[TV] Deep Space 9

[Ilikegreenfire]

That actually wasn't the issue. Kate is a great actress. The issue was the writing as I pointed out above. Even the best actor can only do so much when they are given a bad script. This was remediated in later seasons once she started demanding more control over her character (basically vetoing the writers - saying Janeway would never do that, take that out).

Ya it wasn't Kate, she was the only one who held the character togeather. I think in an interview she said because of the chaotic writing of her character she basically started to portrey her as someone with ptsd, you can see this especially in the episode where they pass through darkspace, and she goes kind of crazy because she is let alone with her thoughts with no crisis to occupy her. That's the one reason Janeway ended up making since as a character, she was deeply messed up.

[the game]

Has to be trolling. Enterprise has some of the most unrelatable characters. Some downright insulting in many episodes. Some of the most inhuman take on the prime directive that makes even TNG season 1 and 2 laugh.

I'm not trolling. You don't agree with me so I'm wrong?

[minteK917]

Ya it wasn't Kate, she was the only one who held the character togeather. I think in an interview she said because of the chaotic writing of her character she basically started to portrey her as someone with ptsd, you can see this especially in the episode where they pass through darkspace, and she goes kind of crazy because she is let alone with her thoughts with no crisis to occupy her. That's the one reason Janeway ended up making since as a character, she was deeply messed up.

Coulda been worse, at least she wasent Chekotay.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not trolling. You don't agree with me so I'm wrong?

Yes, you are. You can try to claim the room is the most relate able movie, wouldnt make it true. The only thing i can relate to with enterprise is wanting to rub gel on T'Pol.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Enterprise has some of the most unrelatable characters. Some downright insulting in many episodes. Some of the most inhuman take on the prime directive that makes even TNG season 1 and 2 laugh.

Indeed, Travis and Malcom were the only remotely empathetic characters. For an officer who was supposed to unite the Federation in the first place, Archer was... underwhelming. T'Pol was... whatever that was. Trip was failure of a friend, Hoshi was... there. Phlox didn't get enough characterization outside of quirky, friendly ship doctor.

[yetgdhfgh]

Indeed, Travis and Malcom were the only remotely empathetic characters. For an officer who was supposed to unite the Federation in the first place, Archer was... underwhelming. T'Pol was... whatever that was. Trip was failure of a friend, Hoshi was... there. Phlox didn't get enough characterization outside of quirky, friendly ship doctor.

Phlox did get his moment when he had to treat that patient who his race had mass murdered. I forget what the race was called but it was his episode by far!

[Ilikegreenfire]

Coulda been worse, at least she wasent Chekotay.

Ya she did the best with what she was given. Tuvoc should have taken command within a season or two, but Janeway just had to make Chekotay commander.

And there was no fucking way Chekotay would have taken over.

Hell the ech probably would probably have been the best person for the job but they wouldn't have let him take command.

[Stormspark]

Coulda been worse, at least she wasent Chekotay.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes, you are. You can try to claim the room is the most relate able movie, wouldnt make it true. The only thing i can relate to with enterprise is wanting to rub gel on T'Pol.

Robert Beltran HATED Chakotay. The producers hired a supposed "native american expert" to design him that was actually a con artist, that watched a few cowboy movies. He actually tried to get kicked off the show several times, by just demanding outrageous sums of money to renew his contract, but they just kept handing over the money. He finally said screw it and finished off the series, basically just phoning it in by the end. I can't blame him, Chakotay was one of the worst written characters in any show ever. The only upside of it for him was that he did like his co-stars and he did like some of the experiences he had on set (he just hated the writing and the character).

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...chakotay_from/

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Robert Beltran HATED Chakotay. The producers hired a supposed "native american expert" to design him that was actually a con artist, that watched a few cowboy movies. He actually tried to get kicked off the show several times, by just demanding outrageous sums of money to renew his contract, but they just kept handing over the money. He finally said screw it and finished off the series, basically just phoning it in by the end. I can't blame him, Chakotay was one of the worst written characters in any show ever. The only upside of it for him was that he did like his co-stars and he did like some of the experiences he had on set (he just hated the writing and the character).

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...chakotay_from/

Wow, thanks for sharing this article! It's a very intriguing read (still reading it).

[Stormspark]

Wow, thanks for sharing this article! It's a very intriguing read (still reading it).

Even more interesting: the "consultant" who was hired to design Chakotay was actually a con artist. The producers were actually going for what they thought was a legit non-stereotypical Native American character. Unfortunately, said con artist got all his "Native American" knowledge from cowboy movies and knew nothing about them. The guy claimed Native American ancestry and used it to sell his books, but he in fact had no Native American ancestry AT ALL (his real name was Jack Marks).

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...-who-wont-die/

[Ilikegreenfire]

Robert Beltran HATED Chakotay. The producers hired a supposed "native american expert" to design him that was actually a con artist, that watched a few cowboy movies. He actually tried to get kicked off the show several times, by just demanding outrageous sums of money to renew his contract, but they just kept handing over the money. He finally said screw it and finished off the series, basically just phoning it in by the end. I can't blame him, Chakotay was one of the worst written characters in any show ever. The only upside of it for him was that he did like his co-stars and he did like some of the experiences he had on set (he just hated the writing and the character).

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...chakotay_from/

Ya he really had nothing to work with. Chakotay did two things the whole series. 1 Be a submissive beta to Janeway, and, 2 Chime in with something native american related every so often. i mean it honestly it felt a little raciest at times. Like the only work put into Chakotay's characterwas make him native american, and make sure he never second guesses are female captain. Kirk/spock riker/picard sisko/kira/warf all had some tension at times, and you felt like if they had two the commanders would dissobay their captains orders, Chakotay felt like a neutered dog obeying its master.

[Stormspark]

Ya he really had nothing to work with. Chakotay did two things the whole series. 1 Be a submissive beta to Janeway, and, 2 Chime in with something native american related every so often. i mean it honestly it felt a little raciest at times. Like the only work put into Chakotay's characterwas make him native american, and make sure he never second guesses are female captain. Kirk/spock riker/picard sisko/kira/warf all had some tension at times, and you felt like if they had two the commanders would dissobay their captains orders, Chakotay felt like a neutered dog obeying its master.

Yeah, it was racist...because the consultant they hired to design the character was a con artist who only knew hollywood stereotypes of native americans.

[Hammerfest]

You thought DS9 was more original than Enterprise?

Is that surprising in some way?

- - - Updated - - -

DS9 is my favorite Star Trek show. It was less preachy than TNG, and the characters were more interesting and compelling to me (except for Data. No one is better than Data.)

For me, it's Worf. No one is better than Worf.

- - - Updated - - -

Has to be trolling. Enterprise has some of the most unrelatable characters. Some downright insulting in many episodes. Some of the most inhuman take on the prime directive that makes even TNG season 1 and 2 laugh.

I disagree on all points made. The whole point of ENT was that it did NOT feature Roddenberry-style intellectual supermen like those of the 23rd and 24th centuries. I found most of them far more instantly relatable than any other cast in Star Trek. Also, there was no "prime directive" in the era of ENT... again, one of the points of the series.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Yeah, it was racist...because the consultant they hired to design the character was a con artist who only knew hollywood stereotypes of native americans.

ya im just surprised the writers didn't realize it or atleast didnt realize how bad of a caracter he was shaping up to be.

[Stormcall]

I disagree on all points made. The whole point of ENT was that it did NOT feature Roddenberry-style intellectual supermen like those of the 23rd and 24th centuries. I found most of them far more instantly relatable than any other cast in Star Trek. Also, there was no "prime directive" in the era of ENT... again, one of the points of the series.

DS9 was less Roddenberry like than Enterprise. It's generally believed Roddenberry would have HATED "In the Pale Moonlight", which is widely regarded as among the best Trek episodes of any series(I'd say there's a good chance that it's probably THE best).

[Hammerfest]

DS9 was less Roddenberry like than Enterprise. It's generally believed Roddenberry would have HATED "In the Pale Moonlight", which is widely regarded as among the best Trek episodes of any series(I'd say there's a good chance that it's probably THE best).

I agree, but you also have to remember that about half of DS9's cast were not playing Starfleet personnel. That was one way they got around the characters not having to adhere to Roddenberry's principles. But the Starfleet personnel were still the aforementioned "Roddenberry intellectual supermen" on DS9. Roddenberry wouldn't have liked DS9 mostly because the last four seasons showed the Federation at war. I'm also sure Roddenberry would have hated the ENT episode "Damage" as much as DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight."

What I think DS9 proved was that Star Trek could go beyond the limitations Roddenberry imposed upon it and still be successful.

[Stormspark]

DS9 was less Roddenberry like than Enterprise. It's generally believed Roddenberry would have HATED "In the Pale Moonlight", which is widely regarded as among the best Trek episodes of any series(I'd say there's a good chance that it's probably THE best).

Enterprise actually reminded me a lot of Stargate (in the first two seasons anyway). Later on it slowly evolved into a TOS prequel. Enterprise did have this really badly written episode called "Dear Doctor" where the characters became extremely hypocritical and did exactly to another civilization what they accused the Vulcans of having done to Earth. Aside from that, the series was pretty good, it was definitely a big step above Voyager, though not as good as TNG or DS9.

DS9 was less Roddenberry like than Enterprise. It's generally believed Roddenberry would have HATED "In the Pale Moonlight", which is widely regarded as among the best Trek episodes of any series(I'd say there's a good chance that it's probably THE best).

Agreed, that was an absolutely amazing episode. I have to give Roddenberry credit where credit is due for creating Star Trek, but his insistence on idealism was dumb, and I'm glad he was kicked to the back burner during TNG so they could make some great episodes. He was a lot like Lucas come to think of it. Great ideas, but needs to be reigned in by other people and not given absolute control.

[Stormcall]

I agree, but you also have to remember that about half of DS9's cast were not playing Starfleet personnel. That was one way they got around the characters not having to adhere to Roddenberry's principles. But the Starfleet personnel were still the aforementioned "Roddenberry intellectual supermen" on DS9. Roddenberry wouldn't have liked DS9 mostly because the last four seasons showed the Federation at war.

Not just showing the Federation at war, but showing Federation intelligence agencies doing shady shit, the Federation basically becoming dictator-like in fear of the changelings, a Fed captain(Sisko) being okay with using assassination to bring allies into their war...

[Hammerfest]

Not just showing the Federation at war, but showing Federation intelligence agencies doing shady shit, the Federation basically becoming dictator-like in fear of the changelings, a Fed captain(Sisko) being okay with using assassination to bring allies into their war...

When did the Federation become dictator-like during the Dominion War?

Also, Sisko was not "okay with" the assassination of Senator Vrenak, clearly. That's why he hit Garrak when he found out about it.

[Revik]

I am not sure how I feel about Deep Space 9. Mostly spent about 2 weeks binge watching all the episodes so I guess that says something. The characters I generally disliked watching was Odo episodes. I didn't particularly find his story and changelings all that interesting. Which is strange because I liked Data and Doctor episodes. I generally like Garak and Sisko episodes and I like the Bajoran and Kardasian dynamic. The rest I felt were a little meh.

Voyager I do not like.

I did like Enterprise. The first episodes I thought were boring but as time went on and you got to know the characters better it became better. Was really sorry to see it end the way it did. Worst ENDING EVER.

[Berengil]

TOS: god-tier

TNG: also god-tier

DS9: my friends and I called it deep yawn 9; so. dmn. boring. Until the Dominion War and the pah Wraiths

Voyager: mostly boring, a few bright spots

Enterprise: crap. utter and total crap. I had to force myself to finish the first season. didn't bother watching it after that.