is discussing the sovereignty of Gibraltar. What we are discussing is the situation of Gibraltar after the brexit. The people of Gibraltar are saying that they want no changes for them when UK leaves the EU, but it's obvious for everybody but the "gibraltareños" that the situation will change.

they voted heavily in favour of staying in the EU - i think personally you should give them the rights they had before. it would be easy enough, and it would show goodwill on your part, which is somewhat lacking at the moment, despite what the politicians say.

[Picander]

they voted heavily in favour of staying in the EU - i think personally you should give them the rights they had before. it would be easy enough, and it would show goodwill on your part, which is somewhat lacking at the moment, despite what the politicians say.

They voted heavily too to remain British.

They just want the best from Britain and the best from Spain and the EU. But they should know that you can't have everything in this life.

[Kalis]

Sure sure.

I am British living on Malta, you would struggle to not talk to ex-pats here.

Then you shouldn´t have answered no when asked about if you plan based on intentions alone. Whatever though, you will just keep shifting around, what is it this time the nuanced english language or you not understanding a simple question because i´m not a native english speaker?

We were talking about in this case, then the conversation switched to you stating that nobody makes plans based on intentions, which I said was nonsense.

Like most people, I do not typically make plans based on things that will not affect me, however I do make them based on things that will affect me. For some inexplicable reason, you think that is unusual.

... i know, because they said they wouldn´t express any further intentions as implied by their expressed intention to not express any further intentions. Come on this really isn´t too hard to understand.

Which leaves EU citizens in limbo, when there was no need to be.

The UK not being happy with the EUs position of "no negotiation before notificiation" is really not the EUs fault. It also doesn't imply anything you say. The UK tried something that failed and you want to blame it on the EU for it seems to be because of no other reason than your loyality to the UK.

For the love of God! This is the EU failing to show intent that is negatively affecting EU citizens. You have not even grasped that you are arguing in favour of the EU and against EU citizens.

How the hell can you argue against something, when you do not know what position you are arguing against, or whose position you are arguing against?

It is basically like this:

So do you want to talk about the children?
Not untill you notified me of leaving.
I really do care about the children, and you?
I told you i´m not going to talk about anything untill you notified me of leaving.

Kalis: /GASP He doesn't care for the children at all!

Everyone else /facepalm

At least you have clean windows.

[Khetagurov]

They voted heavily too to remain British.

They just want the best from Britain and the best from Spain and the EU. But they should know that you can't have everything in this life.

what's the point in punishing them? hell, there's only about 25000 of them. it stinks of pettiness and impotent anger.

[Cybran]

what's the point in punishing them? hell, there's only about 25000 of them. it stinks of pettiness and impotent anger.

Maybe they should stop smuggling cigarettes and drugs into Spain. They should decide which they value more. Being a token part of a failing Britain or a meaningful part of Europe.

[Kalis]

Maybe they should stop smuggling cigarettes and drugs into Spain. They should decide which they value more. Being a token part of a failing Britain or a meaningful part of Europe.

Wait...are you pro-EU now?

[Khetagurov]

Maybe they should stop smuggling cigarettes and drugs into Spain. They should decide which they value more. Being a token part of a failing Britain or a meaningful part of Europe.

they'll never be a meaningful part of Europe, but they are a meaningful part of Britain, based off their position at the entrance to the Mediterranean, if nothing else.

and if they commit crimes of that nature, come down hard on them. we won't object. anyway, traditionally Brits smuggle cigarettes OUT of Europe, not the other way round.

[Mayhem]

I am British living on Malta, you would struggle to not talk to ex-pats here.

On the internet everyone is everything, don't you know? According to you i don't talk to citizens from EU countries living in the UK, according to me you are not living on Malta.

We were talking about in this case, then the conversation switched to you stating that nobody makes plans based on intentions, which I said was nonsense.

I never stated that. I said that making plans on intentions alone is stupid, not that no one does it.

Like most people, I do not typically make plans based on things that will not affect me, however I do make them based on things that will affect me. For some inexplicable reason, you think that is unusual.

It was of course in light of you being affected, else the question would not make any sense, neither would your answer. Also that it will affect you is an unknown as it was just about intentions not guarantees. So you make plans based on things that might affect you? Great you can do that without a need for stated intentions, everything is fine.

Which leaves EU citizens in limbo, when there was no need to be.

It would left them in limbo anyway.

For the love of God! This is the EU failing to show intent that is negatively affecting EU citizens. You have not even grasped that you are arguing in favour of the EU and against EU citizens.

How the hell can you argue against something, when you do not know what position you are arguing against, or whose position you are arguing against?

You seeing something that is not there is not me arguing in favour of anything. All of this will be part of the negotiations, stated intents are nothing but show for the masses. You fell for it, great job.

[Deleted]

It was intended to take that off the table as a negotiating tool, a move which actually favours the EU in negotiations. As it stands, the UK is strengthened, as the EU has made it clear residency of current citizens is a bargaining chip.

Strengthened in public opinion, I take it. Because, these opinions don't hold much water negotiation-wise. I'm sure you can figure these opinions may take different shape, from the other side of the channel.
After all, it is the UK the one rubbed the wrong way when people freely move around. They're not so much a bargaining chip, but something everyone is interested in knowing where our right stands, like you argue. It just so happens that promising "we'll look out for you" amounts to nothing. What reciprocal visas, citizenship, or lack of it, is offered from both sides is the information people actually need.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't believe I said anything about yours or anyone else's governments working against the interests of its citizens.

I wasn't contradicting you either.
If the expectation is reasonable or not is a matter of opinion. And I rather they don't promise something they can't deliver. Sometimes it's best to shut up (as other posters would suggest the EU did on the Gibraltar issue). And I think waiting for the official letter was in EU's interest, that of the 27, and that of migrants.

[Kalis]

On the internet everyone is everything, don't you know? According to you i don't talk to citizens from EU countries living in the UK, according to me you are not living on Malta.

Why would anyone lie about living in Malta? It is not exactly Monaco.

I never stated that. I said that making plans on intentions alone is stupid, not that no one does it.

...apart from the ones who do.

It was of course in light of you being affected, else the question would not make any sense, neither would your answer. Also that it will affect you is an unknown as it was just about intentions not guarantees. So you make plans based on things that might affect you? Great you can do that without a need for stated intentions, everything is fine.

Are you just typing random words now?

I am not affected by this, hence me saying that this would not influence my choices. That is it. You could acknowledge that you misunderstood, or move on, but instead you double down.

It would left them in limbo anyway.

Still no.

You seeing something that is not there is not me arguing in favour of anything. All of this will be part of the negotiations, stated intents are nothing but show for the masses. You fell for it, great job.

You jumped to the defence of the EU against the UK, without having realised that you are not actually arguing against the UK. Yours is the reaction of a fanatic. Is blind fanaticism an Austrian trait?

[Noradin]

How are the British the aggressors in this matter? Spain can't just take whatever clay they want and blame any retaliation on the British....

How are the British not the aggressors? Aren't they the ones threathening to go to war?
It is not like Spain didn't have a veto anyway. That one was clear even bevore the UK voted on the referendum.

[Deleted]

The way Brexit is going, British will be too poor to travel in a couple of years.

Lol nice one. It will barely make any difference either way.

[Xkiller9000]

Gibraltar? Watchpoint Gibraltar?



It belongs to Overwatch