Catering To Casual Playerbase

[Daffan]

You are totally wrong. Casuals don't complain about these things as you put it.

Welfare mechanics were created in TBC because raids needed a fast way to gear up replacements. For the same reason, attunements were removed in TBC. Since then, we had gear catch-up in some way or another, so people who wanted to run the latest raid could catch up more easily. This has nothing to do with casuals. Casuals getting better gear was a nice side-effect for them, but besides getting better gear from casual content, they still had inferior gear compared to people who raided.

Progression issue was also a different thing, and it was the worst in WoD, because in every other expansion we had more dungeon content, and even different tiers of dungeon content. WoD dungeons were few and have become obsolete fast. At the same time, there have been no dailies and open world content until the release of Tanaan, because Blizzard as usually swung the pendle in a different direction too far, and instead bringing dailies to a reasonable amount and don't double-gate things by reputation, they just removed them completely.

And casuals are not the one who complain about content drought. It's people who spend their whole time in wow, playing only one character, who complain. They burn through content asap and then sit in the current hub of the expansion and whine. Casuals usually have too much content to do to whine about that they have nothing to do. The only exception was WoD, where all content was either raids, or Garrison. But this is a totally other thing, and everybody was bitching about this scenario.

It's butthurt elitists with low self-esteem who cannot stand that other people are able to get some "shinies" who whine. You seem to be one of them.

So, so, so wrong

I never said anything about comparing bad gear or good gear, or anything elitist like that. I'm saying being able to get decent gear for free that obsoletes or trivializes content is just bad in general long term. 90%+ of content is trivial over geared garbage only people addicted to the reward screen like and another 5% is mythic raiding which you need fixed raid size and schedule for.

Secondly, it's not only hardcore who complain - did you hear lots of complain from the entire player base about content drought in TBC? No, but you did in every recent expac. It doesn't actually matter if hardcore complain because they are major minority and always beat content to fast, but when you hear the normal people - then you know it's a problem.

Finally, haha I'm no elitist. I'm ultra casual with 875 ilvl from stated "welfare" mechanics. No point farming AP/Gear for months when I can get for free later xD Don't raid Mythic so don't need to farm it out. It's boring being a casual these days, game plays itself.

BTW. Do you really think casuals would complain about getting free gear? No, that's why I said it was a double edged sword. They'd take free 940 in every slot in a heart beat and then probably turn around and complain there is no content for them at 940.

and what would that complain be ? im geniuinly curious because i have yet to see such complain.

the only ones complaining about this would be entitled hardmodes crybabies aka definetly not those casuals you have in mind

LOL majority of WoW Reddit, WoW forums and everywhere else in 4.3 Cata, MoP and WoD - waaaah there is no content to do. "I ran around Tanaan jungle, scooped up a full set of welfare and skipped 2 entire raid tiers now there is no content to do! I hate HFC"

Or "I hate dragon soul for 1 year lol, I did end time heroics and now have a full set of 378 and skipped t11/t12 lol pleb raids"

Or "lol 2/2 SoO free 540's (btw lol earlier tiers I just skipped) bloody 14 month SoO content drought!"

That's why this game is all about patch cycles now instead of a constant player base who stick around playing and progressing - because you don't have to. You log in, do your junk in 2 weeks then peace out for the next patch. Obviously if you raid bigger your sticking around longer, but as people keep telling me - that is a raiding minority so who cares about them.

Blizzard lucked out big time tho to salvage the decreasing playerbase, they probably hired a professional psychologist/medical dude who knows about dopamines and reward structures, hence the RNG lottery machines in Legion to keep people happy farming the same stuff.

[-Joker-]

Why is Blizzard always catering to the casual player base? I get that people don't have the time to invest into a game comparing to the hardcore player base, but it makes the hardcore player base irrelevant when nerfs come into play. You have to balance between them two, not only focus on one player base type.

I've seen it already nerfs regarding the kruul artifact challenge. It was done twice, perhaps triple times (Might missed one) and the question is: Why?
Its a Challenge end of story. People state that you need the specific item level to do it. No? I've seen dozen of times where even 920 ilvl players had to do the challenge 80 times give or take less/more. Please stop the BS complaining and think of this challenge as GOAL, a journey, on what do you need to conquer it.

Given that only 5% - 7% of players actually see the most hardcore of content, it's not really a shock. Cater to the largest demographic, and make some money. Elites will bitch that it is too casual, casuals will bitch it is too hard. Who do you listen to? 5% or 95%?

[Daffan]

Given that only 5% - 7% of players actually see the most hardcore of content, it's not really a shock. Cater to the largest demographic, and make some money. Elites will bitch that it is too casual, casuals will bitch it is too hard. Who do you listen to? 5% or 95%?

While it's true they are minority. And they shouldn't cater for mythic raiders imo. They should at least try and make people do some content, instead of giving everything for free/trivial instantly and let them progress naturally.

WoW squandered a huge casual player population by doing that. The hardcores have never been enough to sustain the game as it was at its peak.

If you make the game too casual, it gets beat too fast, trivial/obsolete content everywhere like now for the average player... too hardcore and nobody does anything.

WoW is not hardcore at all, even since Cata. It's just a game that plays itself unless your tryharding Mythic. That's the problems imo, even TBC wasn't hardcore, but at least it didn't play itself.

[-Joker-]

While it's true they are minority. And they shouldn't cater for mythic raiders imo. They should at least try and make people do some content, instead of giving everything for free/trivial instantly and let them progress naturally.

The idea of an entire World of content, is to allow the player the freedom and opportunity to start, and end, where he or she may. Imagine how bored we would all be if every zone were on rails and you were required to follow the SAME questline for every single alt. You'd level 2 characters and drop. Forced challenge material is the same. As someone who raided hardcore, 25M for days at a time during Wrath, I just no longer have it in me to raid... not even LFR. But, that should not stop someone else from at least seeing the content and receiving a lackluster gear reward for it. Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything, but there was another guy who felt only those who were worthy should be kept, and others who failed to meet the criteria... well, you know how that story ends.

[Daffan]

The idea of an entire World of content, is to allow the player the freedom and opportunity to start, and end, where he or she may. Imagine how bored we would all be if every zone were on rails and you were required to follow the SAME questline for every single alt. You'd level 2 characters and drop. Forced challenge material is the same. As someone who raided hardcore, 25M for days at a time during Wrath, I just no longer have it in me to raid... not even LFR. But, that should not stop someone else from at least seeing the content and receiving a lackluster gear reward for it. Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything, but there was another guy who felt only those who were worthy should be kept, and others who failed to meet the criteria... well, you know how that story ends.

I'm not saying you have to do mythic level raid or anything lol, for everything else you put at the start its a little hyperbole :P

and alt catchup is perfectly fine, alt catchup is actually what people asked for back in Vanilla originally.

The problem is because of so much "freedom", Blizzard is making everything either trivial or obsolete to satisfy that criteria and it's boring. Unless you raid Mythic you basically have a game that plays itself.

[-Joker-]

The problem is because of so much "freedom", Blizzard is making everything either trivial or obsolete to satisfy that criteria and it's boring. Unless you raid Mythic you basically have a game that plays itself.

And some people are ok with a game that plays itself. As long as you still have content that suits your needs, and they have it to suit their needs, I fail to see why anyone would concern themselves with anyone else's gameplay. I mean it would be one thing to sit here and whine for another type of raiding the way the fliers bitch about pathfinder, but when it comes to instanced content, there should be multiple levels that allow players of all skill levels a chance to see it. Otherwise, you have elitists kicking noobs (and scrubs) and they never get to see the content thanks to assholes who prefer gearscore over friendships.

[Daffan]

And some people are ok with a game that plays itself. As long as you still have content that suits your needs, and they have it to suit their needs, I fail to see why anyone would concern themselves with anyone else's gameplay. I mean it would be one thing to sit here and whine for another type of raiding the way the fliers bitch about pathfinder, but when it comes to instanced content, there should be multiple levels that allow players of all skill levels a chance to see it. Otherwise, you have elitists kicking noobs (and scrubs) and they never get to see the content thanks to assholes who prefer gearscore over friendships.

I don't actually mind LFR. I just hate that content I've never done becomes such a trivial piece of garbage over night when a patch releases. (raids, dungeons, professions, everything realistically)

Or why I, as a casual would ever bother with gear or AP knowing right around the corner is a patch that makes it 100x faster. More people are catching on to this, which is why the game is way more about patch cycles for player activity then a static trend line of activity.

[-Joker-]

I don't actually mind LFR. I just hate that content I've never done becomes such a trivial piece of garbage over night when a patch releases. (raids, dungeons, professions, everything realistically)

Or why I, as a casual would ever bother with gear or AP knowing right around the corner is a patch that makes it 100x faster. More people are catching on to this, which is why the game is way more about patch cycles for player activity then a static trend line of activity.

Again, why is it important? If you enjoy the challenge, go for the challenge. Don't wait for the patch. As a casual, I don't even raid anymore. Infact, just last Saturday I completed the Seige of Org for the first time ever. Solo. As a Bear. The game is whatever you make it, and there is something for everyone.

[ComputerNerd]

Why is Blizzard always catering to the casual player base? I get that people don't have the time to invest into a game comparing to the hardcore player base, but it makes the hardcore player base irrelevant when nerfs come into play. You have to balance between them two, not only focus on one player base type.

I've seen it already nerfs regarding the kruul artifact challenge. It was done twice, perhaps triple times (Might missed one) and the question is: Why?
Its a Challenge end of story. People state that you need the specific item level to do it. No? I've seen dozen of times where even 920 ilvl players had to do the challenge 80 times give or take less/more. Please stop the BS complaining and think of this challenge as GOAL, a journey, on what do you need to conquer it.

Or they have certain difficulty in-mind that didn't come out of PTR or other testing.
Why must there be the quite ignorant assumption that a reduction in difficulty is "catering to the casuals", which again is simply wrong as casuals are time-constrained, not "unskilled".

Go do it yourself before that happens, go get it "pre-nerf" and hold that up as "proof" of how much better you are.

[Glorious Leader]

Or they have certain difficulty in-mind that didn't come out of PTR or other testing.
Why must there be the quite ignorant assumption that a reduction in difficulty is "catering to the casuals", which again is simply wrong as casuals are time-constrained, not "unskilled".

Go do it yourself before that happens, go get it "pre-nerf" and hold that up as "proof" of how much better you are.

I dont think the criteria for casual is necessarily entirely based on time. Its really more about commitment as a whole. Youd have a hard time convincing me wod was casual friendly because it served mythic raiders who merely wanted to raid log exceptionally well. Those mythic raiders are commited, theyre mythic raiders and are typically well skilled individuals who do care about the various min maxing that can go into playbat mythic lvl. This does not strike me as being particulalry casual.

[Lastlivingsoul]

Why is Blizzard always catering to the casual player base? I get that people don't have the time to invest into a game comparing to the hardcore player base, but it makes the hardcore player base irrelevant when nerfs come into play. You have to balance between them two, not only focus on one player base type.

I've seen it already nerfs regarding the kruul artifact challenge. It was done twice, perhaps triple times (Might missed one) and the question is: Why?
Its a Challenge end of story. People state that you need the specific item level to do it. No? I've seen dozen of times where even 920 ilvl players had to do the challenge 80 times give or take less/more. Please stop the BS complaining and think of this challenge as GOAL, a journey, on what do you need to conquer it.

Simple math...

1. There are 95% more Casuals then true "Hardcore players."

2. These 15$ a month "Casuals" actually have jobs, school and families that require real world attention so they can't waste all of their life pushing the feeder bar for a digital nugget for 16+ hours a day like your hardcore player.

3. Why would you ignore 95% of your customers causing them to quit to cater to the egos of the Elite 5%.

What is good for subscription numbers is good for the game, sounds bad but you expect more out of each expansion and that shit don't come cheap. Next time you see a casual getting ganked in real world, or a pug barely squeaking by in LFR give him a piece of gear, say a kind word, give him a reason to think WoW is cool cause he might just be the reason you get another raid tier.

[ComputerNerd]

I dont think the criteria for casual is necessarily entirely based on time. Its really more about commitment as a whole. Youd have a hard time convincing me wod was casual friendly because it served mythic raiders who merely wanted to raid log exceptionally well. Those mythic raiders are commited, theyre mythic raiders and are typically well skilled individuals who do care about the various min maxing that can go into playbat mythic lvl. This does not strike me as being particulalry casual.

It is, a casual player is time-constrained.
An unskilled or inexperienced player is not the same.

It is the opposite of hardcore, where the player can plan their life around their gaming.
Casuals plan their gaming around their life.

I don't have the opportunity to commit in advance, as I have real life circumstances which are inconvenient and prone to interrupting things.
I can have in total similar gameplay duration to "hardcore" players, but mine is much more fragmented, less organised.

Bashing the casuals comes from one of two thoughts, demanding that we recognise their superiority, or complaining that they aren't the sole audience of mother blizzard's attentions.

[Selky]

Current WoW gives scraps to casual players, it certainly doesn't cater to them.

[Coffeexbean]

It all depends on what you define as casual. I think if your a casual like then Legion is awesome because there is sooo much shit to do and I dont worry about grinding anything I just play the game and heroic difficulty only for raids as doing normal/lfr before is a spoiler. Some people see it as there is so much to do how is a casual player going to get it all done but that isnt the worry for a casual player, we just play for enjoyment when the end comes it comes there is no rush. I always end up with AOTC the week before new patch and end up completing reps/gear so its working out for this casual player.


I also see what you mean by WOD catering to casuals because you dont have to do anything but raid or it catering to hardcores because all they like to do is raid so it really just depends on how you interpret it. To me, based off this community WOD was an expansion for hardcore playerbase because they cry about doing anything outside of raiding, while "casuals" like doing shit outside of raiding

[Deleted]

Hardcore have millions of gold, casuals don't so pay for subs.

[PassingBy]

The scenario is a single player content.
You may say what you want, but you do require a certain ilvl to do some of the challenges.

It doesn't make sense to gate the single player content behind ilvl higher than is obtainable via single player content.

If blizz were not morons - they would've made these scenarios use a stat template like pvp.
Disable the artifacts and put everyone at the even playing field.

For whatever reason blizz decided to make the scenario about your gear level, not skill.
Yes I've spent quite some time on the encounter before actually finishing it. Being ~910 ilvl helped. Some RNG going my way helped too.

I am pretty sure I wouldn't be able to do it if I was 870 or 880.
There might be some really exeptional players that can do it at 870. I am not one of them that's for sure.


As far as catering to "casuals" goes - blizz made a rather nice system.
We have the mythic raiding and higher lvl mythic + for the hardcore.

And we have all the lower difficulty stuff for people with less time to spend on the game.

In the end everyone has something to do and can enjoy the content considering their skill level and time at their hands.

The legendary RNG and artifact grindiness are a bit too much for my taste, but they've managed to balance the whole hardcore vs casual thing pretty nice if you ask me.

[chipwood]

While it's true they are minority. And they shouldn't cater for mythic raiders imo. They should at least try and make people do some content, instead of giving everything for free/trivial instantly and let them progress naturally.

"Making" people do content is the best possible way to lose your casual playerbase.

[ls-]

While it's true they are minority. And they shouldn't cater for mythic raiders imo. They should at least try and make people do some content, instead of giving everything for free/trivial instantly and let them progress naturally.

IIRC, Blizz admitted that "making people do some content" was one of their early mistakes, they thought that players would step up to a challenge, a.k.a. git gud, however, they found out that your average Joe simply ignored challenging content till it's trivialised via overgearing, and if everything was kinda challenging and there's nothing else to do, average Joe simply quit.

[Moozart]

Why is Blizzard always catering to the casual player base? I get that people don't have the time to invest into a game comparing to the hardcore player base, but it makes the hardcore player base irrelevant when nerfs come into play. You have to balance between them two, not only focus on one player base type.

I've seen it already nerfs regarding the kruul artifact challenge. It was done twice, perhaps triple times (Might missed one) and the question is: Why?
Its a Challenge end of story. People state that you need the specific item level to do it. No? I've seen dozen of times where even 920 ilvl players had to do the challenge 80 times give or take less/more. Please stop the BS complaining and think of this challenge as GOAL, a journey, on what do you need to conquer it.

Maybe you do not understand how the games work? the "casuals" are the ones that make up the majority of the player base (Blizz even stated this in a blue post recently) If it were not for these "casuals" paying $15 a month there is a good chance WoW would not even be going right now. It would be wise to remember that.

Post like these make me think of how the rich treat the middle/lower classes, Not stopping to think what would happen if they were all gone.

[kamuimac]

LOL majority of WoW Reddit, WoW forums and everywhere else in 4.3 Cata, MoP and WoD - waaaah there is no content to do. "I ran around Tanaan jungle, scooped up a full set of welfare and skipped 2 entire raid tiers now there is no content to do! I hate HFC"

Or "I hate dragon soul for 1 year lol, I did end time heroics and now have a full set of 378 and skipped t11/t12 lol pleb raids"

Or "lol 2/2 SoO free 540's (btw lol earlier tiers I just skipped) bloody 14 month SoO content drought!"

That's why this game is all about patch cycles now instead of a constant player base who stick around playing and progressing - because you don't have to. You log in, do your junk in 2 weeks then peace out for the next patch. Obviously if you raid bigger your sticking around longer, but as people keep telling me - that is a raiding minority so who cares about them.

Blizzard lucked out big time tho to salvage the decreasing playerbase, they probably hired a professional psychologist/medical dude who knows about dopamines and reward structures, hence the RNG lottery machines in Legion to keep people happy farming the same stuff.

you are mistaking "causals" with complete "addicts" - hell im adiccted to wow to the point of playing it for 13 years and never visited wows reddedit -_- those who go there are real hardcore junkies

casuals dont give a single f... about sites liek redit or mmochamp - they play the game instead whining on forums