Look how great Odynn is! (warrior hall Odyn lore)

[Friendlyimmolation]

We don't know how many of the Vrykul back then have free will (and by that, I assume you meant being born naturally instead of being created, since they were still being created artificially during the Ordering of Azeroth). I'm pretty sure he didn't need half of the Vrykul to become Val'kyr, though. Chronicle only stated that Helya argued that Odyn shouldn't enslave the Vrykul with free-will to obey him (this applies only to the Val'kyr, not the Valarjar). However, her argument - while morally makes sense - might not be correct. Having free will doesn't change the fact that they were created to assist the Keepers in their Azeroth-related tasks.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Just because he didn't need every vry'kul to die obviously means they didn't want to die for him though.

Odyn breaking himself of the other Keepers didn't stop him from being a Keeper, the Prime Designate or protecting Azeroth. She was still obligated to listen to him as he still had all the requirements.

pretty sure their mantel of responsibility died when the Dragons were elevated weren't it? And it still comes back to the fact that his own pride made him kill Heyla, and his picture of his own fairy tale valor land.

[Clone]

1) The poster I replied to said that what I said wasn't true and that I should read the book. I did, and it's even in the book. So what you're saying has no relevance to my post.

2) Yeah he's such a dick for making sure a Titan Keeper does the job she's supposed to do, in an effort to save the fucking planet. What an absolute dick.



Don't try to distract from the fact that you were wrong. All I said was that Odyn wanted Val'kyr, no one volunteered, so he had to pick someone. You said read the book. I did, and it's in there. Some people just can't admit when they're wrong.

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right? Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

[Magnagarde]

Helya was his creation as much as he was the Titan's creation. The Titan's would have wiped Odyn out had he disobeyed them too. It is a fairly easy concept to grasp. The only purpose for Helya's existence was to serve Odyn. She had no purpose beyond that and she failed her purpose. She has no choice to make and choices were never hers to make; hers was to follow instructions. The only time her defiance to Odyn would be acceptable is if Odyn himself defied the Titan's instructions and desired to harm Azeroth.

This cannot be evaluated through the standards of the living and undead as we are talking about the creations of deities here which can't even concieve the possibility of being disobeyed by what they created. It's like crafting a clock which doesn't show the time - it becomes useless.

It is hard to imagine we have a couple of people here comparing the Titan's lieutenants on Azeroth and what they do with their creations(while not deviating from the Titans' instructions of safeguarding Azeroth) with what Arthas did in Stratholme or whatever else. Odyn and the likes were literally entrusted with their position by the gods of the universe to remain vigilant over the situation in the world that the Titans ordered and people compare the decisions/actions of deities/their creations with the actions of mortals/mortals turned undead.

Next up; evaluating Sargeras through the prism of Topper McNabb.

[Aucald]

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right? Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

In the current lore I don't think the Titans directly empowered the Aspects, though - though the Titans (or echoes of them) spoke to the Aspects on the occasion, it was actually the Titan Keepers who empowered them. Odyn disagreed with the other Keepers' plan to do this, arguing that the dragonflights couldn't be trusted not to fall to corruption.

[Throren]

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right? Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

The titans didn't empower the dragon aspects. The titans charged the keepers with protecting Azeroth with Odyn as their leader. After watching the proto-dragons, the other keepers decided they would pass their duties and bestow powers onto the soon to be dragons. Odyn told them no as the the titans charged them with protecting Azeroth, not the dragons, but the other keepers did it anyways

[Magnagarde]

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right? Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

The Titan Keepers empowered the dragons. Odyn saw them prone to corruption and rejected the notion of empowering them. This is when he commanded a portion of Ulduar to be raised to the skies.

Odyn is literally the gods' prime enforcer on Azeroth.

[Aucald]

It's worth noting that the Titan Keepers (except for Odyn) decided to empower the Aspects because of their own mistakes with Galakrond - they were growing ever more distant with the evolving mortal life on Azeroth. Tyr wisely saw that this was the lot of immortal and alien beings that were not part of the order of created things like the proto-drakes and other life on Azeroth. They missed the danger of Galakrond and barely responded to it in time, almost dooming the world they had been entrusted with in the process. Odyn disagreed but he was also just as inactive - a sign that Tyr may not have been too far off the mark with his assessment of the Keepers' growing inability to serve in their role.

Yogg-Saron's influence on the Keepers might have also been a strong factor in their growing indolence, as well.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Titan Keepers empowered the dragons. Odyn saw them prone to corruption and rejected the notion of empowering them. This is when he commanded a portion of Ulduar to be raised to the skies.

Odyn is literally the gods' prime enforcer on Azeroth.

And then he turns around and corrupts his loyal servant, Hes not the best planner to say the least.

[Magnagarde]

And then he turns around and corrupts his loyal servant, Hes not the best planner to say the least.

He might be qualified as a bad planner and arrogant because he was obviously stuck in the Halls of Valor untill being freed by the adventurers of Azeroth. That still doesn't void his designation as the prime enforcer of the gods' will on Azeroth.

Titans and the hierarchy they had prolly doesn't reckognize the term "servant"; creation is more appropriate. Terming something as your creation has an unique sense of control attached to it, one that doesn't humanize the thing that serves you. In this case, the servant evokes no emotion in the creator, but is judged by its efficiency to do what it is meant to do.

[Friendlyimmolation]

He might be qualified as a bad planner and arrogant because he was obviously stuck in the Halls of Valor untill being freed by the adventurers of Azeroth. That still doesn't void his designation as the prime enforcer of the gods' will on Azeroth.

Titans and the hierarchy they had prolly doesn't reckognize the term "servant"; creation is more appropriate. Terming something as your creation has an unique sense of control attached to it, one that doesn't humanize the thing that serves you. In this case, the servant evokes no emotion in the creator, but is judged by its efficiency to do what it is meant to do.

judging by the description of their argument,emotion were defiantly evoked.

[Magnagarde]

judging by the description of their argument,emotion were defiantly evoked.

Never denied that arguements didn't evoke emotions. It is fairly obvious Odyn was infuriated. He was bound to be infuriated when something whose only purpose was to serve him disobeys him. I am talking about the way they judge their creation and how they make decisions without remorse or pity.

There is no emotion evoked when having to deem their creation inefficient and unworthy.

[Qualia]

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Just because he didn't need every vry'kul to die obviously means they didn't want to die for him though.

I thought that by free will Vrykul, you actually meant Vrykul who weren't artificially created by the Pantheon or Keepers and were born naturally without any specific purpose instead (and thus, closer to a sentient living being than just robots to the Pantheon / Keepers). That's why I said "we don't know how many of the Vrykul back then have free will" as we don't know how many Vrykul were born and how many were created after the Ordering. Those were the ones that can arguably claim that they have no obligation to listen to the Keepers (I use "arguably" as the Vrykul race as a whole was created to assist the Keepers, so one may say that as long as you belongs to the race, you have to follow their reason of existence - I guess that'd be a matter of opinions).

However, if by having free will, you just meant what it said, "having free will", without any other implications, you can ignore that part and just jump back to my original argument: having free will does not change the fact that they (the Titanforged army) were artificially created by the Pantheon and Keepers with one single purpose to assist the Keepers in their Azeroth-related tasks. Thus, to the Keepers (just like how the Keepers should be to the Pantheon), they are just creation / tool. To make it an example that we can think of: they'd be closer to androids / machines with a perfect AI than people.

In that light, what Odyn did to Helya was more akin to remodelling / reprogramming an android than enslaving a person and was fully within his rights granted by their creators (the Pantheon, if he didn't create her).

pretty sure their mantel of responsibility died when the Dragons were elevated weren't it? And it still comes back to the fact that his own pride made him kill Heyla, and his picture of his own fairy tale valor land.

No, I don't think so. What the Keepers (except Odyn) did was asking the Pantheon to empower the Aspects to protect Azeroth as they realized they had became indifferent to the world at large. They didn't ask for all the Keepers to be relieved of their duty, neither did the Pantheon said so. To the Keepers (again, except Odyn), it was more in the line of "Well, there are more people to do the jobs now so we can take it easy". Their duty towards Azeroth was still there, and Odyn just didn't want to take it easy by letting a non-Titanforged race to share the responsibility.

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right? Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

See what I just said above. The Titans empowered the Aspects to protect Azeroth. They did that, and that only (well, and gave the Aspects a motivational speech). They didn't relieve all the Keepers of their duty, be it an order or just a suggestion, so there wasn't anything for Odyn to listen to. Odyn voiced his unhappiness, but he didn't do anything against the Aspects (which would have been against the Pantheon's will to make the Aspects defenders of Azeroth) - he just went and create a, in his opinion, more trustworthy army.

[Radaney]

The Titan Keepers empowered the dragons. Odyn saw them prone to corruption and rejected the notion of empowering them. This is when he commanded a portion of Ulduar to be raised to the skies.

Odyn is literally the gods' prime enforcer on Azeroth.

Odyn ended up being correct on this which is interesting.

[Combatbutler]

Odyn ended up being correct on this which is interesting.

Yeah instead he chose to make Vrykul the main defenders of the world, which turned out even worse than the dragons.

[Zandalariprelate]

There's Genn Greymane.
And Darius Crowley
Magni Bronzebeard
Muradin Bronzebeard
Kurdran Wildhammer
Falstad Wildhammer
Baine Bloodhoof.
Nazgrel...

I admit a lot of the main warrior characters are now dead, though. Mayla Highmountain is an interesting warrior character added in Legion, I think.

Nazgrel is MIA or directly not-existing, Baine bloodhoof dont make me laught about that, kurdran is at the same place as nazgrel, muradin as been kinda missing the invasion and front line like falstad, only geen and darius had show up to get some screen time after being forgotten since cataclysm, Odyn is a watch op and it would be the douchebag character in the good guy side that we need(ilidan is becoming more light oriented slowly and bolvar is more in a dark line than grey)

[Frontenac]

Yeah instead he chose to make Vrykul the main defenders of the world, which turned out even worse than the dragons.

To be honest, Odyn and his Valarjar were trapped in the Halls of Valor long before the Sundering. So we'll never know if his plan really was better. What we know is that the Aspects were not a success.

[Combatbutler]

To be honest, Odyn and his Valarjar were trapped in the Halls of Valor long before the Sundering. So we'll never know if his plan really was better. What we know is that the Aspects were not a success.

That is the point though, his army was entirely useless, because he screwed the first generation of Vrykul over and that bit him hard, not to mention the current vrykul generation joined the very legion in droves.

[Arrashi]

Yeah instead he chose to make Vrykul the main defenders of the world, which turned out even worse than the dragons.

But they were only thing almost as beardy, manly and valorous as him ! He had no other options.

[alt-ithist]

Would like to point out, if the keepers never empowered the aspects then Odyn would still be in ulduar and most likely under the thumb of Yog. In which case, the legion would've waltz in during the war of the ancients, and the dragon soul would probably have been "The Keeper Soul" created by Lokin to free the Old Gods. Remember Lokin was a far more manageable pawn then Deathwing was so Azeroth would've been fucked.

Short end: Odyn was wrong.

[Deleted]

So he just absolutely "had" to create the val'kyr right?

Did he have to create the Val'kyr? I don't know. Did we have to create the four horsemen? Did we have to resurrect our ancients? Did Sylvanas have to go and try to enslave Eyir? Did we have to work together with the Horde in order to defeat Archimonde at Mount Hyjal?

The simple answer is, no one fucking knows and no one will ever know. How would history have went had none of these things happened? Would we have still won our battles? What would the world look like without the Val'kyr and the Valarjar? We could say that all of the things that the warrior player character did, he wouldn't have done, so possibly Thorim would still be trapped in Ulduar. So what does that mean? Would Thorim be lost, because no one else would go save him? Would someone else step up eventually? Would they be too late? No one knows.

What we can say however is that the Val'kyr and Valarjar are powerful allies. Very powerful allies. One of the reasons why Sylvanas trying to enslave Eyir and her Val'kyr was a really stupid idea. And I think that we can say that creating the Val'kyr and the Valarjar wasn't a stupid idea. We can use all the power we can get to fight against the Legion. Nothing is unnecessary when you're trying to fight for survival.

And then you have Helya, a Titan Keeper, who was meant to protect Azeroth, and who wasn't willing to do everything she had to defend Azeroth. Sacrifice is a big theme in Legion. Helya obviously didn't understand it.

Now you can answer that by saying that she didn't do it cause it wasn't necessary. But how do you know beforehand that anything is necessary? How do the Demon Hunters know that their sacrifices are necessary? How did Illidan know that when he battled the Legion in the War of the Ancients that him sacrificing his magi was necessary to win the war, or to survive another day? We don't know. No one ever knows. You just do it. And then you have to live with the consequences of your actions.

Never mind the fact the titans decided to empower the dragons instead, Odyn's purpose by then should have been fuck off and listen to his creators.

Well, the Titans are all dead and the aspects are almost all dead or doomed to become corrupted. The aspects were created for the purpose of saving Azeroth and then they spent their power saving Azeroth from one of their own. Odyn, the Halls of Valor and the Valarjar are still around and kicking ass. The Titans and the dragon aspects can all fuck right off. So that means that Odyn knew better than the Titans. Odyn all the way baby. I am Valarjar.