Subtlety PTR Notes

[Seawolph]

NEW The effectiveness of your Symbols of Death is increased by 50%.

Does this mean we get 4 CPs for SS/BS/GB and 15% more crit on Evis from the proc? or do we get 2x buffs? I haven't had a chance to log on to the PTR today, but I know the gear is going to be available on Flaskataur this afternoon for the LFR testing.

I've been playing around with a Dark Shadows build that seemed to flow pretty well even if I was butchering the opener and some of the burst setups, I was still getting 740k steady state (220mil+ fight length) at ilvl 911 with Ravenholdt + Shoulders. The build was 3110022. For my dance/burst, I would start with 6 CP, SoD, Dance, Nightblade, SS, GB, Evis. I have to look at the numbers more closely, but if NB really did get nerfed hard enough, it might be worth doing an Evis, SS, GB, Evis rotation instead. That way one of them would be finality'd and you could line it up so it's the first one for a big crit. I've also been toying with the idea of using MoSub for 10% bigger bursts rather than gloomblade. GB ends up being one of the top two damage sources if I use it on a long fight, but 10% burst is an extra 400k on a finality Evis crit, larger SS, etc. That final judgement would probably have to go to the sims. Fuu on Discord was saying that GB just doesn't sim as high as MoS currently.

Thoughts?

[Sharkcrap]

, I would start with 6 CP, SoD, Dance, Nightblade, SS, GB, Evis

I used the same build but I wouldnt use my first nightblade after a dance because you'll just waste a global and nightblade deals increased damage during shadow dance but when you leave it the damage goes back down even if you casted it during shadow dance.

[Mafic]

i'M sorry but what choices did it promote exactly?

all it did is reduce your effective rupture duration, and make it random as well

We will have to agree to disagree. Because to me Blade Twisting was a lot more interesting than what they had at the start of Legion which is using Shadow Dance charge system.

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Who's asking for a buff? The fact that there is little else going on other than sitting there pressing 2 and then 3 or, conversely, not pressing 2 and waiting for an RNG CP and then pressing 3. It doesn't have to be crazy damage obviously and that was never the intent in my post. It's a bit of a contentious topic because some people want to not have the downtime as it stands between dances. It's more bland than Assassination at this point and that's not fun, in my opinion.

The problem is Blizz wants to appease both sides. One side wants Shadow Dance to be impactful again with downtime between charges and the other side wants the spec to be dynamic and not Assassination lite with shadow dance charges.

[elfporn]

We will have to agree to disagree. Because to me Blade Twisting was a lot more interesting than what they had at the start of Legion which is using Shadow Dance charge system.

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The problem is Blizz wants to appease both sides. One side wants Shadow Dance to be impactful again with downtime between charges and the other side wants the spec to be dynamic and not Assassination lite with shadow dance charges.

Blade twisting moved the rotation towards using rupture every other finisher. This was bad gameplay - players don't want to have to refresh a DoT every 5-10 seconds. I personally, even between dances, had to refresh rupture after every 1, maybe 2, eviscerates.

Most rogues probably didn't have such high multistrike, and may not have experienced rupture being so short, but that was the direction blade twisting was going as gear got better.

[Seawolph]

I used the same build but I wouldnt use my first nightblade after a dance because you'll just waste a global and nightblade deals increased damage during shadow dance but when you leave it the damage goes back down even if you casted it during shadow dance.

It actually snapshots the Dark Shadows, NS, and MoS dmg for Nightblade, so your whole Nightblade does 30% + 12% + 10% more. I was just testing it last night. You would have to compare this to evis to determine if you should cast it during dance or not. My bet is that the best way to do it is Evis/NB dance with Finality:NB and Evis/Evis dance with no Finality:NB.

Anyone who thinks Sub has lost it's finesse is mental.

I was toying around with openers also. The build: 1110022 + Insignia + Mantle
MfD -> Nightblade -> Dance -> SS, SS -> Goremaw -> Evis
BS to 5 -> Vanish -> SS -> SoD -> Dance -> Evis (F) -> SS -> BS -> Nightblade (F)

This sets up a huge vanish crit dance set with finality Evis and NB. The vanish dance could be set up every 1:45 for a huge burst. Perhaps worth setting up both finalities for it again as well because it just makes everything crit. One thing to note, the BS during dance is purely for CP generation. Without T19 and a lucky proc of Shadow Techniques you won't have 6 CPs for the final NB. This is true for all of your filler dances too, you need that BS for CPs during dance (buffed by SoD ofc).

[Deleted]

Nightblade doesnt snapshot, pls test it again. The number you get when you mouseover the debuff doesnt update, but the actual dmg numbers in the combat log show that it doesnt snapshot.

Edit: Tested it againt just to make sure and the 12% of Nightstalker actually snapshots, because it buffs your abilities dmg and not your current dmg (just like it buffs the Rupture from stealth of assasination rogues). But Dark Shadows and MoS do not.

[Seawolph]

Nightblade doesnt snapshot, pls test it again. The number you get when you mouseover the debuff doesnt update, but the actual dmg numbers in the combat log show that it doesnt snapshot.

Edit: Tested it againt just to make sure and the 12% of Nightstalker actually snapshots, because it buffs your abilities dmg and not your current dmg (just like it buffs the Rupture from stealth of assasination rogues). But Dark Shadows and MoS do not.

I'll have to test again this evening as I was definitely looking at the icon not the combat log, but I wonder if it's a bug and they'll fix with the icon or if it's a bug where it should be snapshotting and it's not. This probably makes it so that Evis is always best during dance. So the rotation becomes Dance, Evis, SS, BS/GB, Evis.

[Raidenwrath]

I don't know if it's a bug, but thanks to Dance no longer being on GCD there is a nice interaction with DfA. You can activate Dance right before the Evis part of DfA hits and get the +30% dmg buff from Deep Shadows. This allows the player to utilize the full Dance duration for other abilities since DfA hits at second 0.1 and you can instantly use your next ability.
After some testing you can now use a buffed DfA Evis every 30s (SoD cooldown, 25s with setbonus) with no loss of Shadow Dance duration. Mine crits for over 4m and for over 6m with the Shuriken Storm Buff, having a ~90% crit chance (ilvl 909, no buffs).

I hope this stays a feature.

[Grimgrin]

Speaking of AoE changes, how do they fell on the PTR? Are you still Nightblading everything that moves, or did Blizz's goal of having us focus on ST during AOE situations come to fruition?

[Raidenwrath]

As far as I can tell, while not tested, we are the new Assa in AoE situations.
Nightblade deals about the same dmg as Evis now and since Shuriken Storm boosts our Evis we kinda dont want to switch from the main target. We will excel at AoE single target focus, suck at 2-target cleave (Assas new forte) and get better with every additional foe we can hit, up to 5.

[Seawolph]

I don't know if it's a bug, but thanks to Dance no longer being on GCD there is a nice interaction with DfA. You can activate Dance right before the Evis part of DfA hits and get the +30% dmg buff from Deep Shadows. This allows the player to utilize the full Dance duration for other abilities since DfA hits at second 0.1 and you can instantly use your next ability.
After some testing you can now use a buffed DfA Evis every 30s (SoD cooldown, 25s with setbonus) with no loss of Shadow Dance duration. Mine crits for over 4m and for over 6m with the Shuriken Storm Buff, having a ~90% crit chance (ilvl 909, no buffs).

I hope this stays a feature.

Oh my god, this is amazing. I'm going to check this out tonight! I hope it stays a feature too, because it could make DFA worth taking for ST over MfD. I saw that they fixed shadow dance so it clears the buff when you stealth. I guess they wanted to eliminate the 11 second shoulder/stealth proc that makes our damage competitive right now so they could balance it. I wonder if they'll tweak this mechanic later.

[Mafic]

Blade twisting moved the rotation towards using rupture every other finisher. This was bad gameplay - players don't want to have to refresh a DoT every 5-10 seconds. I personally, even between dances, had to refresh rupture after every 1, maybe 2, eviscerates.

Most rogues probably didn't have such high multistrike, and may not have experienced rupture being so short, but that was the direction blade twisting was going as gear got better.

I don't see it as bad game play as Sub is THE spec that focuses on finishers. Plus, most people in this thread and other forums are complaining about Sub returning to Backstab oriented gameplay and doing less finishers.

[Naiattavain]

Subtlety
Shadow Dance: Now grants all the benefits of Stealth for 4 seconds, up from 3 seconds.
Symbols of Death: No longer requires Stealth. Now costs 25 Energy, down from 35 Energy. Now has a 30 second cooldown, up from 10 seconds.


Okay, not requiring stealth is great, but that cooldown leaves something to be desired. I know they said that they wanted to move away from the focus on Symbols of Death, but keeping it as a focus but also adding a cooldown doesn't fix the problem.

yea you idiots cant seem to balance the rogue so i stopped playing it all together.

Infracted.

[Mafic]

Hopefully today there are positive changes to Sub on PTR.

[Lazuli]

I like how they are trying to put sub back to what it was originally, it may be too late though they completely demolished this spec and made it spammy in Legion.

I will have to look on PTR and play it.

One thing that would solidify the spec for me would be putting a talent for backstab to require being behind your target again but increase its damage permanently. I don't like the current mechanic, who knows if I'm actually behind the target due to lag or constant turning. Still feels braindead. Adding hemo or shiv (that gives a CP) back would be even better.

Speaking in terms of pvp

[Jaronicity]

WTB sub notes

[Mafic]

Unless I am missing it I think Blizz is "done" with Rogues for patch 7.2.5 lol.

[shaunika123]

Unless I am missing it I think Blizz is "done" with Rogues for patch 7.2.5 lol.

there's still more than a month before it launches, so i'd doubt it.

it's just that they like to stealth hotfix us 2 days after a patch is out, so i guess they're holding out their big stuff for that

[Shivers1]

there's still more than a month before it launches, so i'd doubt it.

it's just that they like to stealth hotfix us 2 days after a patch is out, so i guess they're holding out their big stuff for that

I don't know, I'm getting really strong legion alpha/beta déjà vu here.

There are way more specs that are actually popular that need significant attention right now, so chances are they're going to funnel their resources into what's going to benefit most players and ignore us as usual.

[Raidenwrath]

I wouldn't mind if they are done. They gave us an option to turn permanent SS spamming into more meaningful burst windows, got rid of that SS blink and gave us two charges of Shadow Step. Now it's just number tweaking, which will be done 1-2 weaks before the patch.

I miss the Sprint->Vanish, but I'll get over it.