United States of America - World Police or World Saviour

[Ghostpanther]

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The NATO shouldn't exist. It is a shackle upon the European people.

I think the members of it would disagree. And they have a lot of members. But it would be less expensive for the US since we spend close to 72% of it's budget. So it would not be a negative thing for us if they did disband it.

[Deleted]

Hoooold it there buddy, there only place you find anything even CLOSE to a "consent" of that kind, is in certain political circles. While I don't hate americans on general principles like Elba (seems) to do, I'd be very happy to see the US get the fuck out of Europe and STAY out. And I am in no way alone in that, so kindly don't claim a consent, because that doesn't exist, for EITHER side.

Elba seems to hate everyone that is not German. He wants to invade his neighbours and the "big bad USA" doesn't let him.

[Skroe]

We are not. We are slaves to American military, economic and cultural dominance. It is humiliating. How can you want to live like a vassal? A thrall?

How do I put this simply.

Germany started a war of aggression against the entire world.

Germany lost that war of agression against the union of the enormous country in the East, the Globe-spanning empire that was based on an island offshore, and the World's most powerful and richest country (even then) from across the Ocean.

Germany lost a total war it started. And losing wars has consequences.


Germany is no American thrall. It is among America's most valued and most important partners. It is the de facto leader of Europe. But though a powerful western country, it will never again be the undisputed Western power as it briefly was. It will always be at best, second in that regard to the greater power across the ocean. Losing it's stature was a consequence of losing the wars. That is fair.

The US and Germany have an equal partnership. But make no mistake: the fact there is a Germany is because our Grandparents and Great Grandparents were merciful to the vanquished. They didn't have to be. Some didn't want to be. But they were. You should not be "thankful" for that. But you should recognize that history has given Germany a second chance... one that some of the time thought it didn't deserve. And it's used it very, very well. So why would you want to squander it?

[Slant]

Yes, we gave them up because we were forced to through threat from America.

Nope. Read up on the treaty, learn your own fucking history. That treaty was made between West and East Germany. The allied forces pretty much just nodded to it and that's how it was done. The claims that Germany gave up in the East were a concession West Germany has made to ensure everyone that the soon to be reunited Germany wouldn't use the incident later to start another war again. This is a direct reference to Hitler who used the Versailles Treaty after WW1 to spin his "Germany was betrayed and exploited" agenda. Germany offered this, voluntarily. And for all of that, we got people like you to feed through. Don't make us regret taking the shitshow that the GDR was back into the fold and spoonfeeding you money until you resemble something of a modern industrial region.

And don't get me started now, because I still pay the fucking solidarity tax for you guys to this day. I'd say that pretty much gives me the right to tell you to shut up now.

[Skroe]

I am surprised Themius is not infracted for trolling with all these baits in this thread.
There's a point where circle-jerking and nationbashing everyone else overlaps.


That would make it still not your concern.
But hey, better bomb the shit out of them quickly because there's a chance they might take a political stance you dislike!
Everything is justified, right? As long as you manage to destroy any opposition.
.

All I have to say is: that's freakin nuts. You would, as a policymaker, let your country get so surrounded by a hostile, aggressive power?

Insane. Absolutely insane.

[Elba]

If you live like a vassal, it's because you are imprisoned in your own lack of education. I am a free man. My generation has been more free than any previous generation in this country. And their military dominance is an asset to us. Any US vehicle you see here, any tank, any truck, any plane you see land here with the US military emblems on it? ALL of those are here as our guests, allies and friends. They're here, because we like them to be here and because they like to be here. They can feel safe here, so safe in fact, that they built their main coordination whatsthename for the AMEA region here. When they have soldiers hurt in the middle east, they fly them out to Germany. That's how much they value us.

Never EVER assume they are more than guests. But also never assume that there are any other countries outside Europe that get the same preferential treatment as they do. And people like you are literally embarassing us in front of our guests every day. So stop it and grow up.

But they are not guests. You just think they are guests. What happens when you no longer want them as guests but they disagree?

You live under the illusion that American influence in Europe is dependent on European consent. It isn't. If we say no they could say fuck you and still park their shiny vehicles in your country. And nothing we could do about it.

America is here to stay in Europe. We have no choice in this matter. That is not freedom.

[Slant]

Hoooold it there buddy, there only place you find anything even CLOSE to a "consent" of that kind, is in certain political circles. While I don't hate americans on general principles like Elba (seems) to do, I'd be very happy to see the US get the fuck out of Europe and STAY out. And I am in no way alone in that, so kindly don't claim a consent, because that doesn't exist, for EITHER side.

Ok, so you think we're vassals of the US, too? Have you read his posts? Compared to the junk he writes, Europe is very much in consent about that. And the US is out of Europe as an occupational force. They're here as guests.

[Skroe]

I think the members of it would disagree. And they have a lot of members. But it would be less expensive for the US since we spend close to 72% of it's budget. So it would not be a negative thing for us if they did disband it.

Dead wrong. NATO is a foundation of US global power.

What's with you alt-righties. We have 28 allies that are the richest, most technologically advanced countries in the world... that pay for and provide access to land, weapons and technology that enables America's global reach. And more than anything else, they offer their friendly, legitimacy and support. And you treat them like something disposable?

You do realize that Russia or China would kill for what we have and you take for granted?

Our allies are invaluable. We don't need their stuff. That's icing on the cake. We need _them_. We're all stronger together.

[dicertification]

It's funny because Canada for example. Canadians on this forum love to trash talk america's presence in the world. As you say calling us world police but they have no problem with their country benefiting from our military. Especially since they just got their military budget so low.

I'm sorry don't generalize Canadians from a few statements. Or I'd have to have only negative opinions of Americans if I was to generalize them based on mmo posts. Most productive people aren't on these forums, and they are the ones with the opinions that make a difference.

[Themius]

The one that spends more on it's military than the next five on the list, but can't be bothered to give its citizens proper healthcare, free education or actual democracy?

We seriously have money issues as we need to cut spending somewhere, but how can we simply suddenly scale back our military when we are everywhere all over the world? We are both expected to mind our own business, but quickly hop to action if something happens. No matter where it happens.

[Independent voter]

But they are not guests. You just think they are guests. What happens when you no longer want them as guests but they disagree?

Anytime US troops stationed in Germany is brought up in the US, like 80% of the population asks why are we spending so much money on Germany, bring the troops back home.

So you have many, many allies in the US. You should form some kind of German US organization to bring the US troops home.

[Zecora]

Ok, so you think we're vassals of the US, too? Have you read his posts? Compared to the junk he writes, Europe is very much in consent about that. And the US is out of Europe as an occupational force. They're here as guests.

Don't stick words in my mouth. I think the US is a bad influence that Europe could do very well without. You're free to call them guests if you want, but a lot of us never invited them, and can't wait to see the back of them.

[Slant]

But they are not guests. You just think they are guests. What happens when you no longer want them as guests but they disagree?

You live under the illusion that American influence in Europe is dependent on European consent. It isn't. If we say no they could say fuck you and still park their shiny vehicles in your country. And nothing we could do about it.

America is here to stay in Europe. We have no choice in this matter. That is not freedom.

Technically, we just cancel the lease and they move their equipment out of the airbases they have here. And then we... let it sit there, because nobody knows what to do with an ex-US airbase. We'll probably turn it into an event area for open air concerts and shit...

How can I say this, you ask? Because we've seen it happen already. When the GDR joined West Germany, the USSR troops just packed up and left. No shot fired, no debate. They just picked their stuff and fucked off to the East. That's how the real world works. You should try it, it's a lot more fun than the stories you keep spinning in your head.

The big question, however, is... why would we ask them to leave? They behave rather well, cause no trouble and I get to talk to the odd US soldier that got hooked in Germany and remained here after service due to marriage or because he simply liked it here...

[Zecora]

We seriously have money issues as we need to cut spending somewhere, but how can we simply suddenly scale back our military when we are everywhere all over the world? We are both expected to mind our own business, but quickly hop to action if something happens. No matter where it happens.

Go ahead, stop meddling in the rest of the world. The world won't mind. Use those funds to provide some proper healthcare and a decent social safety net for your citizens. Y'know, things that pretty much every western country but the US has.

[Slant]

Don't stick words in my mouth. I think the US is a bad influence that Europe could do very well without. You're free to call them guests if you want, but a lot of us never invited them, and can't wait to see the back of them.

Then you're a minority. A very small minority. You can join Elba.

[Skroe]

Hoooold it there buddy, there only place you find anything even CLOSE to a "consent" of that kind, is in certain political circles. While I don't hate americans on general principles like Elba (seems) to do, I'd be very happy to see the US get the fuck out of Europe and STAY out. And I am in no way alone in that, so kindly don't claim a consent, because that doesn't exist, for EITHER side.

In addition to what Slant said, the US "getting the fuck out of Europe" wouldn't change anything really. It would just alter our approach. More long range weapon/bombers/aircraft. Island building. Building bases in what friendly countries their are.

Many countries have told us to hit the bricks over the decades. It's never stopped us from doing whatever it is that we wanted. We always manage to find an alternative.

And you should also consider this: being our host gives you a degree of veto power over us you would not have. Consider Turkey. Back in 2003, Turkey didn't let the US use its territory as a staging ground for the invasion of Iraq as requested by us. The US invaded through the south and through air. Turkey only allowed the US to later use its territory as a logistics stop-over point after extracting certain understanding and deals.

[Aeula]

America is only on top because they pushed everyone else down. Naturally that breeds resentment, especially when they start to throw their weight around.

[Elba]

The big question, however, is... why would we ask them to leave? They behave rather well, cause no trouble and I get to talk to the odd US soldier that got hooked in Germany and remained here after service due to marriage or because he simply liked it here...

Cause no trouble? They cause trouble all over the globe, create terrorism and we get targeted by said terrorists because we are their servants.

Every single Islamic terrorist attack in Europe is the direct fault of America. Al-Qaeda and Isis are merely hornets. The yanks threw the nest through our window.

[Themius]

Don't stick words in my mouth. I think the US is a bad influence that Europe could do very well without. You're free to call them guests if you want, but a lot of us never invited them, and can't wait to see the back of them.

We are a bad influence?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :gasp: HAHAHAHAHAHHA.

No... we are a great influence on the world and a great deterrent to war. We live in times of relative peace thanks to the United States, and that is taken for granted. There isn't war in Asia, we are likely a deterrant to war between Pakistan and India. We are a wealthy nation, with some of the worlds smartest people as we have the best colleges in the world, and attract the best to our country from the world. We have made great advacenments, and have become the strongest country militarily and the most influential country via our culture.

American people are terribly warm and friendly most of the time, and usually it's not real it's just fake courtesy, but that's better I would say than some of the cold distant attitudes you can find in Europe. We are a diverse nation; however, our minorities are very very clearly represented from television, to government, and our issues are all out there for all to see BECAUSE people have a voice. We have true freedom of speech, and not this weird shit where you can be fined for calling someone a slur, or insulting their looks.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Is that really a benefit? Austria, Switzerland, Finland, Ireland, etc. seem to be doing just fine without the US dragging them into pointless expensive wars.

Its fairly easy to be "doing just fine" when your method of operation is to shove your head up your ass and let some other country deal with the worlds problems