How high of a minimum wage would you be willing to tolerate?

[Goatfish]

Because if the minimum wage is raised your's is effectively lowered. In Sweden a janitor earns about two thirds of that of a fresh engineer with a master of science. The work of that engineer is by far worth more than that in comparision to the janitor. Did I mention this was before taxes btw? Most people with a proper education pay around 50% in total taxes since a bigger chunk of your income is taxed when you pass that of, let's say, a bartender's salary.

I agree that people should have a decent life if they have a job but being ignorant to the fact that everyone's money is less valuable when everyone gets more is just ignorant.

You think that until you lose your janitors.

You do realize there are Federal Pell Loans and State level Loans that are given to people who go to college and need Financial Assistance....

I never understood this cant afford to pay....

I literally had no money but worked full time at Best Buy and managed to graduate with my BSEE using Federal Pell Grants..

I really hate people who say this. When I say "I don't have money for college", it means "I don't want to take out a 30-40 YEAR LOAN to get a piece of paper that doesn't really mean anything."

Besides, in my own case, what am I going to get a degree in? I'm a butcher by trade, I enjoy my work, and I already spent years apprenticing in it. Why is it required to go into debt for most of your life to get some scrap of paper that says you are now successful and deserve more.

No. If you want a decent life go get a grown up's job.
If you want to make a career flipping burgers then go rent a apartment with 3 other burger flippers.

A grown up's job eh? Who are you to decide that? What about bakers, butchers, farmers, etc, is that not a grown up's job? There is a multitude of jobs that barely pay the bills out there. Your hospital "housekeepers" making sure the place is actually clean and not giving you more diseases just by stepping inside only make 16-20k a year. I think that job is pretty damn important, should have hazard pay and doesn't, and requires knowledge of sanitation techniques few people here probably know even exist. Let alone the fact that its disgusting and hard work.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Owning a house and having kids isn't a luxury. A gold toilet is luxury. A Ferrari is luxury.

Owning a house is a luxury. Having a place where you can live and feel secure, while security itself is not explicitly a right, is not a luxury. These two things are not synonymous.

Again with this luxury thing. What you consider luxury is basic human needs.

I ascribe almost entirely to what most Canadians would define as basic needs (using Stats Can's socio-economic databases):
> Food
> Shelter
> Clothing
> Health care (I would further expand this to include dentistry and eye-care, which have been removed)
> Personal care (ie: hygienic environment, ability to be hygienic)
> Essential furnishings (ex: bed)
> Transportation (to work) / Communication (family, friends, work; through land-line if the government were to subsidize for it)
> Laundry (you cannot be presentable or socially healthy if you are destitute)
> Home insurance
> Education (easy access; affordable; flexible)

Millennials are blamed for not owning homes and not having enough sex to procreate children. Now we have an aging population with no children in sight, and Millennials are either living with parents or relatives. Without enough opportunity for better paying jobs, Millennials are stuck with low wage jobs. If they have Bachelor's degree's and work at StarBucks, that's not the persons fault. That's a failure of society.

Millennials are blamed for not being able to afford homes when they demand homes and are working low-income jobs, the pointing to inflation even though the instances they are pointing to are generally incorrect (ie: I could afford a house working as a barista at Starbucks if this were 1970 [hint: no you couldn't]).
Millennials are not blamed for not having enough sex. The average age of first births has been decreasing over time.
If you have a bachelors degree in something that is not wanted by the private sector, that is on the individual who has made the choice. They were not forced to get that degree, and are now in debt due to poor life choices. This is only a failure of society insofar as society does not enforce education such that it meets the needs of the workforce. That is, society is only at fault if you demand society make your choices for you.

[Tehshocka]

You think that until you lose your janitors.



I really hate people who say this. When I say "I don't have money for college", it means "I don't want to take out a 30-40 YEAR LOAN to get a piece of paper that doesn't really mean anything."

Besides, in my own case, what am I going to get a degree in? I'm a butcher by trade, I enjoy my work, and I already spent years apprenticing in it. Why is it required to go into debt for most of your life to get some scrap of paper that says you are now successful and deserve more.



A grown up's job eh? Who are you to decide that? What about bakers, butchers, farmers, etc, is that not a grown up's job? There is a multitude of jobs that barely pay the bills out there. Your hospital "housekeepers" making sure the place is actually clean and not giving you more diseases just by stepping inside only make 16-20k a year. I think that job is pretty damn important, should have hazard pay and doesn't, and requires knowledge of sanitation techniques few people here probably know even exist. Let alone the fact that its disgusting and hard work.

You do know the difference between a GRANT and a LOAN right?

[zEmini]

Hey that's funny because they DO pay fast food workers over the equivalent of US $15 an hour in Australia and guess what, you're not gonna believe it and people who are educated don't care because facts have nothing to do with your stupid beliefs: the cost of a fucking fast food burger is only a fraction of a dollar higher, if that, compared to here.

You literally don't know the first thing about economics, when people have money to spend they spend it and that's what makes business prosper and creates jobs.

The fact of the matter is that actual real world wages have not seen any increase at all in 40 years or more, if wages reflected dollar value and inflation minimum wage would be over $20 an hour in the USA, that was the equivalent of what people were making in the 60's at a entry level minimum wage job you brain washed idiot. Enough to pay their rent and the rest of their bills and then some or put them self through college.

Go ahead and infract me, no fucks given.

Completely different market and economy. There are a lot more variables to consider. Backfire effect in action. Try again.

[Tijuana]

The other day, I was catching up on the wage situation in Canada and came across this bit of data.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/queb...-11-25-an-hour



Phew, what a doozy. Quebec's minimum wage is in-line with the Canadian average but still much lower than some of the other provinces such as Alberta, where the Oil & Gas industry continues to give 'Texas North' a massive edge in salary incentives -- up to 40% more.

Since this is an international forum, there are bound to be conflicting opinions on the matter. Not that I'm looking to exploit this in any way, shape, or form.

Are you FOR or AGAINST a minimum wage increase in your area of living?

To answer the question of how high of a minimum wage we should tolerate, we need to know three other questions first.

How much unemployment are you willing to tolerate?

How much inflation are you willing to tolerate?

How much climbing of the social ladder, are you willing to delay for unskilled workers?

[Hotmail]

To answer the question of how high of a minimum wage we should tolerate, we need to know three other questions first.

How much unemployment are you willing to tolerate?

The correlation between a minimum wage increase and the overall rate of unemployment is very thin — if at all existent. According to the US Department of Labor, it all evens out, since an increase in the minimum wage decreases employee turnover along with the expenses associated with hiring and training new workers.

How much inflation are you willing to tolerate?

In certain areas of the world, inflation has already made the living conditions un-bear-able. Literally, wildlife will be poking holes in your overpriced single bedroom apartment and you won't have the money to really do anything about it, since your purchasing power has fallen too far behind inflation.

How much climbing of the social ladder, are you willing to delay for unskilled workers?

Social mobility in the US. Good one, budd.

[Tijuana]

The correlation between a minimum wage increase and the overall rate of unemployment is very thin — if at all existent. According to the US Department of Labor, it all evens out, since an increase in the minimum wage decreases employee turnover along with the expenses associated with hiring and training new workers.


In certain areas of the world, inflation has already made the living conditions un-bear-able. Literally, wildlife will be poking holes in your overpriced single bedroom apartment and you won't have the money to really do anything about it, since your purchasing power has fallen too far behind inflation.


Social mobility in the US. Good one, budd.

What happens to unemployment, if you set the minimum wage at $100 an hour? It goes up, right?

If purchasing power in relation to inflation is a concern, why would you want MORE inflation, via raising minimum wage?

Social mobility in the US is fantastic. Only 8% remain in the same tax bracket from one census to the next (10 yrs). Only 3% remain in the bottom bracket their entire lives. What are you on about?

[Radaney]

Quebecs minimum wage is higher than the UKs, that's hilarious.

[Goatfish]

You do know the difference between a GRANT and a LOAN right?

You are aware there is a limited number of grants and that most people will need to take a LOAN right? There is a reason that: "Americans owe over $1.4 trillion in student loan debt, spread out among about 44 million borrowers. That’s about $620 billion more than the total U.S. credit card debt."

https://studentloanhero.com/student-...bt-statistics/

"88 percent of graduates who received Pell Grants had student loans in 2012, with an average balance of $31,200"

It's almost like you people think I'm just pulling stuff out of my ass and have no idea what I'm talking about. I may be a lowly butcher, but I'm not in MENSA because I'm stupid and they took pity on me. If people like you stopped spreading misinformation and reinforcing this path of lies that wrings every spare coin out of your lower class in order to chase a dream, perhaps this world might get somewhere.

The American dream is nothing but that. It's a dream, a falsehood put in place to give people hope and keep them in line. Preferably an assembly line.

- - - Updated - - -

What happens to unemployment, if you set the minimum wage at $100 an hour? It goes up, right?

If purchasing power in relation to inflation is a concern, why would you want MORE inflation, via raising minimum wage?

Social mobility in the US is fantastic. Only 8% remain in the same tax bracket from one census to the next (10 yrs). Only 3% remain in the bottom bracket their entire lives. What are you on about?

I'd like to see your sources on this, because as far as I know:

According to a 2012 Pew Economic Mobility Project study[14] 43% of children born into the bottom quintile remain in that bottom quintile as adults. Similarly, 40% of children raised in the top quintile will remain there as adults. Looking at larger moves, only 4% of those raised in the bottom quintile moved up to the top quintile as adults. Around twice as many (8%) children born into the top quintile fell to the bottom.[14] 37% of children born into the top quintile will fall below the middle. These findings have led researchers to conclude that "opportunity structures create and determine future generations' chances for success. Hence, our lot in life is at least partially determined by where we grow up, and this is partially determined by where our parents grew up, and so on."[15]

So basically, as time is going on, people stay in mostly the same as they grew up, with minor chances to actually raise more than a single rung up or down in your lifetime. If anything, more of the people born on top are moving down to the middle or lower and not being replaced because they are being eaten up by other big fish.

[Sunseeker]

not always true, I went to school at a college for an IT diploma, now I had the general skills to do Deskside support, server administrator, network administrator, security analyst and many other positions.

You went to college and got a degree. You didn't get vocational training.

[Vash The Stampede]

They were not forced to get that degree, and are now in debt due to poor life choices.

If you remember being in high school, everyone said get college education. You want a future? You get education. They literally have colleges and universities attend high schools to promote you going to College.

This is only a failure of society insofar as society does not enforce education such that it meets the needs of the workforce. That is, society is only at fault if you demand society make your choices for you.

Lets say a degree in whatever doesn't land you a job, then what? You're in debt. You're living from paycheck to paycheck. You can't afford to get the education needed for the workforce. Then what? You get a minimum wage job hoping that one day someone will hire you for more than minimum wage. Which either happens or you become Al Bundy.

[Magical Mudcrab]

If you remember being in high school, everyone said get college education. You want a future? You get education. They literally have colleges and universities attend high schools to promote you going to College.

Most of the highest paying jobs require a College or University education; however, getting a degree does not mean the degree is in demand. If you get a degree in feminist dance therapy, don't expect to be as in-demand or highly paid as an Engineer.

In case anyone still misses the point, not all education is equal. Just because you have a degree does not mean your degree is worth anything. If you get a degree that has no value or is not in demand, you have chosen to take on the risks associated with that.

Lets say a degree in whatever doesn't land you a job, then what? You're in debt. You're living from paycheck to paycheck. You can't afford to get the education needed for the workforce. Then what? You get a minimum wage job hoping that one day someone will hire you for more than minimum wage. Which either happens or you become Al Bundy.

The "then what" is you go into the workforce with whatever skills you have and look for bursaries or loans that can help pay for education in a career that will move you out of this paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle. It sucks, but you live with the choices you've made. If you have one shot and squander it, that's on the individual. The only people who deserve sympathy in education are the people who want to pursue higher education in a field they know will pay well, but are unable to due to financial constraints.

[Chaelexi]

You went to college and got a degree. You didn't get vocational training.

I did not get a degree, it is a diploma. Things may be different in Canada. It is the equivalent as a technical certificate.

[Vash The Stampede]

Most of the highest paying jobs require a College or University education; however, getting a degree does not mean the degree is in demand. If you get a degree in feminist dance therapy, don't expect to be as in-demand or highly paid as an Engineer.

In case anyone still misses the point, not all education is equal. Just because you have a degree does not mean your degree is worth anything. If you get a degree that has no value or is not in demand, you have chosen to take on the risks associated with that.

Since people like to joke about degrees, exactly what degrees do they have? Would be an interesting topic to really see how many people have a degree in feminist dance therapy, or safe space specialist.

The "then what" is you go into the workforce with whatever skills you have and look for bursaries or loans that can help pay for education in a career that will move you out of this paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle. It sucks, but you live with the choices you've made. If you have one shot and squander it, that's on the individual. The only people who deserve sympathy in education are the people who want to pursue higher education in a field they know will pay well, but are unable to due to financial constraints.

What about those people. What do you do?

[Berengil]

Owning a house and having kids isn't a luxury. A gold toilet is luxury. A Ferrari is luxury.

A stable place to live is necessary, but that doesn't necessarily mean owning a house.

Kids? Absolutely a luxury. Shelter/food/water/clothing/healthcare aren't luxuries. Everything else is.

[Vash The Stampede]

A stable place to live is necessary, but that doesn't necessarily mean owning a house.

Well no not owning a home, but a place you could call a home.

Kids? Absolutely a luxury. Shelter/food/water/clothing/healthcare aren't luxuries. Everything else is.

Kids are a necessity in society, unless you think the smart hard working people are going to populate the Earth with all that sex they're not having. Then again when you can grow people in plastic bags, maybe it's not an issue?

[Captain N]

Kids are a necessity in society, unless you think the smart hard working people are going to populate the Earth with all that sex they're not having. Then again when you can grow people in plastic bags, maybe it's not an issue?

I kind of touched on this in another thread (or maybe it was this one?) where someone said that all the poor stupid people would eventually die off and the more wealthy people would take over. The higher you go up the socioeconomic ladder the fewer children people are having...because as you say they're not having as much sex probably owing to the fact they can afford to do more than just bang. When you're limited on funds...sex is almost always the cheapest form of entertainment out there.

[Masark]

You went to college and got a degree. You didn't get vocational training.

I think you're getting separated by our common language.

In the USA, college and university are synonymous, yes?

Up here, what we call "college" (without any other qualifiers) is more along the lines of what you would call "community college".

[Sunseeker]

I think you're getting separated by our common language.

In the USA, college and university are synonymous, yes?

Up here, what we call "college" (without any other qualifiers) is more along the lines of what you would call "community college".

Community colleges here give out "AA" and "AS" degrees. They also offer some Certification courses. Colleges offer BAs, BSs and Masters, some offer PHDs.

So I suppose if what they got was closer to a certification, then yes. But it's worth pointing out we also have "technical schools" which offer an entirely different sort of thing entirely. These are mostly "for profit" schools.

[Berengil]

Well no not owning a home, but a place you could call a home.

Kids are a necessity in society, unless you think the smart hard working people are going to populate the Earth with all that sex they're not having. Then again when you can grow people in plastic bags, maybe it's not an issue?

What I'm saying is that they are not a personal necessity. Reproducing isn't necessary for me to survive/prosper as an individual. If the society wants me to take time out of my life and money out of my pocket for 2 decades (minimum), they have to make it worth my while. No one was able to convince me it was.

And who said they're not having sex? Vsec at age 20 right here.

"But, but, society will eventually crumble in several ways if people don't do this" some might say. My response: What happens to this mudball starting the second after I check out of it is none of my concern. On that day, the rest of you (that are left) are on your own.