What's the difference between Zionism and Rhodesia

[Elba]

Can't steal land from people who never owned it and who themselves stole it.

Palestinians lived there for thousands of years. The Israelis arrived from Europe a century ago. Israelis are immigrants.

[Kalis]

Palestinians lived there for thousands of years. The Israelis arrived from Europe a century ago. Israelis are immigrants.

I doubt the Turks would be too keen on your idea, otherwise Greece would get just about everywhere on the Turkish coastline.

And presumably the Greeks would get Alexandria in Egypt, not sure they'd want it though, it is a bit of a shithole.

[Elba]

I doubt the Turks would be too keen on your idea, otherwise Greece would get just about everywhere on the Turkish coastline.

And presumably the Greeks would get Alexandria in Egypt, not sure they'd want it though, it is a bit of a shithole.

Why would the Greeks get places back they stole from others thousands of years ago and then gave up hundreds of years ago?

The Palestinians are the oldest living occupants of Palestine. They have been continuously living there for thousands of years.

The Israelis arrived basically yesterday. People they stole the land from are still alive.

You are saying I can come to your house, kick you out and claim it as mine and you can or should do nothing about it.

[Kalis]

Why would the Greeks get places back they stole from others thousands of years ago and then gave up hundreds of years ago?

Who did the Greeks steal those places from? They did not give them up, they had them taken by force, which you seem to be saying is unacceptable in respect of Palestinians, so presumably you agree it is also unacceptable in respect of Greeks, otherwise people could accuse you of blatant hypocrisy.

The Palestinians are the oldest living occupants of Palestine. They have been continuously living there for thousands of years.

That is somewhat dubious.

Any attempt to use claims of historical birthright are complete bollocks, whether it be by Palestinians or Israelis. People have been kicking each other out of that region since historical records began. I have genetic markers that would give me a claim on that basis.

The Israelis arrived basically yesterday. People they stole the land from are still alive.

The Palestinians did not have the land, the Ottomans did. The British took it from the Ottomans and tried to reach a peaceful arrangement between the local Muslims and Jews, but unfortunately they could not get either side to agree to anything...shocking I know, considering how friendly they are to each other nowadays.

You are saying I can come to your house, kick you out and claim it as mine and you can or should do nothing about it.

You can try, but as I have the law on my side and they have the monopoly of force, you would not do very well.

[Puupi]

I am glad Rhodesia no longer exists and hope Israel will follow one day.

You are glad Rhodesia no longer exists....so are you glad that Zimbabwe does? Which one do you consider worse, Rhodesia or Zimbabwe?

[Macaquerie]

You are glad Rhodesia no longer exists....so are you glad that Zimbabwe does? Which one do you consider worse, Rhodesia or Zimbabwe?

Some perspective is needed here though - no matter how shitty Zimbabwe might be right now, life is still far better right now for the local population than it ever was under colonial rule. Maybe during the "good old days" there was a tiny white minority, never more than 5%, that enjoyed comfortable lifestyles, but that was built off the back of exploitation of native labor which was never going to be sustainable. The same goes for South Africa - the entire point of these colonies was for whites to monopolize resources without doing any work, were they actually white majority "ethnostates" their economies would have collapsed instantly.

[Spectral]

Palestinians lived there for thousands of years. The Israelis arrived from Europe a century ago. Israelis are immigrants.

This is just laughably false. Even the standard anti-Israeli propaganda gets the history of the region a bit closer to truth than that. No one even really conceived of a distinct "Palestinian" identity until it became a convenient anti-Zionist notion.

[Puupi]

Some perspective is needed here though - no matter how shitty Zimbabwe might be right now, life is still far better right now for the local population than it ever was under colonial rule. Maybe during the "good old days" there was a tiny white minority, never more than 5%, that enjoyed comfortable lifestyles, but that was built off the back of exploitation of native labor which was never going to be sustainable. The same goes for South Africa - the entire point of these colonies was for whites to monopolize resources without doing any work, were they actually white majority "ethnostates" their economies would have collapsed instantly.

But the other side of the coin is the perspective of how shitty Zimbabwe actually is. The native people were better off as exploited by white people in Rhodesia than they are "free" in Zimbabwe.

Rhodesia was shit, Zimbabwe is even worse.

[Elba]

You are glad Rhodesia no longer exists....so are you glad that Zimbabwe does? Which one do you consider worse, Rhodesia or Zimbabwe?

Zimbabwe is native ruled. Rhodesia wasn't. Go Zimbabwe.

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This is just laughably false. Even the standard anti-Israeli propaganda gets the history of the region a bit closer to truth than that. No one even really conceived of a distinct "Palestinian" identity until it became a convenient anti-Zionist notion.

So the land was just empty of people until early 20th century?

[satimy]

Why would the Greeks get places back they stole from others thousands of years ago and then gave up hundreds of years ago?

The Palestinians are the oldest living occupants of Palestine. They have been continuously living there for thousands of years.

The Israelis arrived basically yesterday. People they stole the land from are still alive.

You are saying I can come to your house, kick you out and claim it as mine and you can or should do nothing about it.

Almost all land has been fought over and stolen at one point

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Zimbabwe is native ruled. Rhodesia wasn't. Go Zimbabwe.

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So the land was just empty of people until early 20th century?

So you support native genocides as long as it's done by a native dictator?

[Macaquerie]

But the other side of the coin is the perspective of how shitty Zimbabwe actually is. The native people were better off as exploited by white people in Rhodesia than they are "free" in Zimbabwe.

Rhodesia was shit, Zimbabwe is even worse.

Zimbabwe is just a poorly managed state, Rhodesia was a country that actively sought to fuck over 95% of its population and in no way provided them with any useful services to speak of. In what way is that better?

[Elba]

Who did the Greeks steal those places from? They did not give them up, they had them taken by force, which you seem to be saying is unacceptable in respect of Palestinians, so presumably you agree it is also unacceptable in respect of Greeks, otherwise people could accuse you of blatant hypocrisy.

Egyptians? Ancient Anatolians? The Greeks came, took what wasn't theirs, got kicked out.

That is somewhat dubious.

Any attempt to use claims of historical birthright are complete bollocks, whether it be by Palestinians or Israelis. People have been kicking each other out of that region since historical records began. I have genetic markers that would give me a claim on that basis.

The Palestinians did not have the land, the Ottomans did. The British took it from the Ottomans and tried to reach a peaceful arrangement between the local Muslims and Jews, but unfortunately they could not get either side to agree to anything...shocking I know, considering how friendly they are to each other nowadays.

The Palestinians were under Ottoman rule. The British should have left it to the Palestinians. The Ottomans before should have left it to the Palestinians.

The Jews invaded from Europe. They should have stayed in their home countries and left it to the Palestinians.

You can try, but as I have the law on my side and they have the monopoly of force, you would not do very well.

Oh, this isn't about probability but morality. Stealing Palestinian land is good, but stealing your land is wrong?

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Almost all land has been fought over and stolen at one point

So, if others do something it automatically becomes right?

So you support native genocides as long as it's done by a native dictator?

What genocide?

[Puupi]

Zimbabwe is just a poorly managed state, Rhodesia was a country that actively sought to fuck over 95% of its population and in no way provided them with any useful services to speak of. In what way is that better?

At least Rhodesian government wasn't committing genocide and letting the people die of starvation.

[Elba]

At least Rhodesian government wasn't committing genocide and letting the people die of starvation.

What genocide? And isn't there a drought?

[Macaquerie]

At least Rhodesian government wasn't committing genocide and letting the people die of starvation.

The Rhodesian government was fighting a civil war for pretty much its entire existence as an independent country. I'm sure that keeping black civilians well fed was on the top of its list of priorities.

[Puupi]

What genocide? And isn't there a drought?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_Zimbabwe

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The Rhodesian government was fighting a civil war for pretty much its entire existence as an independent country. I'm sure that keeping black civilians well fed was on the top of its list of priorities.

..............?

They were feeding the civilians unlike Zimbabwe isn't.

[Techno-Druid]

Israel however is great, and hopefully its enemies are left buried in sand in the coming years. :3

I'm not really pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, but I believe that Israel should exist, not out of any necessity for a "Jewish State" but because we need more liberal democracies in the Middle East.

Of course, Israel has issues, racism against Ethiopian Jews as well a lot of discrimination against Arabs.

I wonder what @Connal has to say about this.

[Elba]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi

So civil war + fighting against collaborators. So what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_Zimbabwe

So some political cronyism? Happens everywhere.

[Theodarzna]

I'm not really pro-Israel or pro-Palestine, but I believe that Israel should exist, not out of any necessity for a "Jewish State" but because we need more liberal democracies in the Middle East.

Of course, Israel has issues, racism against Ethiopian Jews as well a lot of discrimination against Arabs.

I wonder what @Connal has to say about this.

I've always been fascinated by the history of the Israeli language and the Kibbitz movement. Israeli Hebrew in general is sort of the great exception that gives all other minority languages hope since the Israeli people took an effectively dead language and made it the native language of seven million+ people.

I'd fall into more a pro-Zionism camp then many. Admittedly an odd position for a self-declared Neo-Pagan with no real connection to Judaism.

[Macaquerie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gukurahundi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_Zimbabwe

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..............?

They were feeding the civilians unlike Zimbabwe isn't.

This is from a contemporary Guardian article:

Because they see the war as invented and run by Communists, they tend to believe that their blacks were happy and content in a white-dominated society. The briefest chat with an African reveals this to be untrue, but then most Rhodesian whites don't have conversations with Africans, except to give them orders.

However, it is easy to see how they have got hold of this idea. Rhodesian blacks are startlingly docile and even courtly. This gentility can be surprising. There is possibly nobody in Rhodesia - black or white - who has not lost somebody in the fighting, the blacks rather more than the whites. Irish people in Ulster tend to relish these deaths, to recount the horrors with something near satisfaction, to draw comfort from each hideous detail. Rhodesian blacks are the opposite, and speak in a deadpan and fatalistic way about the loss of friends and family.

I met General Debengwa, who is Nkomo's senior military leader in Rhodesia itself. Was he going back to his home town, Bulawayo? No, he said, there was no real point since he had no family there. His mother had lived there until a few years ago, but the Selous Scouts had discovered that she had fed a ZIPRA military column which was passing through. They had shot her immediately.

Debengwa described this incident without emotion, as if she had died from a heart attack - something sad but perhaps inevitable. I thought that, like Camus's outsider, he had found coldness his only defence against despair, or that being responsible for many deaths himself, had inured himself against the one which affected him. But later I found that nearly all blacks talk like this; they describe death as we discuss illness or a broken love affair, intolerable only if you let it prey upon your mind.

In a horrible way it matches the whites' unconcern with black mortality; among soldiers prestige can be measured by the number of dead "terrs" (or "floppies" - a description of how they fall when shot). "He and his brother have taken out 58 gooks between them," one troopie told me in admiration of a friend.

Curiously, it is hard not to be a little optimistic about the future for Zimbabwe (as nobody at all calls it yet, except in political speeches). The fear is not that there will be mass slaughter of the whites, followed by their flight to South Africa and the collapse of the economy, but that the need to retain white confidence may mean that the blacks are badly disappointed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/19...e.simonhoggart