Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Xeoshades]

Blood drinker stealth buff? Seems it tics 4 times now rather then 3. 1 on cast, 3 after.

[Raiz]

One thing that I found interesting was the tier 75 talents. 63.9% of the parses have Tightening Grasp even though there's virtually nothing to slow in NH and Gorefiend's use is limited. My guess would be that people simply don't want to use Tomes or Codexes to switch to March of the Damned (or that an untalented wratih walk is "long enough.")

Laziness for sure but also not every dk log in for raids only. Tightening Grasp is really good in m+.

Another surprise was Anti-Magic Barrier at 8%. I guess some people are really scared of getting burst down from full.

I'd take Ossuary any day over Anti magic barrier. Combine with the fact that a lot of DK run with Shackle of Bryndaor. 34 RP deathstrike ? Yes please (unless, for some inexplicable reason, you have absolutely 0 versatily gear).

[figuratively]

I just hope we don't get the same treatment we did the last time Blizzard wanted to revisit talents, and balanced rows by nerfing our go-to choices rather than buffing others to bring them in line. Because this isn't a mechanics review, our clunky aspects are going to stay that way.

[Tehr]

I'm gonna use MoB next reclear now.

#1 rank MoB BDK world.

[Philondra]

I just hope we don't get the same treatment we did the last time Blizzard wanted to revisit talents, and balanced rows by nerfing our go-to choices rather than buffing others to bring them in line. Because this isn't a mechanics review, our clunky aspects are going to stay that way.

While I don't like the word "clunky," (what does it mean, anyway?) I agree that they likely won't nerf our go-to talents. We are a functional spec that is capable of tanking anything, but our DPS is low, we have very few ways to express our mastery over the class outside of Death Strike timing, and are on the weaker side for raiding.

I posted a couple days back about what I think our potential changes are, but what I would like to see most is a reworking of Tier 60 talents: a slightly nerfed version of Red Thirst going baseline (1 second/8 or 10 RP spent?), a minor buff to Tombstone, a new talent to replace Red Thirst, and a reworking/removal of Mark of Blood (the easiest solution being having Mark of Blood switch places with Last Dance in the PvP tree.)

I've made my peace with Soulgorge being doomed for all eternity.

[Tojara]

Mark of blood changing places with last dance would be amazing, and while it wouldn't solve our DPS issues, it would certainly help it.

One of the things that bugs me about DRW now that it's brought up is that it really should do more damage. There was a time when it replicated over 50% of the damage it did, now I believe it does roughly 20% and has two copies? I realize it would be incredibly imbalanced in PvP, but you can specifically toggle the ability do do less to players, even in world PvP. It would be nice if it replicated blood drinker and DnD as well, but I suppose that's just getting my hopes up.

To each their own, but I don't really find the spec clunky. As they mentioned, the spec works and we aren't in a state that we literally can't be used. However I am still reeling from the loss of BoS from WoD, or simply the lack of ways to increase my damage through talents like I had in WoD (even if it was just taking BoS).

Level 56 - This tier really doesn't need work aside from numbers adjustment. Heartbreaker being it's old value and blood worms being moved upwards yet again might have it see some use, although the random nature of the talent will mean it's rarely taken

Level 57 - Tier functions fine and SD, albeit rare does get usage. Rapid decomposition really didn't need a damage nerf, and soulgorge really should be replaced with something.

Level 58 - Tier really doesn't work at all. I really don't feel blood tap works with how DKs work this expansion, and the AMS talent is beyond worthless. The main culprit of this tier is ossuary being too strong. If the -5RP on DS was just made to the baseline ability, and ossuary changed to something else (another minor perk above 5 boneshield stacks, or simply more maximum RP) the tier could probably be balanced properly by changing the other talents slightly. My personal recommendation would be to have the AMS talent also reduce the CD of AMS.

Level 60 - Tombstone is okay, if it's not being compared to red thirst. Best course of action would be to slightly nerf red thirst and make it's effect baseline, while replacing it with something else.

Level 75 - All of these work fine.

Level 90 - They mostly work fine. Personally I feel like foul bulwark should be baseline and be replaced with something else. Will of the necropolis is kind of counter productive to how the spec plays, but if we had higher baseline health it wouldn't be as bad of a pick.

Level 100 - Fine, but probably needs number changes. Bonestorm should absolutely do a lot more damage. As it stands you need a decent amount of targets (which is uncommon) for it to even out damage death strike. For the amount of targets you generally run into in PvE raiding content it's just not a good pick, and that's sad.

Aside from that, numbers changes in our traits would help boost our damage.

Problem with what I listed above is that it's a decent amount, and a lot of the issues with the class is baking some of our go-to talents into the spec baseline, and replacing them with something completely new, which is likely something they aren't going to do. Or better yet, just nerfing our go-to talents like they did last tuning cycle and change some of the other ones.

[figuratively]

While I don't like the word "clunky," (what does it mean, anyway?)

Awkward, cumbersome, unintuitive, doesn't flow, more trouble than it's worth. Looking at you, Soulgorge.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

im only 6/10 mythic but thus far there really isnt any reason to talent into making wraith walk last longer, maybe on bot but i havnt fought him on mythic yet, the extra grasp on scorp is great for the smaller adds, its great on bats for tich and the slow helps keep them in ground based aoe when you are avoiding lazors and positioning the frost adds on spellblade

[Tehr]

im only 6/10 mythic but thus far there really isnt any reason to talent into making wraith walk last longer, maybe on bot but i havnt fought him on mythic yet, the extra grasp on scorp is great for the smaller adds, its great on bats for tich and the slow helps keep them in ground based aoe when you are avoiding lazors and positioning the frost adds on spellblade

If we have a talent changer I'll take it on Chronomatic, Trilliax, Spellblade, and Krosus. I've been playing my Druid for Star Augur onwards, but I'd use it on Star Augur and Elisande, too, probably.

[Philondra]

I'm feeling some hope for Soulgorge based on the following blue post:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...-transparency/

The relevant parts are:

"It’s concerning when the community sentiment towards a talent isn’t that it’s overpowered or underpowered, but that everyone is terrified they’re going to have to play that way if it becomes strong."

and

"Anyways, it’s gone. Replacement talent to come."

[Deleted]

I wouldn't hope in the same treatment as other classes. I woulnd't hope in anything general so you won't be disappointed when the official patch notes release.
Blizzard and it's months of radio silence on blood makes it pretty clear they're not really interestend into investing time on this spec. Soulgorge will stay where it is and they'll just futher nerf RD and even SD to make it more appealing (7.1 style).

[Tehr]

Well at the very least if they do change stuff with that row, we should just explain it in the same words they explained their Soul Effigy plans.

Frankly what scares me about Soulgorge is not the playstyle, it's that Blood Boil would no longer apply Blood Plague. I think a good middle-ground that would allow high-risk-high-reward play would be to make it so that Blood Plague cannot be refreshed rather than changing how Blood Boil functions. Another change would be to make it so Soulgorge doesn't consume Blood Plague, but refreshes it instead. Either change would make Soulgorge fit into our rotation quite nicely (albeit perhaps too strong on AoE in the first change), and the playstyle wouldn't feel as clunky (tabbing between targets and casting Death's Caress constantly makes me want to reroll).

It would have to be pretty strong to outweigh Rapid Decomposition and Spectral Deflection and I hesitate to address numbers at this point, but even buffs aside I think the above change would be great.

EDIT: I made a post on the official forums here https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20754365763#1

If you guys think either of the changes I suggest would be nice, please upvote/reply!

[Philondra]

The fundamental problem that Soulgorge has isn't that it's difficult to play. It isn't even that it punishes failure hard--those types of talents are found across a couple different specs. The problem is that it's a talent that has no place on a tank. It enforces rotational rigidity, whereas a tank needs to be able to be flexible.

[Veiled Shadow]

It would have to be pretty strong to outweigh Rapid Decomposition and Spectral Deflection and I hesitate to address numbers at this point, but even buffs aside I think the above change would be great.

It already outweighs them on 1-2 targets, just not by enough to actually be worthwhile.

[Tehr]

The fundamental problem that Soulgorge has isn't that it's difficult to play. It isn't even that it punishes failure hard--those types of talents are found across a couple different specs. The problem is that it's a talent that has no place on a tank. It enforces rotational rigidity, whereas a tank needs to be able to be flexible.

While I agree that what you're saying is a fundamental problem, I see the biggest problem being that it's such a clunky and anti-fun playstyle. If rigidity was the only underlying issue, then surely a change like taking Death Strike off the GCD (so that we can have rigidity in our rotation while still being able to be flexible and react like a tank should) would fix that problem.

Also, even as shallow as it is, the visual update to some of Blood's abilities actually gave Blood a "stronger" feeling (at least to me) in the same way that class fantasy is reinforced by class theme (although frankly I don't give a fuck about class fantasy as long as my spec is fun to play). Even if Death's Caress hit like a truck and our rotation was spamming Death's Caress with a few Death Strikes woven in to heal ourselves, it still wouldn't be as satisfying as the badass and powerful animations of our other abilities.

Also, kind of off-topic, but it irks me to no end that the Sariel guy went and downvoted both responses to him regarding the mechanics behind Soulgorge. I was looking around the battle.net forums a little bit ago and I noticed he does the same thing to any response that doesn't outright agree with him. In the back of my head I realize that a single downvote means absolutely nothing to me and I'll forget it in an hour, but it bugs me nonetheless.

[Deleted]

Just poking here to share with you guys my happines in having completed the mage tower challenge.


Good luck to everyone who's still trying.

It already outweighs them on 1-2 targets, just not by enough to actually be worthwhile.

It outweights them if played perfectly, which may not always be the case considering how rigid the rotation becomes with Soulgorge. And even then, as you said, it's not really worth it.

[Zorachus]

Went back to Tanking this weekend, took some time off, was doing DPS in legion, but rather Tank.

Here's my mixed back of a character different gear right now;
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thdingo/simple

Few questions. Reading the guides online, I am a little confused the more important dps spell or main one to use mostly ? Blood Boil vs Heart Strike.

I pull a boss like this; Taunt + Blood Boil + Marrowrend + Consumption + D+D + Morrowrend (again to keep 5 stacks up ), and then the more commonly used in longer fights Hearth Strike + Blood Boil + Death Strike threesome combo. I do these three after that main pull of the 5 or 6 spells to start off with.

So when your in a long fight, what are the main spells to hit the most ? Is it Hearth Strike #1, Blood Boil #2, Morrowrend #3, and DS just to keep your health up ?

[Deleted]

Went back to Tanking this weekend, took some time off, was doing DPS in legion, but rather Tank.

Here's my mixed back of a character different gear right now;
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...thdingo/simple

Few questions. Reading the guides online, I am a little confused the more important dps spell or main one to use mostly ? Blood Boil vs Heart Strike.

I pull a boss like this; Taunt + Blood Boil + Marrowrend + Consumption + D+D + Morrowrend (again to keep 5 stacks up ), and then the more commonly used in longer fights Hearth Strike + Blood Boil + Death Strike threesome combo. I do these three after that main pull of the 5 or 6 spells to start off with.

So when your in a long fight, what are the main spells to hit the most ? Is it Hearth Strike #1, Blood Boil #2, Morrowrend #3, and DS just to keep your health up ?

For me it's the following order:

DS for heal/about to cap rp
Marrowrend to maintain/build stacks
Blood boil if about too hit 2 charges
Heart strike if none of the above

[Zorachus]

For me it's the following order:

DS for heal/about to cap rp
Marrowrend to maintain/build stacks
Blood boil if about too hit 2 charges
Heart strike if none of the above

Thx, so you prioritize Blood Boil #1 over Heart Strike ?

[Raiz]

Thx, so you prioritize Blood Boil #1 over Heart Strike ?

Everything over heart strike. Marrowrend, consumption, blooddrinker, dnd, procc'ed dnd, you name it.
We mostly use HS after dnd. They're basically filler. But still even in DnD, I'd rather use Blood Boil if I'm about to have 2 charges.
Btw :

I pull a boss like this; Taunt + Blood Boil + Marrowrend + Consumption + D+D + Morrowrend (again to keep 5 stacks up ), and then the more commonly used in longer fights Hearth Strike + Blood Boil + Death Strike threesome combo. I do these three after that main pull of the 5 or 6 spells to start off with.

Not sure if you know, but you wouldn't want to keep at only 5 stack of boneshield. Use marrowrend at 6 stack above all else. You don't want to have a melee swing and then end up having a 45 rp cost deathstrike because you kept it at 5 stacks.

So when your in a long fight, what are the main spells to hit the most ? Is it Hearth Strike #1, Blood Boil #2, Morrowrend #3, and DS just to keep your health up ?

I don't have the exact numbers, but blood boild, marrowrend and death strike are probably doing more dps than HS against ST. Either way, it doesn't matter much because you want to keep those priorities as a dk tank.