Look how great Odynn is! (warrior hall Odyn lore)

[Mehrunes]

It's funny I hated odyn but I never thought he would flat out lie

The only viable response to this.

On unrelated note - "shadow of judgement" is a great name for planetary destroyer class ship.

I declare Exterminatus

[Friendlyimmolation]

At our behest by the way. We actually come up with the idea and convince Odyn that Yhmiron should be eternally enslaved for his continued imputence and betrayel. Odyn finds it amusing and agrees.

That is our fault. Odyn was perfectly fine with Yhmiron staying dead and that's what he initially says before we convince him.

lol that's pretty funny, ok . Is odyn response. He didn't need much convincing.

[CthulhuFhtagn]

Well, the Titans are all dead and the aspects are almost all dead or doomed to become corrupted. The aspects were created for the purpose of saving Azeroth and then they spent their power saving Azeroth from one of their own. Odyn, the Halls of Valor and the Valarjar are still around and kicking ass. The Titans and the dragon aspects can all fuck right off. So that means that Odyn knew better than the Titans. Odyn all the way baby. I am Valarjar.

Odyn and his valorous Valarjar haven't done jack shit in the last 10.000 years except make up fairy tales about him. But to be fair, they were imprisoned by Helya. But when he learns we are here to stop the Legion he will help us by giving us his Pillar of Creation, right? Only after he makes us jump through arbitrary hoops and prove our valor. Well okay, he had to make sure we weren't Legion agents. Then he sicks us on Helya (but not before testing our valor...again) to sort out the mess he made himself, but when we kill her his Valarjar will be free and can help us so it makes sense to help him. So now that Odyn and his mighty Valarjar are finally free, we've proven our worth and valor, what does he do? He unleashes his full fury upon the Legion and makes them rue the day when they pissed off the Prime Designate of Azeroth...oh wait, no he doesn't, he sends assassins to murder Skovald's wife and children instead. Go Odyn?

[Aucald]

lol that's pretty funny, ok . Is odyn response. He didn't need much convincing.

Ymiron may be the one person in Odyn's catalog that actually deserved what he got, at least in my opinion.

[Mehrunes]

Assassinating a potential threat for greater good has nothing to do with valor, though. Valor means courage in danger / battle. It wasn't a battle and neither was it part of a war. Thus, valor has nothing to do there whatever his choice was. It's neither valorous nor the other way around. Odyn is undeniably a jerk, but accusing / mocking him of the wrong thing doesn't help furthering the cause. Not to mention his action in regards to Skovald family isn't that wrong - that's essentially what countries' intelligence / secret service kind of forces have been doing for millennia.

I like how you properly give the definition of valor as courage in face of danger or battle and then to "prove" how this event had nothing to do with valor one way or another to whitewash Odyn you completely skip over the danger part and focus exclusively on the battle aspect. The prophecy was that of future danger. Odyn sending assassins was to prevent that danger. Which is Odyn going at it in totally cowardly way. Which means it was not valorous. And something being done for millennia doesn't prevent it from being wrong. Which is why it's a war crime nowadays.

Newer Lore beats old one. I would assume this stories the true Story of Odyn.

You'd assume anything to be true as long as it pandered to your narrative. Chronicles is narrative, all-knowing source. These snippets are one sided in-lore propaganda. There's no inherent conflict between these two sources and as such the rule you're talking about does not apply.

So its great to have you back, already back to polluting the lore and this forum!

Looks like I chose a great time to check on lore forum again.

Don't forget the burning beard bonus ;P

The bonus is lost due to the beard having the shape of a ballsack though. If anything, the total of the beard is negative.

But they cant stop sucking his dick in Legion. Hell Thorim exclaims "By Odyn's beard!" to show surprise.

Well, sucking Odyn's dick should be the natural state of all life on Azeroth. Glory be to Odyn, the true overlord of Azeroth!

Haven't looked at these scrolls yet, but I never understood why people were giving Odyn so much shit. He asked for someone to step up and become a Val'kyr because they needed Val'kyr to raise their fallen soldiers. No one wanted to so he had to make someone. It's like a teacher picking a student to do a task when no one is volunteering. What you're not gonna do everything you can to help us fight the Legion? The Titans created you for the specific purpose of guarding Azeroth, and you don't wanna? You're a shitty Titan Keeper.

If Odyn can create Val'kyr, which themselves are undead, why does he need Val'kyr in the first place? Also, Helya wasn't a Keeper. And guarding Azeroth is not equal to becoming an undead slave of a madman.

And the all got fucked up AFTER Loken got rid of Odyn, who was his primary worry. So maybe he was the most likely person to prevent this.

Really Odyn objected to the other Keepers giving some overgrown lizards the power that their Gods and creators gave them so that they could not do their job that their Gods asked them to do and let the lizards do it instead. I still don't see why Odyn was wrong here. He got outvoted so he used his own power to make an alternative in case the lizards did not prove to be a good option (which they largely didn't).

Aspects succeeded at their primary task. Odyn didn't even care to monitor the other Keepers (or his goddamn main Val'kyr - i.e. one of the reasons he isolated himself in his VALORland) which allowed Loken to stage his coup, despite having a tool that could monitor everything.

Odyn is the first-hand creation of the titans entrusted to battle the Black Empire(at the time) and safeguard Azeroth afterwards. Helya's defiance was foolish because she was in Odyn's service and was aware of his role in the world.

If Odyn was evil and had malicious intentions, then Helya rebelling him would be the only decent thing to do, but that wasn't the case. The only reason she defied him was because she subjectively didn't like the order her master gave her, even though it wasn't evil, malicious or hurting Azeroth.

Yeah, turning people into undead slaves is all the rage nowadays. Which is why Lich King was such a swell guy.

[Deleted]

If Odyn can create Val'kyr, which themselves are undead, why does he need Val'kyr in the first place? Also, Helya wasn't a Keeper. And guarding Azeroth is not equal to becoming an undead slave of a madman.

I honestly don't know. Cause Blizzard said so. The book doesn't seem to go into too much detail. But in the end you can't deny that Val'kyr are really useful, especially against an enemy that can come back again and again.

Helya was a "titan-forged sorceress". I don't know what makes a Titan Keeper a Titan Keeper so whatever. She did some work for the Titans, she helped Ra-den create the Elemental Shaman weapons, so I just assumed. Whatever, she was created certainly not for the purpose of harming Azeroth, but that's what she did.

[Mehrunes]

Helya was a servant of Odyn. Odyn was a servant of the Titans. Imagine if Odyn decided to join up with the Black Empire during the war because he prefered it more than the Titans because he doesn't want to do what he was assigned to do and what was essentially the purpose of his existance. We're not talking of enslavement here; the purpose of Odyn's existence was to serve and so was Helya's. You can't repurpose a design, a creation, without effectively making it malfunctional as it no longer does what it is intended to do. In this case, it was Helya.

TIL: you can't enslave sentient creatures, because reasons horseshit.

Odyn and Sylvanas are therefor incomparable. Odyn's existence alone is a legacy of the Titans and as such is the closest you could come to the command of the benevolent gods in the Warcraft universe, whereas Sylvanas existence and actions are an abbomination of nature which Odyn still protects. I don't disagree that he is arrogant and narcistic, but he is not malicious and acts upon someone as they deserve.

Yeah, Odyn totally protects nature by creating the very same kind of "abominations of nature" thousands of years before Ner'zhul even landed on Azeroth. Hell, thousands of years before Sataiel entered Azeroth.

[Jastall]

Odyn's a total dick, yeah, but he's a dick who's helping us fight the Legion. So I'm OK with him. And to a larger extent, I'm fine with some characters not being pure-hearted angels (or worse, retconned as such like Illidank). Not everyone needs to be a Tirion or an Anduin.

[Kralljin]

lol that's pretty funny, ok . Is odyn response. He didn't need much convincing.

And yes, this still works on live severs.

[Zulkhan]

You'd assume anything to be true as long as it pandered to your narrative. Chronicles is narrative, all-knowing source. These snippets are one sided in-lore propaganda. There's no inherent conflict between these two sources and as such the rule you're talking about does not apply.

And while all of this is true, it would merely be hilarious that after a single expansion Blizzard goes and retcons stuff of the book series meant to clear shit out in Warcraft's lore.

[Mehrunes]

Odyn can't even be evaluated as a character. He is a creation, not a character. All his actions and all his powers are innately inherited and blessed by the "gods" of the Warcraft universe(they effectively are the gods of the universe, untill we find a higher level of creation present through the lore). The only ones that can limit his range of action and determine wether it is good or not are the Titans themselves, his creators.

This is abject nonsense. Keepers have agency and their own characters, which can be observed all over Warcraft lore. Ra becoming depressed is not a programmed, intended function of the "gods". Neither is Thorim doing the same (or getting married). Tyr going against the Prime Designate. Archaedas following him. Uldum Keepers allowing the Tol'vir to use Halls of Originations during their war against Thunder King, a Titan Forged himself.

I'm not saying that the Dragons did no good at all, but they still generally failed at their main purpose. They were given powers to protect Azeroth. Ultimately, the greatest threat they stopped was one of their own, Neltharion... Nozdormu was given power over time to protect the timelines of Azeroth. Yet, in the end, we protected them against Nozdormu (Murozond) himself... And as far as we know, his Infinite Dragonflight was the only threat those blasted timelines ever encountered. Again, the dragon biting its own tail... Malygos was supposed to protect magic, yet mortals were using it freely and when he tried to stop it, he messed up the leylines even more... It's hard to deny that Loken and the other keepers were wrong in empowering the Aspects and that Odyn, perhaps, was right to put his faith elsewhere.

It's the stark opposite. While Aspects failed in many situations, they did succeed in their main purpose, preventing the Hour of Twilight. And Infinite Dragonflight wasn't the only threat to the timelines. Old Gods attempted to rip it, which resulted in the rewrite of War of the Ancients.

[Zulkhan]

And yes, this still works on live severs.

I sympathized with the "wat" comment the guy was just going to type.

[Mehrunes]

Probably because he is more pragmatic than Slyvanus. Slyvanus has Putress, Stillwater, and Godfrey as evidence that Odyn is smarter. Odyn might have been locked up by helya but at least he wasn't corrupted by Yogg Saron like the other keepers were.

What are they supposed to prove again? Odyn was betrayed by Helya and her Val'kyr. Betrayed by Loken. And finally betrayed by Skovald and an entire clan of Vrykul. That's somewhat more people betraying him than Sylvanas.

If you base the value on time rather than number of betrayals. Odyn got betrayed once, Slyvanus got fucked over three times. Odyn destoyed a legion ship with a spear. Slyvanus has done nothing to fight the Legion.

That's only because you're ignorant of lore, as per usual (with a possibly of inability to count as well). And Forsaken are fighting the Legion.

Not to mention Odyn was basically right. The majority of the problems on Azeroth involved dragons(usually in a negative way) and the dragons helped the old god forces(twilight, nightmare, chromatic dragons) while the Titan forged defeated the Black Empire.

And Valarjar did fuck all for millennia.

The only thing Odyn did wrong was not killing her.

Yeah, totally not a dick. Totes.

He's a Titan Keeper. He's supposed to protect Azeroth. He did what he thought he had to do. Judging from the fact that all the Titans died, the dragon aspect of earth got corrupted and the rest of the aspects lost all their power trying to put him down, and almost all of the original aspects have either died by now (Malygos, Neltharion and Ysera) or are doomed to become corrupted (Nozdormu), and judging from the fact that the Halls of Valor, Odyn and the Valarjar are all still around and are being of great help against the Legion, I'd say Odyn did something right. I'd put my money on him.

You do realize that the primary reason why Odyn and Valarjar are still around is because they were all trapped in his crazy VALORland for eons, unable to interact with the world?

[Deleted]

You do realize that the primary reason why Odyn and Valarjar are still around is because they were all trapped in his crazy VALORland for eons, unable to interact with the world?

Yeah, cause of that bitch Helya. Yeah, let's sabotage everything cause Odyn hurt muh feels. Fuck Azeroth.

[Mehrunes]

How exactly am I wrong? You read it right there and still show you can't actually understand what was written on the pages. Odyn didn't have a prophecy, he wasn't all seeing. He wanted his own private army and was willing to kill Vrykul and anyone in his way. Odyn was selfish, unable to accept that he wasn't the favorite child of the titan so he killed Heyla for his own toys. By every definition hes a giant golden Brat, incapable of forsight, causing problems then not understanding why they bite him in the ass.

repeating that im wrong doesn't change the fact that Odyns a prick. I assume you must kiss the lore Sylvanas touches because she's a better person than him.

Holy shit, it all fits into place now. Odyn is Azeroth's Trump.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Holy shit, it all fits into place now. Odyn is Azeroth's Trump.

Build a wall and keep the Old Gods out.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah, cause of that bitch Helya. Yeah, let's sabotage everything cause Odyn hurt muh feels. Fuck Azeroth.

Odyn did more than that and you know it, it is basically the same as godfrey blowing sylvanas brains out, totally understandable behavior. Or the forsaken trying to destroy the Lich king.

[Mehrunes]

Since you guys are talking about what Odyn did to Helya, there is this issue up I brought up in another thread: was Helya, or the Titanforged races in general, really considered "people" to the Keepers? Unlike us (as in our in-game characters or ourselves in real life) who was born naturally with free will and without any specific purpose assigned to us, the Titanforged races which Helya was part of was artificially created by the Pantheon and the Keepers with one single definite purpose: to assist the Keepers in doing their task of safeguarding Azeroth (fighting against OGs, ordering, protecting Azeroth afterwards, etc.). That's not how a person is born, that's how a tool is created. To the Pantheon / the Keepers, aren't they closer to sentient robots than living being?

That's precisely why Helya was Odyn's adopted daughter and why Sif was Thorim's wife and Loken's lover It's clear now, Keepers are also fetishists. Either that, or the idea of Titan Forged being tools to them includes Titan Forged Fleshlight model.

If one day we create a perfect AI that can be as capable of thinking / feeling as our minds do, do you think it'd be wrong for the scientists to remodel & reprogramming the androids / machines to suit our - their masters' - needs even if they don't want to? That's pretty much what Odyn did.

And that line of thought will give rise to the Terminators. If it's fully sentient it's no longer a mere tool. It's an entity capable of volition and being its own thing, which may very well include finding being forcibly altered by inferior form of life to be not preferable.

Just to clarify, I do think Odyn is a jerk with flaws. However, I don't really think what he did to Helya was as bad as some of you made it sounds like. He only did what was within his rights.

And, pray tell, where exactly did you get that this was within his rights?

And when I say he wasn't Arthas, I mean the curse clouded his mind to the point where he just wasn't himself anymore. Arthas didn't all of a sudden sit down and think.. "you know what, kinda tired of my people. Fuck'em. And I'm gonna kill my father, too! Prick never liked him anyway." The uncursed would have never done that, if you think that, you are [insert mean word].

Arthas was himself the entire time.

With that said, there is a big difference between Odyn-Helya and Arthas-Sylvanas case. Sylvanas, similar to our character, was born naturally and didn't have "Helping Arthas" as her raison d'etre. That means Arthas enslaved another unrelated being on the same level as him (well, there wasn't any big difference in human / elves in natural hierarchy as far as I know) to do something she had no obligation to. On the other hand, Helya was artificially created to follow the Keepers and assist them in doing their task. Not only she was at least a level lower than the Keepers (designed by her creators) but Odyn was also just forcing her to do what she was created to do - helping him with his plan to protect Azeroth. While the results might have been similar, the situations were way different.

Splitting hairs. But this is fun. Now do find the difference between what Odyn did to Helya and what Arthas did to his subjects after he killed his father. Related to him due to being his subject. At least a level lower than the king (and given the feudal nature of Lordaeron, the peasants were most likely multiple levels below him). Their purpose as subjects of the monarch being serving and obeying the monarch.

Yes, he is a creation too. While he has free will, he'd be the same as a robot / tool towards the Titans. I'm not arguing against it. I'd expect Odyn, or any of the Keepers in general, to be perfectly obedience towards any command of their creators (the Pantheon) regardless whether they personally like it or not. So far, other than corrupted cases, I don't think any of them had go against the Pantheon's orders yet?

If you ignore Ra realizing what the Titan's last message meant and instead of listening to the order to "rebuild the final Titan" choosing to isolate himself and go on a millennia-long emo fit, sure. And how comes the other Titan Keepers weren't perfectly obedient towards the commands of the Prime Designate on multiple occasions, despite being below him, just like the other Titan Forged are?

Odyn breaking himself of the other Keepers didn't stop him from being a Keeper, the Prime Designate or protecting Azeroth. She was still obligated to listen to him as he still had all the requirements.

Other Keepers not listening to him in the first place already throws a wrench into this theory.

However, if by having free will, you just meant what it said, "having free will", without any other implications, you can ignore that part and just jump back to my original argument: having free will does not change the fact that they (the Titanforged army) were artificially created by the Pantheon and Keepers with one single purpose to assist the Keepers in their Azeroth-related tasks. Thus, to the Keepers (just like how the Keepers should be to the Pantheon), they are just creation / tool. To make it an example that we can think of: they'd be closer to androids / machines with a perfect AI than people.

In that light, what Odyn did to Helya was more akin to remodelling / reprogramming an android than enslaving a person and was fully within his rights granted by their creators (the Pantheon, if he didn't create her).

AI aren't immune to being enslaved. If something is fully sentient and forced to be not even a servant, but a tool of another sentient entity, it's enslaved. And reprogramming is equivalent to brainwashing. Given how Helya hated Odyn afterwards, obviously nothing like that happened. Besides, your fantastical fabrication that the position of Prime Designate allowed Odyn to do anything he wanted to Titan Forged, including turning them into undead, has no basis in lore.

The very fact other Keepers didn't heed his worries about the Aspects proves that Titan Forged are entities with their own will and volition, not bound by the supreme will of the Odyn-Overlord, i.e. proves you wrong. If one accepted your theory as something it is not, truth, then why the hell did Loken to continue being all secretive after he took the mantle of the Prime Designate? Keepers weren't mere Vrykul, their sense of duty was stronger. As evidenced by their desire to understand the "order" Titans sent them when Sargeras cleaved their asses. Hell, you already said they were perfectly obedient. By your logic, all Loken had to do was to order his subordinate, perfectly obedient Keepers to kill themselves, because "the good of Azeroth required it" and he needed them to serve that way (somewhat similar to what Odyn tried to pull with Helya).

Odyn ended up being correct on this which is interesting.

And yet they succeeded at their task of preventing the Hour of Twilight while Odyn's VALORous Valarjar did nothing for bajillion years.

To be honest, Odyn and his Valarjar were trapped in the Halls of Valor long before the Sundering. So we'll never know if his plan really was better. What we know is that the Aspects were not a success.

I'm pretty sure that contrary to Deathwing's claims, the Hour of Twilight did not come, making Aspects a success.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'm pretty sure that contrary to Deathwing's claims, the Hour of Twilight did not come, making Aspects a success.

Cata flashbacks. They be comin

[Frontenac]

This is abject nonsense. Keepers have agency and their own characters, which can be observed all over Warcraft lore. Ra becoming depressed is not a programmed, intended function of the "gods". Neither is Thorim doing the same (or getting married). Tyr going against the Prime Designate. Archaedas following him. Uldum Keepers allowing the Tol'vir to use Halls of Originations during their war against Thunder King, a Titan Forged himself.




It's the stark opposite. While Aspects failed in many situations, they did succeed in their main purpose, preventing the Hour of Twilight. And Infinite Dragonflight wasn't the only threat to the timelines. Old Gods attempted to rip it, which resulted in the rewrite of War of the Ancients.

But the Hour of Twilight was heralded by Deathwing, the Aspect of Earth himself. The Aspects were empowered to prevent the Hour of Twilight, the evasion of the Old Gods, but the Old Gods managed to corrupt the Earthwarder and made him so powerful that it took all the power of the four remaining Aspects to destroy him. Results of the operation: Deathwing is dead, N'Zoth is still very much alive, his main enemies have lost their powers and are mortal if not already dead, the dragons are a dying race, and nothing (beside us) can stop him from ushering in another Hour of Twilight when the times are ripe. It was a pyrrhic victory at best, which left the Aspects so weak that they cannot expect to win against N'Zoth anymore. They failed at their main purpose.