If Le Pen Wins

[Mangusei]

Ye it's pretty much end of EU if she wins.

[Santti]

I doubt it.

[Shalcker]

Indeed, though I was thinking it was something more recent you were referring to.

Well, you could argue last one in Ukraine was extension of those, i'd say that's recent enough...

Again, not my point. My point is Russia hasn't been doing that, historically. Now they are. The only "new" aspect of it is who's using it (Russia), not the method itself.

That's because Kremlin's approach wasn't really suitable for creating that sort of thing. And it still doesn't, btw. It is more of "mutual benefit where applicable", almost strictly aimed at people currently in power - and in most EU countries it simply wasn't applicable much, outside of stuff like gas pipelines and nuclear plant loans, and often didn't survive power changes.

But they can use such situations when created by others - as it happened in Crimea/East Ukraine, or in Syria (and, arguably, happens in Libya).

[Triks]

Yawn, some random quote is far from being the definitive nature of a thing.

But sure, keep on limiting yourself to ideas and viewpoints and leave no room in yourself for anything other than what others tell you a thing is and should be. Meanwhile things are happening and the nature of many things is far removed from how it has been in the past. Definitions that were there all along, even if the people borrowing the words to describe their movements weren't applying them or were exemplifying something completely different.

Nationalism is accepting as well, as Patriotism is defensive. Get your mind out of the chicken nugget sized box and you'd perhaps see that.

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I wouldn't say that necessarily.

The strongarm right when it's actually grounded and moral has an almost Taoist "do your job and then step back" mentality, as in they'd be a hardcase long enough to shake off the EU and set things straight and then revert to being normal everyday people. The 24/7 hardass certainly exists amongst them but by nature isn't all encompassing. They're the spiritual descendants of men at arms who took up the sword long enough to defend their home or their lord and then returned home and were just the everyday guy.

The 24/7 hardass is a dying breed and shouldn't be looked to by anyone as relevant.

Nationalism is as accepting as jingoism is peaceful. I am not the one whose mind is in a "chicken nugget sized box" here, champ. Look at the work of Kohl - to this day German nationalism is vilified by Germans because it brought them the Kaiser and Hitler. Kohl more than anyone else understood this and aimed to instill a sense of national pride and honor - patriotism. Today's Germans are proud of their country but not in the same way as to sing "Die Wacht am Rhein".

[Damajin]

Nationalism accepting?

Speaking as a non-European immigrant to sweden, the nationalists rather have me back in my home country than here.

I didn't say of what, now did I?

Nationalists aren't looking for a multiculti landscape, that's for sure.

[Deleted]

I didn't say of what, now did I?

Nationalists aren't looking for a multiculti landscape, that's for sure.

If the sweden democrats are anything to go by then they don't want any of us non-Europeans really living in europe. Based on race and not culture.

[Damajin]

Nationalism is as accepting as jingoism is peaceful. I am not the one whose mind is in a "chicken nugget sized box" here, champ. Look at the work of Kohl - to this day German nationalism is vilified by Germans because it brought them the Kaiser and Hitler. Kohl more than anyone else understood this and aimed to instill a sense of national pride and honor - patriotism. Today's Germans are proud of their country but not in the same way as to sing "Die Wacht am Rhein".

Oh look, the person with limited sight and understanding defining things as though the German experience with Nationalism is the whole summation. Not smart.

First off as much as they talked Nationalism those guys were gangsters first and foremost. The sheer level of political and economic opportunism that existed in Nazi Germany and the short lead up to it isn't a natural part of Nationalism it's a natural part of Nazism. Those clowns borrowing words, phrases and ideas to sell to the people en masse in order to marshal them and exploit the country weren't exemplifying shit except that rank opportunism and a very general, basic effort to control. It's no different than Mussolini doing the same in Italy.

Yet again people forget or don't even bother to take account of the fact that the message of authoritarians is always put in very general, basic everyday and everyman principles so as to garner support and cement a movement. It's no different than what Trump did, or Obama did with his Hope and Change bullshit. People see through the veneer on those jokes but yet somehow can't see the Nazis/Fascists/Whatever and their borrowing of legitimate ideas to cloak and advance their agenda. Stupid.

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If the sweden democrats are anything to go by then they don't want any of us non-Europeans really living in europe. Based on race and not culture.

Well you shouldn't be, for what it's worth. Your homeland is where you belong.

[Al Gorefiend]

Is Europe seriously completely falling to pieces because of migrant and refugee laws? Is there more to it than that?

[Deleted]

Oh look, the person with limited sight and understanding defining things as though the German experience with Nationalism is the whole summation. Not smart.

First off as much as they talked Nationalism those guys were gangsters first and foremost. The sheer level of political and economic opportunism that existed in Nazi Germany and the short lead up to it isn't a natural part of Nationalism it's a natural part of Nazism. Those clowns borrowing words, phrases and ideas to sell to the people en masse in order to marshal them and exploit the country weren't exemplifying shit except that rank opportunism and a very general, basic effort to control. It's no different than Mussolini doing the same in Italy.

Yet again people forget or don't even bother to take account of the fact that the message of authoritarians is always put in very general, basic everyday and everyman principles so as to garner support and cement a movement. It's no different than what Trump did, or Obama did with his Hope and Change bullshit. People see through the veneer on those jokes but yet somehow can't see the Nazis/Fascists/Whatever and their borrowing of legitimate ideas to cloak and advance their agenda. Stupid.

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Well you shouldn't be, for what it's worth. Your homeland is where you belong.

I shouldn't based on what exactly? Racist notions of a racially and or ethnically pure country?

I don't belong to my home country. I wouldn't go back to live there no matter what.

[Frontenac]

Nationalism is as accepting as jingoism is peaceful. I am not the one whose mind is in a "chicken nugget sized box" here, champ. Look at the work of Kohl - to this day German nationalism is vilified by Germans because it brought them the Kaiser and Hitler. Kohl more than anyone else understood this and aimed to instill a sense of national pride and honor - patriotism. Today's Germans are proud of their country but not in the same way as to sing "Die Wacht am Rhein".

Patriotism and nationalism cannot be opposed. Patriotism is emotional. Nationalism is ideological. It promotes the freedom of the nation, its sovereignty, form of government, its values, culture, language, religion, history, etc. What is promoted will be different for each nation. It depends on how the nation defines itself. One nationalism can be very open to immigration (ex: Canada, whatever Justin "Kumbaya" Trudeau thinks about nationalism) and another much more closed (Japan). As long as there will be nations, there will be nationalisms. I doubt the man who led Germany to reunification had no nationalist leanings at all.

[Deleted]

Breaking up the EU would be a great victory for Russia and ISIS. I mean hell, all ISIS had to do was send a few suicide attackers in and bam there you go terror created and EU destroyed.

People love getting played I guess.

EU is only getting the real flak from failing miserably at the immigration policies, which is why countries wanna control their own borders and immigration policies now.
If the EU had reacted properly with a solid, hard but fair policy to combat the rampant immigration most countries would not have a problem with the EU as they do now.

It was not ISIS that made EU crumble, it was the combination of them taking advantage of the refugee crisis.

But yeah, Putin certainly wouldnt mind a broken EU. But the EU still got FN and NATO.

[Deleted]

Is Europe seriously completely falling to pieces because of migrant and refugee laws? Is there more to it than that?

No, Europe is not falling. It's actually better since the economical and financial crisis, with good economical growth.

[SinR]

As an American, I'd be interested to see if Le Pen can shake things up

[Zeth Hawkins]

No, I do not think that the EU will be finished when Le Pen wins.

[Triks]

Oh look, the person with limited sight and understanding defining things as though the German experience with Nationalism is the whole summation. Not smart.

First off as much as they talked Nationalism those guys were gangsters first and foremost. The sheer level of political and economic opportunism that existed in Nazi Germany and the short lead up to it isn't a natural part of Nationalism it's a natural part of Nazism. Those clowns borrowing words, phrases and ideas to sell to the people en masse in order to marshal them and exploit the country weren't exemplifying shit except that rank opportunism and a very general, basic effort to control. It's no different than Mussolini doing the same in Italy.

Yet again people forget or don't even bother to take account of the fact that the message of authoritarians is always put in very general, basic everyday and everyman principles so as to garner support and cement a movement. It's no different than what Trump did, or Obama did with his Hope and Change bullshit. People see through the veneer on those jokes but yet somehow can't see the Nazis/Fascists/Whatever and their borrowing of legitimate ideas to cloak and advance their agenda. Stupid.

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Well you shouldn't be, for what it's worth. Your homeland is where you belong.

Yet we aren't talking about populism and politicking, we are talking about patriotism, nationalism and jingoism. German nationalism was a thing since the 19-th century and it was spawned not through a desire for unification but as a result of Napoleon's aggression, hence why the song is called "THE GUARD on Rhine". That's nationalism - the survival of the nation-state above all else.

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Patriotism and nationalism cannot be opposed. Patriotism is emotional. Nationalism is ideological. It promotes the freedom of the nation, its sovereignty, form of government, its values, culture, language, religion, history, etc. What is promoted will be different for each nation. It depends on how the nation defines itself. One nationalism can be very open to immigration (ex: Canada, whatever Justin "Kumbaya" Trudeau thinks about nationalism) and another much more closed (Japan). As long as there will be nations, there will be nationalisms. I doubt the man who led Germany to reunification had no nationalist leanings at all.

They can't be opposed - that's true. Nationalism is more extreme version of patriotism.The question should be - when does patriotism become nationalism. You can have your usual forum goers who spout "the will of the people", "the EU is an undermocratic elected state" and "immigration is bad for the host culture" but that's a very extreme view of things and it borders on jingoism. In regards to Trudeau, I think him and the SNP in Scotland are patriots because they show openness to other cultures while Le Pen and Trump (the latter bordering on jingoism) are nationalists because of their overall message - OUR culture, OUT nation should come first.

For the Germans - Bismarck viewed nationalists as useful idiots, don't know much about Kohl as a person but given Germany's previous history with nationalism I doubt he was that.

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Is Europe seriously completely falling to pieces because of migrant and refugee laws? Is there more to it than that?

No it's not falling apart. Economically it's doing good but it needs to be reformed. The biggest problems are force austerity and the mishandling of the migrant crisis. It's not as black and white as people try to paint it.

[Deleted]

Nationalism accepting?

Speaking as a non-European immigrant to sweden, the nationalists rather have me back in my home country than here.

You are asian right? so im guessing that u dont live in a no go zone and ur not on social welfare?.

So if you think SD wana kick you out then you are brainwashed by feminazi media here in Sweden.

All they want is controlled immigration like in US Canada and to kick out all that behave badly and illegals.

[JohnBrown1917]

Is Europe seriously completely falling to pieces because of migrant and refugee laws? Is there more to it than that?

Not its not, its not falling to pieces either.
Just a few hopefulls pretending it is.

[Triks]

How's my boy Captain Melonman doing?

[Deleted]

Well you shouldn't be, for what it's worth. Your homeland is where you belong.

Care to elaborate on the "where you belong" part? In what way?
Personally, I moved from Austria to Sweden a couple of months ago simply because I really like it here - and I don't exactly see what's wrong with that. Do I have any kind of obligation to stay at the place/in the country I was born in? If so, why?

[Deleted]

Breaking up the EU would be a great victory for Russia and ISIS. I mean hell, all ISIS had to do was send a few suicide attackers in and bam there you go terror created and EU destroyed.

People love getting played I guess.

Russia and ISIS have nothing to do with a possible collapse of the EU, it's their own fault for not being democratic and simply forcing all kinds of shit on the population of Europe.