New Orleans Liberty Place Monument removed -- other Confederate monuments to follow

[Crissi]

You teach about these people, you don't put up monuments celebrating them and their horrible cause. They were defending their states' right to continue having slavery as an institution and core principle. Full stop. You can try to frame it however you like, but their states' intentions were well defined long before any shooting started.

Trust me, I'm very well aware the states rights thing is largely a load of hogwash lol. I'm just ok with monuments to important generals who weren't actually really onboard with the fire breathers and Jefferson in terms of fighting for slavery.

I also stated earlier I generally don't approve of monument removal, no matter the history involved.

[Mihalik]

Lincolns goal wasnt to end slavery, it was to keep the Union together. It wasnt so simple Sherman was just following the orders of his Commander in Chief, Lee was protecting his homeland. Like I said, it isnt black and white. So while both Generals were great leaders, you could arguably say both fought for a side they didnt believe in. I would have at least been able to sit at a table and drink a beer with Lee, I would not have been with Sherman.

I dont know much about Rommel, so I cant say either way.

The South seceded because Lincoln and the abolitionists gained both the executive and a majority in Congress, they seceded to protect "states rights" (read the right to own other people as property), it was in the confederate constitution and many of their declarations of secession for fuck sake. Holding together the Union would have given the abolitionists the means via a strong federal government to dismantle the institution of slavery by regulating it out of existence, the secession just gave them the means to pass an actual constitutional amendment in the absence of the Southern states.

This idea that the Civil War was fought for any other reason but Slavery is historical whitewashing.

[Altrec]

Seems really inappropriate to be removing monuments(even the unsavory ones) in particular when you don't already have another venue ready for them. Trying to hide the past at the alter of diversity really isn't any different than marauding armies destroying the history of a conquered area.

[draynay]

Why should we look past it? It is the darkest stain on humanity, on this country. Why should we over look it?

I never said it should be overlooked, I said people need to widen their view to see more than just one issue. Understanding history and human nature is more complicated than that.

We fought the Germans to end Nazi aggression. Discovering the scale of the atrocities afterwards just further justified the cause, as much as even today we are trying to understand the scale of the atrocities of slavery in the United States, and we still suffer from both the consequences and the lingering attitudes of racism and discrimination, likely because people don't grasp the scale of it all.

The Japanese-US side of the conflict was somewhat more political in nature, tho knowing what we know today about the Japanese Empire and its treatment of occupied populations and prisoners of war they sure gave the Nazis a run for their money on the shitbag scale.

So what you're saying is that the war was fought for more than one reason. That there were motives at play aside from genocide and its prevention. I'm just saying there were motives at play in the American Civil War aside from slavery, and it is foolish to overlook them.

[Shiny212]

Trust me, I'm very well aware the states rights thing is largely a load of hogwash lol. I'm just ok with monuments to important generals who weren't actually really onboard with the fire breathers and Jefferson in terms of fighting for slavery.

I also stated earlier I generally don't approve of monument removal, no matter the history involved.

Gosh darn they removed this one then. And did it two hundred years earlier than these history haters went to work.

[Mihalik]

If you truly think this you basically admitted to not having full intellectual faculties. Nothing is that simple, and pretending it is just does your argument a disservice.

That's your opinion man.

There is absolutely not a single fucking thing that would somehow nuance that shitshow. One side fucking fought to OWN OTHER PEOPLE AS PROPERTY and to even deny personhood to millions people based solely on the color of their skin, and if you disagree you are essentially an apologist, as bad as a Holocaust denier.

[Crissi]

If they weren't really on board they wouldn't have been generals for the confederacy... It's not like the motivations were hidden.

Their motivations were to defend their state. Nothing else. Their states motivations are another thing, but I'm not gonna hold fire breathers actions against them.

[prwraith]

Good, we shouldn't celebrate treasonists.

[berdrek]

the south lost get over it, all traces of a "conderate state" should be erased, Maybe then we'll stop getting ignorant troglodytes likes the ones that gave us trump. Why must we all suffer because of the souths ignorance. To be quite honest they can keep their confederate states, they can swim in their own shit, i wonder how long until they'd come running back to the north.

[Mihalik]

So what you're saying is that the war was fought for more than one reason. That there were motives at play aside from genocide and its prevention. I'm just saying there were motives at play in the American Civil War aside from slavery, and it is foolish to overlook them.

No. The Civil War was about slavery. Everyone at the time thought it was about fucking slavery, this "there were other reasons" is just bullshit apologists came up with sometime during the early 20th century.

The South seceded to protect the institution of slavery, and the North fought to keep the country together and dismantle it.

[Shiny212]

Are you writing from the future?

200 years earlier as in, those bastards didn't even let it stand until hundreds of years after their war.

[Dug]

Could not care less. Throw it in a museum where it belongs.

[-Nurot]

I don't get how the most "die-hard" patriots of this country tend to be Confederate flag waving rednecks. How is it logical to be flying the BATTLE FLAG of the insurgency and the symbol or America's most notorious domestic terrorists?

Burn all that shit, they lost.

- - - Updated - - -



You think that the fact there was a handful of black slave owners somehow makes the shit more acceptable?

Very much this. What's the phrase all the Republicans are spouting off these days.

"You lost get over it."

[Darkeon]

History is history, regardless of if it's pretty or not.

Add to it. Make it better. Do not pretend the past didn't happen and try to hide it in every way possible.

[draynay]

No. The Civil War was about slavery. Everyone at the time thought it was about fucking slavery, this "there were other reasons" is just bullshit apologists came up with sometime during the early 20th century.

The South seceded to protect the institution of slavery, and the North fought to keep the country together and dismantle it.

Willful ignorance is nothing to be proud of.

[Crissi]

200 years earlier as in, those bastards didn't even let it stand until hundreds of years after their war.

Well that's their right to.

Same thing with NO. It's their right to remove them. I still generally disapprove though, although I already stated I'd be ok with the removal of liberty place one cause that one isn't even historically significant enough.

[cubby]

There is an odd hypocrisy at play here. Mayor Landrieu wants to remember all of our history, yet is actively tearing an important part of it down.

I would prefer if this history were not being put in a corner. All history is important. Sterilizing and purging it will only lead to isolating us from our ancestors, rendering us unable to learn from their mistakes and successes.

Other sources for those who do not care for CNN:
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.s...w_orleans.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/u...te-statue.html
http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orlea...3d8222c65.html

There is a difference between remembering history and honoring it. No one is taking these events out of the history books or advocating that they not be taught - they just don't want to memorialize a horrible part of the city's history.

[Crissi]

No. The Civil War was about slavery. Everyone at the time thought it was about fucking slavery, this "there were other reasons" is just bullshit apologists came up with sometime during the early 20th century.

The South seceded to protect the institution of slavery, and the North fought to keep the country together and dismantle it.

What the higher classes and lower classes thought was very different. Lower class Southern whites legit thought it was about their home, not slaves cause the Plantation owners spun the shot out of it. Northern people thought it was to retain the Union and not allow other states to leave. Slavery was a distant secondary concern to these people.

[Shiny212]

Well that's their right to.

Same thing with NO. It's their right to remove them. I still generally disapprove though, although I already stated I'd be ok with the removal of liberty place one cause that one isn't even historically significant enough.

Well, I admire your conviction then. At least you didn't object to the Nazi monument being no worse than confederate idolization.

I for one have no issue with ode's to Hitler being removed just as I have no issue with the confederate flag being put in a museum where it belongs. I don't think they'll stop teaching the history any time soon.

[Mihalik]

XD your a riot. Noone would ever take your argument seriously. Your basically an alarmist who deal in hyperbole vrs reality.

Oh...so you are effectively a slavery apologist? Do you also attend KKK marches and cross burnings while you wave your Confederate flag? Wear the flag patches while you fantasize about shooting up black churches? Or you are the "more nuanced" racist like that Richard Spencer guy who wears nice suits, holds rallies nice hotels and only occasionally throws up a Sieg Heil or two?

If you think there is any nuance or justification for the Civil War on the Confederate side and their monuments should be allowed to stand, I have zero respect for you as a human being.

[Infracted]