Arena ruined PvP

[Kagthul]

I wonder why so many other PvP games are so successful then?

How fast do people in LoL, Call of Duty, Overwatch..... nah, nuh, nah, nah etc. There were ways to counter glass cannon specs even in vanilla.

"PvP Game" is not a genre. Shooters are a genre, MOBAs are a genre. RTS is a genre. Yes, you compete with other players in all of those types of games, but other than that, those different genres have NOTHING IN COMMON AT ALL.

You're trying to compare Apples to Cinderblocks.

Here is the biggest difference.

Going back to my coliseum model. I understand wanting to extend the length of fights.

Assume for a second you and I are equally skilled with a sword. We are thrown into a pit with a loin cloth and a rusty sword each, and are told to fight to the death. The fight would likely last long because of stamina, as we slowly whittle each other down. Blow after blow, injury after injury, etc etc. THAT is interesting/engaging.

Actually... no. As a guy who studies HEMA and has been re-enacting and doing full-contact LARPing for 25 years... no. Fights did NOT last a long time. a 30-60 second fight was quite lengthy. A lot of fights between unarmored opponents lasted seconds. The moment one person puts their weapon even a centimeter out of position, its over. You dont take wounds, you get killed.

Armored fighting is completely different, as most armors of any particular period were basically completely effective against the weapons of the day. A properly made riveted maile shirt basically makes your torso/arms/upper thighs invulnerable to most weapons of the day. Throw a brigandine over it and you're basically invulnerable to weapons all the way up to guns, and itll probably still save your life (if not protect you from all injury) even against all but the most modern of rifles.

So.. TLDR, your analogy is horribly flawed.

[Uoyredrum]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=15#post-287

Most people did it because it was fun. Having gear progression keeps people going no matter what aspect of the game we're discussing, the same exact thing would happen to dungeons, raiding, etc. In Legion people stopped doing arena because it's the worst balanced it's ever been, which is ironic considering they use templates for pvp stats now. Honestly, ever since Holinka was put in charge of PvP it's been awful and it continues to get worse.

Pretending like some random guy on the forums who made a post using anecdotal evidence to support his idiotic claims somehow validates your opinion is pretty amusing. Come up with some specific changes made because of arena that ruined the game or go away.

[Nuba]

A moba minigame in a mmorpg is competitive side of PVP. LOL.

DELETE ARENA.

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https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=15#post-283

you just linked a downvoted comment, because obviously people don't agree with you.

arena was supposed to be the skill-test side of PvP, because, if balanced correctly, it is the biggest skill test there is in the game.

I'm guessing either lack of ability in PvP or your desire to not see yourself as a "baddie" is what blinds you towards the truth

[nspeil]

you just linked a downvoted comment, because obviously people don't agree with you.

arena was supposed to be the skill-test side of PvP, because, if balanced correctly, it is the biggest skill test there is in the game.

Your lack of ability in PvP or your desire to not see yourself as a "baddie" is what blinds you towards the truth

Oh yea. How about blizzard VP's own words to prove it?

https://www.engadget.com/2009/11/13/...ere-a-mistake/

John Funk of WarCry recently interviewed Blizzard's VP of Game Design, Rob Pardo, about WoW's five-year anniversary, and he shed some light on a number of topics, including their total subscriber numbers (twice to three times as much as its current 12 million), what audience their new MMO is meant for, and what he thinks WoW's greatest successes were. But some other very interesting information came up when the interviewer asked what he thought WoW's biggest mistakes were.

He begins by saying that he wishes that the servers had been more stable at launch, and that there had been more of them, but he says that in terms of design, Arenas were the single biggest mistake in WoW's history.

[Nuba]

Just another point to back my view up a little, is that back in TBC and WOTLK people loved arena, both casuals and hardcore PvPers, and what made PvP bad (and, together with it, Arenas) has seven letters and started to destroy the game from within since the start of cataclysm:

[nspeil]

arenas are lowering the general quality of the game

That's right. Arena are also lowering the general quality of players as well. Lowest common denominator.

[Uoyredrum]

Oh yea. How about blizzard VP's own words to prove it?

https://www.engadget.com/2009/11/13/...ere-a-mistake/

How does one developer's opinion prove your point at all? There's no nuance or context to that statement. You're just linking random snippets because you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's right. Arena are also lowering the general quality of players as well. Lowest common denominator.

I'm sure insulting an entire part of the playerbase will get your point across.

[nspeil]

How does one developer's opinion prove your point at all? There's no nuance or context to that statement. You're just linking random snippets because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I believe all devs own that opinion. Think why 5v5 was removed in this expansion.

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Wow two greatest mistakes: Arena and LFR

[Nuba]

Oh yea. How about blizzard VP's own words to prove it?

https://www.engadget.com/2009/11/13/...ere-a-mistake/

that is the exact same guy that strongly believed, back in 2009, that E-sports were not going to be a thing, and that he didn't want WoW to be a competitive game, but rather a casual game.
The completely missguided title just prooves you are so bad at life that you even lack the ability to read texts (and simply try to read only titles), as the dev said he thought arenas were a mistake because he didn't want WoW PvP to become as competitive as it did, because he disliked competition and competitivity and thought it had no place in his MMO.

[nspeil]

that is the exact same guy that strongly believed, back in 2009, that E-sports were not going to be a thing, and that he didn't want WoW to be a competitive game, but rather a casual game.

E-sports were a thing. The height of War3 and SC was before 2009.

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People play MMO because they hate e-sports.

[Nuba]

E-sports were a thing. The height of War3 and SC was before 2009.

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People play MMO because they hate e-sports.

now you're just strongly forcing it. I am going to take this response as a failed attempt of writing down "ok, I am completely lost and have no more arguments, I concede"

[Deleted]

Akrios summed it up pretty good in his farewell post. A good read i think.

"Formal Farewell posted by Akrios on July 25th, 2010 Let me preface this by apologizing for not posting sooner. I’m also sorry if the following isn’t something you’re interested in, but it’s just my personal thoughts and feelings summing up my experiences revolving around the game. Some of this is from an article I drafted but never posted a few months ago. I haven’t been posting any of the comments that you might find in some of the articles under my name.
What am I doing now?
So as most of you have probably assumed, I’m essentially finished with the game, and have been for a while now. I never “quit”, which I always found ridiculous for people to say. Quitting makes it sound like an addiction. I played because I enjoyed playing, and I gradually lost interest. Since about last summer, I began playing more and more casually until I simply didn’t log on at all.
There’s a lot of reasons for this. Personally, I’m kind of moving on in life from wanting to sink a lot of time into gaming, my interests have just gradually changed.The game itself has also changed and become undeniably worse than it was in the past, both from a raw gameplay and game experience standpoint and from a community standpoint (I’ll detail my thoughts on this below).
The Decline of the WoW Community and its Understanding of PvP
When I refer to this, I’m not just talking about numbers, but about attitude. Maybe I personally changed, but over the course of this expansion I felt I witnessed a really decaying community that both didn’t understand what used to make this game good, and didn’t really help make the game more fun. What really made the game for me was the people I interacted with, and this had become abysmal.
One of the things that made me realize how much the pvp community specifically had changed was the reception I saw when Drakedog 9 was released.
Here’s my take on that video. The editing was incredible, first and foremost, from Vurtne. You can tell a lot of time and effort went into it and it shows. The video looks and feels beautiful, even if you forget the PvP content itself. It flows extremely well. It’s not the best editing I’ve ever seen but it’s comparable to the highest caliber of PvP video editing.
The content itself is world PvP. Having made a world PvP video in this expansion, I know how tremendously hard it is to find content, but Drakedog did, and having managed to do so is really a testament to him wanting to make the best product. Arena clips are vastly easier to procure, with some effort a solid arena video can be finished in a month; a mediocre one in a week; an unedited one in a few days. The content itself was solid, exciting 1vn that demonstrates control.
What was the reaction of most? People hating on world PvP. Really? What the fuck? You may say that this is just one video and you can’t base your views of the whole community on just one example, but what this critique leads me to is a deeper understanding that a large percentage of WoW’s current player base has no fucking idea what this game was and why it was so good. That epic PvP encounter in the roaming world, a random battle behind some mystifying scenery that will only happen once, where the only reward is pride. World PvP is WoW as a game, as a memorable experience. And THIS was one of people’s biggest complaints about the video. Players who have no idea what world PvP, is who would prefer a scripted arena match that can be decided before the gates open. I love(d) arena but it can NEVER be seen in the same light as world PvP to me. It’s just not the same experience and 99 percent of the time doesn’t even come close.
Things used to be much different. I felt like I was gearing my character and spending the time and practicing to become better so that I could kick ass when that moment came, whether in dueling or in world PvP or even in Arena.
But at this point in WoW? People blindly accept that arena is synonamous with PvP and Skill, and they are happy to sit idling in Dalaran until their partners log on, and are willing to call this a game. You can blame Blizzard all you want for ruining wow, but the community let it happen and gradually accepted it, and what hope is there for the game to improve when the community doesn’t even know what the problem is.
A lot of players who never played before WOTLK have no understanding of this game or its potential depth. They are told that 3v3 arena is all that matters in understanding skill and they follow this idea pretty blindly.
This all leads me down another path of thought. People talking about skill who have no fucking idea what skill is or what they are talking about.
This isn’t really a new trend but it’s one that has expanded greatly. You have this entire segment of the player base that only see this game through arena and arena ratings and gear scores. A lot of these players are elitists, and they don’t even know why. A big reason is that they emulate what they see from peers I suppose. These are the players that base skill entirely on meaningless arena rating. Not on reaction time, timing, control, movement, consistency, coordination, but arena rating.
So here’s a quick explanation of top level arena in WoW and how it relates to skill, because I think a lot of people don’t understand this. Skill is not the major factor in success in WoW arena. It may have been in BC, or even earlier in WOTLK, but as the expansion has progressed, what determines your success in arena is moreso the following factors:
What Comp Do you Play? What class do you play? What Spec do you Play?
Since the inception of arena, this has always been true to a certain degree, but in the past (TBC) skilled players could overcome the fact they were playing a weaker comp or spec or even class in arena. Today? Look at the trends of beast cleave or wizard cleaves. Want to succeed as a rogue? Make an RLS. I played RLS early this season for less than a week and barely knowing the comp got 2750+ mmr with cirranis who clicks out of his spellbook and shoewhistle, an alt warlock. I exaggerate because they are both competent players, but the key is certainly the comp. I’m fairly certain I could play with any competent RLS and succeed at the moment. I think any two decent healers and a warrior can achieve ratings for the same reasons that DK/Pally dominated 2s early in the expansion.
Is skill a factor? Yes, but what’s much more important than that is the people you play with and the classes you play with. Which brings me to my next point in this rant.
The Other Big Factor in Success in Arena is Who you Know in WoW and Who you Play with
You know what’s more important than skill in this game? Playing with the most well connected players and socially networking with them. When I was looking around to get sponsored in the past, I got a first hand look at what it took. Step one is be friends with other people who are sponsored. If you are not, you will almost certainly not succeed. That’s it. If you aren’t good friends with the handful of sponsored players, don’t expect to do anything unless you can qualify for that once a year tournament realm, and can find the right comp and committed players for it which can be almost impossible.
Look at the example of EG tryouts last year. Myself, perplexity, scythe, and litreacola were all passed up in recruitment in favor of a rogue named smatin. Not even speaking for myself, but smatin was a pile of shit compared to any of the other rogues I mentioned, but since he was friends with tenderloin (eg’s shaman at the time to replace kollectiv), he was selected.
That’s just a single example, but I’m sure many players trying to break into top pvp can attest that who you know is much more important than how well you play. You can argue that WoW is an MMO and social aspects are part of this, but I still think that skill should be the most important factor in your success in arena. Unforunately, it is far from it. This is one of the big reasons I no longer care about WoW, because I don’t want to spend time wandering around guilds and ventrilos trying to find a good resto shaman just to succeed.
Some Final Thoughts
Now don’t let the above rant fool you, most of that was written in frustration a few months ago. The game obviously wasn’t all bad. As lame as this may sound, I learned a lot about people and life and had countless amounts of fun playing on and off over the years. At its best WoW was an engrossing experience and I feel like it had a lot to offer.
I probably had the most fun in this game making videos, it was a unique experience and it let me be creative. I made them because I enjoyed making them, BUT I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE FOR THEIR SUPPORT! I’ve had a ton of support both with videos and this site over the years, and I hope that I’ve been of some help and offered you some entertainment along the way.
Although I’ve always tried to keep my personal life separate from gaming, I will mention that things are going really well for me. I never felt that WoW stopped me from having a social life and that this was just a myth because so many gamers are social disasters, but it was a time investment and it did affect my lifestyle. Since I moved away from playing over this past year I’ve been going to the gym 4-5 times a week, done better in academics, smoked a lot less weed (although you might argue this isn’t a good thing), and I’ve gone from meaningless one nighters to more meaningful things. On the off chance you care, life is good.
So thanks for the support along the way, and helping to make my personal experience with the game more than it would have been. I don’t know what I’ll be doing next in terms of gaming, or if I’ll ever come back, I may continue to update the site intermittently regardless.
Thank you and good luck."

And this was 7 years ago..

[Kagthul]

you just linked a downvoted comment, because obviously people don't agree with you.

arena was supposed to be the skill-test side of PvP, because, if balanced correctly, it is the biggest skill test there is in the game.

I'm guessing either lack of ability in PvP or your desire to not see yourself as a "baddie" is what blinds you towards the truth

.... Horrigan leads one of the best PvP guilds in the US. He's been playing (with the same guild) since the original Beta (when Bleeding Hollow was Eastern PvP Beta).

He's extremely qualified to offer his opinion on PvP. His guild is also extremely successful in other genres as well (FPS and MOBAs, and other MMOs including EVE and Planetside 1/2). He knows what he's talking about.

The problem with your "argument" is that it assumes there is only one metric of "skill" in PvP - deathmatch.

This is absurd on its face.

I have led successful wining BGs where we got our asses kicked in. But because i outmaneuvered the enemy team, back-capped nodes that they left weak, etc, we won - sometimes by a landslide.

Not all PvP skill is measured in LOLDETHMATCHBAWKS.

Some people like tactical challenges (Arena), others like strategic challenges (most BGs), and some like a little mix of both (some of the BGs have a fairly even mix).

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now you're just strongly forcing it. I am going to take this response as a failed attempt of writing down "ok, I am completely lost and have no more arguments, I concede"

....

.......

learning to read wouldn't hurt.

Learning to realize you havent presented a worthwhile counter-argument might help too.

[Nuba]

.... Horrigan leads one of the best PvP guilds in the US. He's been playing (with the same guild) since the original Beta (when Bleeding Hollow was Eastern PvP Beta).

He's extremely qualified to offer his opinion on PvP. His guild is also extremely successful in other genres as well (FPS and MOBAs, and other MMOs including EVE and Planetside 1/2). He knows what he's talking about.

The problem with your "argument" is that it assumes there is only one metric of "skill" in PvP - deathmatch.

This is absurd on its face.

I have led successful wining BGs where we got our asses kicked in. But because i outmaneuvered the enemy team, back-capped nodes that they left weak, etc, we won - sometimes by a landslide.

Not all PvP skill is measured in LOLDETHMATCHBAWKS.

Some people like tactical challenges (Arena), others like strategic challenges (most BGs), and some like a little mix of both (some of the BGs have a fairly even mix).

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....

.......

learning to read wouldn't hurt.

Learning to realize you havent presented a worthwhile counter-argument might help too.

first things first, I don't care if you think the guy is or is not worth of having its opinion analized it was a bad comment made by him, straight up.
Second, despite being a 2500+ multi class whos also a 2700 Gladiator, I prefer BGs a bilion times over arenas, but we have to admit that character control and self-knowledge comes from arenas and not from BGs. BGs are fun, and so WAS (isn't anymore, thanks to shitlinka) world PvP, but winning BGs most of the times have nothing to do with knowing your own class and having total control over your character.

I actually only did arena hardcore-ish to get dem awesome-mounts (even today if I afk in some random place in orgrimmar or dalaran, I'll come back to 10+ people around me targeting me looking at the mount nobody else has, the feeling is actually pretty good), but I assume I would've rather just have played BGs if there was a way to "test myself" in BGs but there sadly isn't, even Hero or High Warlord nowadays doesn't come close to what Gladiator is.
This being said I changed a lot since I tryharded my ass off on Arenas, and would never have commited so much of myself on getting those fancy mounts nowadays.

However, and this is the big point, Arenas indeed are the way people test themselves and being good at arena should be the hardcore end-goal because lets face it, that is how you get to know if a person is good or not.

The whole "Arena vs BGs and world PvP" thing makes no sense, because its like "working and earning money vs spending money". Arena PvP should be about competition, so it obviously should have the better rewards (and it has), however I don't think it should cause detriment of BGs and World PvP as it did, but in that you can also blame Holinka for being a shit dev.

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Coming back to WoW after wotlk left a bad taste in my mouth, because 7 years I thought "games evolved a lot, and seeing blizzards posts seems like wow evolved as much" to see all this crap that has become of WoW and how PvP actually became much worse after all these 7 years of "improvement".
No solo Rated BGs, less ways of getting the coolest mounts in the game (2v2 and 5v5 removed, which caused arenas to become "super elitized"), less rewards for playing arenas and BGs, no rewards or reasons AT ALL for playing random BGs (my favorite thing, I'm actually a Battlemaster btw)... And the worst thing I have ever seen added to the game: Artifact Power farm, WoW actually walked backwards.

[Aleax]

I like that the game offers more than dungeons and raids. This is so much GG, that I prefer WoW over other games. I like that many games are unified into one game.

So I do like bg, rbg, open-world PvP and arenas being in the mix even if I don't arenas now, yeah they want us to pvp in their other games now, but I don't want to.

Will probably quit WoW completly if PvP is definetely killed here.
I dislike this comedy game that is HearthStone, and the other Blizzard games, so this will be for good.

[Kagthul]

first things first, I don't care if you think the guy is or is not worth of having its opinion analized it was a bad comment made by him, straight up.

... you are not the arbiter of what is or is not a good comment. Logic is. What he is saying is both logical and provable. The facts support it. Your support is ... your opinion.

Second, despite being a 2500+ multi class whos also a 2700 Gladiator, I prefer BGs a bilion times over arenas, but we have to admit that character control and self-knowledge comes from arenas and not from BGs.

... no we dont. You insisting that is true does not make it true. I'm perfectly good at controlling my character. I've literally never played Arena seriously. Maybe 30 games, ever. For CQ.

BGs are fun, and so WAS (isn't anymore, thanks to shitlinka) world PvP, but winning BGs most of the times have nothing to do with knowing your own class and having total control over your character.

Which has nothing to do with wether or not they require PvP skill or not. Deathmatch skill is not the only PvP skill.

~irrelevant anecdotal self-aggrandizing info snipped~

However, and this is the big point, Arenas indeed are the way people test themselves and being good at arena should be the hardcore end-goal because lets face it, that is how you get to know if a person is good or not.

No, it's how you know wether or not someone is good at Team Death Match. It has no bearing one wether or not someone is skilled in any other PvP scenarios.

The whole "Arena vs BGs and world PvP" thing makes no sense, because its like "working and earning money vs spending money". Arena PvP should be about competition, so it obviously should have the better rewards (and it has),

Obvious to.... you? By what logic? You're not making a cogent argument. You're talking as if one of your opiions (Only Arena is relevant) is a decided upon fact. It isn't. You cant base your argument on an opinion and logically reach a conclusion.

And... Arena's dont have better rewards than other PvP. Rated BGs can get you the same rewards, and even randos can Titanforge gear that is just as good as rated players can earn. Yay RNG systems.

however I don't think it should cause detriment of BGs and World PvP as it did, but in that you can also blame Holinka for being a shit dev.

Its been doing damage to BGs and wPvP since the very first day it was implemented... a LOT longer than Holinka has been relevant in any way.

Coming back to WoW after wotlk left a bad taste in my mouth, because 7 years I thought "games evolved a lot, and seeing blizzards posts seems like wow evolved as much" to see all this crap that has become of WoW and how PvP actually became much worse after all these 7 years of "improvement".
No solo Rated BGs, less ways of getting the coolest mounts in the game (2v2 and 5v5 removed, which caused arenas to become "super elitized"), less rewards for playing arenas and BGs, no rewards or reasons AT ALL for playing random BGs (my favorite thing, I'm actually a Battlemaster btw)... And the worst thing I have ever seen added to the game: Artifact Power farm, WoW actually walked backwards.

Most of this i agree with, particularly the AP farm and the sham of "gear not mattering anymore" when it matters almost exactly as much as it did in previous xpacs. And Templates are a completely failed concept. They STILL have to re-tune individual abilities after every template change, anyway.... so they should have just left the templates on the cutting room floor and individually tuned each ability differently (which they are doing anyway) and updated the tooltips to reflect how they are different from PvE to PvP.

[Nuba]

its not an "opinion" that arena is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact. Denying it won't make it less true.

BGs are fun, world PvP was fun, but arena is a skill test. people dont play arena because "arenas are fun", people play arena because they "enjoy competing" and in case of WoW, that competition is Arena.

Arena is a side game on WoW. I actually believe there should be cool cosmetic rewards that have absolutely nothing to do with arena in BG PvPs and maybe even other forms of PvP, cool rotating mounts (vicious mounts are shit and boring) like arenas flying mounts, cool looking gear, tabards and so onwards. This doesn't make me think Arenas shouldn't exist, just that Blizzard sucks at making other forms of PvP enjoyable.

[nspeil]

its not an "opinion" that arena is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact. Denying it won't make it less true.

That is your false opinion. I would say cutting edge is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact. Denying it won't make it less true

BGs are fun, world PvP was fun, but arena is a skill test. people dont play arena because "arenas are fun", people play arena because they "enjoy competing" and in case of WoW, that competition is Arena.

It is always an mistake.

Arena is a side game on WoW. I actually believe there should be cool cosmetic rewards that have absolutely nothing to do with arena in BG PvPs and maybe even other forms of PvP, cool rotating mounts (vicious mounts are shit and boring) like arenas flying mounts, cool looking gear, tabards and so onwards. This doesn't make me think Arenas shouldn't exist, just that Blizzard sucks at making other forms of PvP enjoyable.

It is not a side game. It is a minigame. PVP should never bribe you for anything.
That is wrong since your fucking minigame ruins this game.

[Kagthul]

its not an "opinion" that arena is the only relevant skill-testing factor in WoW PvP, it is a fact.

How is it a fact? Because you said so? That doesn't make it real. Facts are things that can be proven with logic and testing. They have corresponding evidence to back them up. You have provided literally NOTHING other than your say-so.

I dont think skill in Arena means shit. If im putting together an RBG team, or even just a team for randos....

Ill skip 9 2900+ trybads for 9 people who will listen to me.

Ill also have a 90+% win rate with my team, because while you guys are trying to fit your deathmatch skills into BGs, well be playing the objectives and kicking your ass up between your arrogant ears.

Denying it won't make it less true.

....

.......

Lulz.

BGs are fun, world PvP was fun, but arena is a skill test. people dont play arena because "arenas are fun", people play arena because they "enjoy competing" and in case of WoW, that competition is Arena.

Yeah, and we're seeing how many people actually "enjoy" that competition these days.

Smallest ladder EVER. Because the rewards were removed.

Arena is a side game on WoW.

Not even a side-game. its barely even a mini-game. PvP as a whole was, until Legion, what the majority of the entire WoW playerbase did as endgame content, and was a pretty integral part of the game.

I actually believe there should be cool cosmetic rewards that have absolutely nothing to do with arena in BG PvPs and maybe even other forms of PvP,

You mean... like the mounts that come from Prestige?

cool rotating mounts (vicious mounts are shit and boring) like arenas flying mounts, cool looking gear, tabards and so onwards. This doesn't make me think Arenas shouldn't exist, just that Blizzard sucks at making other forms of PvP enjoyable.

I've never said Arena shouldn't exist. You're making shit up.

I've said that focusing solely on Arena as the only balance point has ruined other forms of PvP.

One does not imply the other.

[Deleted]

No, arena didnt ruin PvP. Thats your opinion that you make it show like a fact. Which is not. You see i also made it appear like a fact. Ok enough of this lets go to some arguments.

First of all i spent time and actually read your points as also the points of others in this thread. (i will not comment on the "1vs1 always melee should win scenario" as it appears that outside WoW you are not into many RPGs with the exception that according to your imagination all 1v1 matches are taking place in some elevator room where with two fat guyes in the room the last will have no place for other.

Firstly one of the purposes of existance of the Arena is to let your class show some skill in an instanced PvP scenario without the retarted ZERG of the WSG or the retarted aoe-win. Yes. Skill. PvE is not skill. Like it or not, you are dealing with NPC Bosses who are killed using certain tactics to oppose certain mechanics. And thats the end. Ok dress it with some lore, some fancy bosses, Beautiful areas and thats it. And of course powerful loot which is the second argument.

Lootwise now, yes Arena back in TBC offered quick and easy epics. I remember raiding with some merciless felweave back then. Another sarcastic person here (who i am sure never passed 1500 pr) said shadowbolt, shadowbolt, gg. And then he died and blamed healer. But all of you who say "yea all go Arena for loot nothing more" is PvE any better??? Dont tell me all people who got to Karazhan, Grull....even ICC went there just for the lore to slay Arthas and not for the loot. Or lets not forget the absolutely retarded gearscore check in Wotlk in order to join a raid. 90% of people who goes for a raid goes firstly and i dare to say a big percentage of them, ONLY for the loot. World Quests fall in the same category.

Toxicity. Toxicity is everywhere. From the paladin who dares to roll on offspec, to the duo who steps in 2v2s and gets kited by the "unkillable caster". Really, at least when i am chain cced in Arena i have the guts to say that i may sucked in the last match and had to use my spell lock more carefully. I will not blame arena or the other combo for me playing noobish.

Guyes if you prefer Ashran style, to go elephant races thats ok. Just dont state it like you are the right and the others who disagree are dump.