The night elves had the potential to rival the Titans!

[Qualia]

According to Aluneth, Queen Azshara's people (the night elves) once had the potential to rival the titans themselves. How far they have fallen!

The moment Aluneth claimed that a race of which one of the most powerful mage ever couldn't even conquer the Wild Gods or rival Archimonde (who in turn, was the equivalent of an ant to Sargeras), can potentially rival the Titans who effortlessly scrap planets, you know it has no clue of what it was talking about.

[derpkitteh]

The real question here is:



Who still plays Arcane??

how's it not good? a watched one kill a broken shore rare in like three missile salvos. the guy was a fucking god.

i'd like more lore on what aluneth is and the place he's from. he seems to have a lot of knowledge on the titans.

[Beloren]

The moment Aluneth claimed that a race of which one of the most powerful mage ever couldn't even conquer the Wild Gods or rival Archimonde (who in turn, was the equivalent of an ant to Sargeras), can potentially rival the Titans who effortlessly scrap planets, you know it has no clue of what it was talking about.

I don't think he meant that the night elves in their prime could potentially rival the titans, I think he meant the way they were progressing, they would grow into a formidable force/civilization that could potentially rival the titans. That's what I make of it.

[Wildmoon]

The nature-lover night elves back then(you could not even call them pre-druid) had no significance at all. They could not balance anything. The periods of cultures went like this; simple life in harmony with nature>arcane dominated through unpredented growth>current era. There was no time when the culture of arcane and nature was really in harmony. The people in power are what I am talknig about. The majority of the night elves have always lived in harmony with the land regardless of who was in power.

[Mace]

The nature-lover night elves back then(you could not even call them pre-druid) had no significance at all. They could not balance anything. The periods of cultures went like this; simple life in harmony with nature>arcane dominated through unpredented growth>current era. There was no time when the culture of arcane and nature was really in harmony. The people in power are what I am talknig about. The majority of the night elves have always lived in harmony with the land regardless of who was in power.

it's not what I meant. They may not have been powerful druids, though they had powerful druidic Ancients with them, but I refer to before they grew into their arcane legacy they were guided by Cenarius, and the reason he took interest in them was because of their benevolent and intelligent nature. The forest creatures and spirits brought wind of these rather extraordinary group of people most unlike the behaviour of the more war minded races.

Cenarius guided them. What I meant was that whiles they were not powerful druids like they became under Malfurion, the entire soceity did understand and lived with balance, which is a a fundamental truth they would have discovered. you don't need to be a powerful druid to know that you gotta keep things in balance. eating might be good for you, but you shouldn't do so in excess or out of balance with other activities or fail to utilize the extra chemical energy by doing exercise. You don't need to be a skilled physician to know that.

Balance is important, and adhering to that would have restrained excited researchers and mages from over extending, or over musing /experimenting with the arcane without breaks, without balancing their output and intake with other means etc. This they would have known fro the nature-loving underpinings of their society. The night elves may have been born from the arcane and naturally drawn to it, but their story does not fail to mention the development of nature loving ways Cenarius imprinted in them while guiding them the first time he met them.

Piecing together from what they have shown and told us, you see they over time departed from the pure nature loving existence under his tutelage because it wasn't enough for them, they didn't all abandon it, every evidence we have in wotA, chronicles and in-game points that nature played a large role in their society, over time the arcane became the be all and end all. Nature alone was not enough, and as they delved into the arcane all the society saw how wonderful it was, it became a major thing, then towards the end, an all consuming thing edging out room for the things they had once treasured and cared for. Where nature and the divine would have said no, that's too far, slow down, or pause/take a break, thos ein the race ignored that conventional wisdom and pushed on.

[Jastall]

I wouldn't call Aluneth a reliable source. The Night Elves at their zenith were powerful, but Titan can shape planets, create life and backhand Old Gods as part of their morning routines. There's a gigantic power disparity between the two. The NE are closer to kobolds than they are to Titans.

[Mace]

I don't think he meant that the night elves in their prime could potentially rival the titans, I think he meant the way they were progressing, they would grow into a formidable force/civilization that could potentially rival the titans. That's what I make of it.

This ! @Jastall He's not comparing them during the height of their empire to the titans, more like they showed at the height of their empire that they had the potential to eventually rise to the level of the titans... It's more a hint at what they could have become before being derailed.

[Akka]

Last time I checked, a Titan was a planet-sized creature who could cleave a celestial body with a casual gesture. Literally I mean, not some sort of hyperbole.

Even in the completely wonky WoW universe (where a non-magical bow is about the same as a high-tech rifle), I have a hard time seeing anything equaling that, even with whatever amount of progression in arcane power.
I know people have absolutely no sense of scale, but still, please.

[Deleted]

[Citation needed] for the OP. You lot ought to learn to poat just this in this kind of posts. [Citation needed]. Oh, and that does not mean a decontextualized citation, btw.

[Mace]

Last time I checked, a Titan was a planet-sized creature who could cleave a celestial body with a casual gesture. Literally I mean, not some sort of hyperbole.

Even in the completely wonky WoW universe (where a non-magical bow is about the same as a high-tech rifle), I have a hard time seeing anything equaling that, even with whatever amount of progression in arcane power.
I know people have absolutely no sense of scale, but still, please.

When isn't it hyperbole with these things... somehow I don't think Aluneth meant they would become celestial giants able to cleave a planet in too, I would think it would be more along the creating/sculpting of worlds, or extent of civilization displayed by titan structures and devices.

- - - Updated - - -

[Citation needed] for the OP. You lot ought to learn to poat just this in this kind of posts. [Citation needed]. Oh, and that does not mean a decontextualized citation, btw.

Haha yeah, Aluneth makes these one-liners all over the broken shore. This comment is made while in Azsuna in reference to the night elves whos civilization is in ruins. It's best to provide a voice file, it's easy to look up by googling Aluneth voice files WoW legion, I shall not do that as I prefer to discover the things he says in context as I adventure on my mage.

THanks for the heads up, if you can find it, just post it. The context is the setting he says it in. Azsuna.

[Zulkhan]

Ehm, I'm posting here just to say that, well, it's really cool and fascinating how both Ravenmoon and Mace changed avatars by aligning to more, ehm, "elven" standards. Such kindred spirits...

Fuck it, I'll try to stick on the OT for once. But seriously, what I can say, it's a rather vague statement. Maybe it could have been the case if they kept bathing into a well made of pure Titan blood for eons but we all know such luxury wasn't meant to last that long. Night Elves were never gods, just "boosted" mortals and for that reason they held dear all the most typical mortal's flaws (like pride, vanity, arrogance) which could only grow worse the more power they played with. Those flaws are what led to their downfall and the inability to reach any theorical "potential" assumed by Alumeth.

[Deleted]

So basically, Alumeth is an arrogant douche that knows nothing about their own history nor of the Titans. Because all the power the night elves have come from feeding on one Titan.

A leech can never be stronger than its host.

[Wildmoon]

it's not what I meant. They may not have been powerful druids, though they had powerful druidic Ancients with them, but I refer to before they grew into their arcane legacy they were guided by Cenarius, and the reason he took interest in them was because of their benevolent and intelligent nature. The forest creatures and spirits brought wind of these rather extraordinary group of people most unlike the behaviour of the more war minded races.

Cenarius guided them. What I meant was that whiles they were not powerful druids like they became under Malfurion, the entire soceity did understand and lived with balance, which is a a fundamental truth they would have discovered. you don't need to be a powerful druid to know that you gotta keep things in balance. eating might be good for you, but you shouldn't do so in excess or out of balance with other activities or fail to utilize the extra chemical energy by doing exercise. You don't need to be a skilled physician to know that.

Balance is important, and adhering to that would have restrained excited researchers and mages from over extending, or over musing /experimenting with the arcane without breaks, without balancing their output and intake with other means etc. This they would have known fro the nature-loving underpinings of their society. The night elves may have been born from the arcane and naturally drawn to it, but their story does not fail to mention the development of nature loving ways Cenarius imprinted in them while guiding them the first time he met them.

Piecing together from what they have shown and told us, you see they over time departed from the pure nature loving existence under his tutelage because it wasn't enough for them, they didn't all abandon it, every evidence we have in wotA, chronicles and in-game points that nature played a large role in their society, over time the arcane became the be all and end all. Nature alone was not enough, and as they delved into the arcane all the society saw how wonderful it was, it became a major thing, then towards the end, an all consuming thing edging out room for the things they had once treasured and cared for. Where nature and the divine would have said no, that's too far, slow down, or pause/take a break, thos ein the race ignored that conventional wisdom and pushed on.

That's the point of it. To rival the titans means that you command myriad forms of magic with utmost mastery. The night elves would never reach that even if they kept their arcane addiction in check because they still would not have mastered the elemental nor the nature or even the light. Without the fall of the arcane culture, the study of nature magic would not gain prominence.

[Mace]

Ehm, I'm posting here just to say that, well, it's really cool and fascinating how both Ravenmoon and Mace changed avatars by aligning to more, ehm, "elven" standards. Such kindred spirits...

Fuck it, I'll try to stick on the OT for once. But seriously, what I can say, it's a rather vague statement. Maybe it could have been the case if they kept bathing into a well made of pure Titan blood for eons but we all know such luxury wasn't meant to last that long. Night Elves were never gods, just "boosted" mortals and for that reason they held dear all the most typical mortal's flaws (like pride, vanity, arrogance) which could only grow worse the more power they played with. Those flaws are what led to their downfall and the inability to reach any theorical "potential" assumed by Alumeth.

That is a good point, but lets not forget this is fantasy, you may not like it, but anything goes here, the night elves could become gods or be wiped out, they do talk highly of their past, I always thought they were Metzen's "baby", as they seem to be a rather unique to wow version of elves /dark elves - and a lot of stuff was centred around them in the lore.

I hadn't realized Raven changed his avatar. It's nice, better than that horribly nightborne pic. We don't talk wow that much these days.

[Verdugo]

I always thought they were Metzen's "baby", as they seem to be a rather unique to wow version of elves /dark elves - and a lot of stuff was centred around them in the lore.

No matter what Metzen says, Thrall was his baby the entire time.

[Kralljin]

I don't see the issue with this statement, Aluneth says potential, that's all.

I mean the Night elves were sitting next to a fountain of Titan Blood, had powerful Titan Artifacts (Pillars of Creation) laying around, assuming they wouldn't be led astray by their leaders and actually focus on progressing their society, with enough time that might've happened.

But considering that Night elves aren't immune to corruption or megalomania, the chances of that happening were extremely slim.

[Zulkhan]

That is a good point, but lets not forget this is fantasy, you may not like it, but anything goes here, the night elves could become gods or be wiped out, they do talk highly of their past, I always thought they were Metzen's "baby", as they seem to be a rather unique to wow version of elves /dark elves - and a lot of stuff was centred around them in the lore.

Warcraft as a whole is Metzen's baby. But yeah, he has his favorites, like Thrall or Malfurion.

I don't see the issue with this statement, Aluneth says potential, that's all.

I mean the Night elves were sitting next to a fountain of Titan Blood, had powerful Titan Artifacts (Pillars of Creation) laying around, assuming they wouldn't be led astray by their leaders and actually focus on progressing their society, with enough time that might've happened.

But considering that Night elves aren't immune to corruption or megalomania, the chances of that happening were extremely slim.

It's probably still quite a flight of fancy daring to compare yourself to Titans. As I said, Night Elves were born as mortals and such would have remained, Titans on the other hand are powerful, godly creatures characterized by a benevolent nature, one extremely resistant to corruption. Night Elves in comparison are just Trolls mutated by the blood of one of their unborn, carrying over flaws they had as Trolls that relentlessly persevered as Night Elves. The very predisposition to corruption and megalomania when great power reaches their hands (predisposition shared by all mortal creatures) is exactly what defines them as "lesser" beings in front of the Titans.

Night Elves were like the kid who stole his father's aftershave and finished it all, thinking that made him "adult".

[Beloren]

Warcraft as a whole is Metzen's baby. But yeah, he has his favorites, like Thrall or Malfurion.



It's probably still quite a flight of fancy daring to compare yourself to Titans. As I said, Night Elves were born as mortals and such would have remained, Titans on the other hand are powerful, godly creatures characterized by a benevolent nature, one extremely resistant to corruption. Night Elves in comparison are just Trolls mutated by the blood of one of their unborn, carrying over flaws they had as Trolls that relentlessly persevered as Night Elves. The very predisposition to corruption and megalomania when great power reaches their hands (predisposition shared by all mortal creatures) is exactly what defines them as "lesser" beings in front of the Titans.

Night Elves were like the kid who stole his father's aftershave and finished it all, thinking that made him "adult".

it's not the night elves who are comparing themselves to titans, it's Aluneth spotting their potential during his time there. And night elves were described as benevolent from the start, even as dark trolls they were peaceful and graceful, not like the other trolls. The arcane addiction many warned Azshara about seems to have been the cause of these moral failings. It proves that despite their nature they always had this capability for evil in them, but astonishingly for 5k years (possibly more as dark trolls) chose to do good and right, that's actually quite astonishing almost Jesus like perfection. Until excessive use of magic showed that even they also make mistakes.

I could be wrong, but they were pretty much described as perfect, so it seems they were not initially pre-disposed to such moral corruption and megalomania until they over-indulged in the arcane, and it would seem they largely went back to their benevolent roots when the kaldorei group stopped using it. Wasn't Malfurion's concern that it made them worse people - or at least a side effect of excessive use was megalomania and arrogance.

It's not just users of titan blood (i.e. the well) that are pre-disposed to grandiosity, every other race portrayed in contact with the arcane is shown to have to deal with those temptations and lure. The power is intense, how much more so would it have been for the night elves? and for them to keep their heads for so long? Maybe you're right, such is not meant for mortals and they ultimately couldn't cope, but on the other hand they are described at doing phenomenally well with it until the ruling class went overboard.

So I think in blizzard's world, the elves are the closest standard to perfection and achieved it with growth in the night elf empire, but like all races, they are not infallible, and despite having such high standards and near super capabilities, they like all beings are also subject to moral compromise. And not just mortals, Dragons, loas etc all can be subject.

[Zulkhan]

it's not the night elves who are comparing themselves to titans, it's Aluneth spotting their potential during his time there.

Saying you, a mortal, would ever come close to Titans is pretty much comparing you to a god. It may be "spotted potential" by given the hardly unbiased source it's worth taking with a bare grain of salt.

And night elves were described as benevolent from the start, even as dark trolls they were peaceful and graceful, not like the other trolls.

Dark Trolls were just uninterested with their kin's wars for power and simply wanted to be in touch with nature. Still many of them lost their way the moment a great deal of power came in their hands. Sargeras saw them as tools exactly because, to him, were mere fleas playing with powers they couldn't fully comprehend.

Titans were benevolent by nature in quite a wide manner and they're so resistant to corruption that Void Lords have to target their unborn to kick their grand plan forward. They're simply gods and are born that way. Night Elves experienced a fraction of that power because they bathed in a fraction of Azeroth's own power.

The arcane addiction many warned Azshara about seems to have been the cause of these moral failings. It proves that despite their nature they always had this capability for evil in them, but astonishingly for 5k years (possibly more as dark trolls) chose to do good and right, that's actually quite astonishing almost Jesus like perfection. Until excessive use of magic showed that even they also make mistakes.

Well, what they did was expanding an empire to no end, which is not wrong at all but not "good and right" either. It's just a growing civilization expanding and growing in power. They were surely much civilized and interested in knowledge but overall, their capability to do good or evil things come plain and simple from their mortal nature, which is just the same of pretty much every other race. Their flaws and desires remained those of mortals and because of those did both great good and great evil.

I could be wrong, but they were pretty much described as perfect, so it seems they were not initially pre-disposed to such moral corruption and megalomania until they over-indulged in the arcane, and it would seem they largely went back to their benevolent roots when the kaldorei group stopped using it. Wasn't Malfurion's concern that it made them worse people - or at least a side effect of excessive use was megalomania and arrogance.

The megalomania came because the power was immense. Greater the power, greater the arrogance and the more they discovered its potential, they more they fell prey of its temptation. The addiction ofcourse drove the Highborne specifically on the verge of insanity, which is, again, a very usual variable among Warcraft's mortal races. Their civilization was grand and magnificent and that filled most of them with hubris and superiority complexes. Again, it just proves that despite all, they were still mortal at the core, mortals that stumbled on a god's power that wasn't clearly meant for them but still happened, and experienced both joy and suffering because of it.

It's not just users of titan blood (i.e. the well) that are pre-disposed to grandiosity, every other race portrayed in contact with the arcane is shown to have to deal with those temptations and lure. The power is intense, how much more so would it have been for the night elves? and for them to keep their heads for so long?

Night Elves started good because they had humble origins, their Dark Troll ancestors were the one exceptional group that was simply fascinated with nature rather than power and maintained that mentality for a while. But the more they developed and the more their race expanded an higher number of people that wanted more grew and that's what brought to the Highborne caste. And seriously, before Azshara's madness started to kick in it wasn't even an inherently evil desire, they were just mortals. They saw power and possibilities and wanted to taste it and harness it. Despite the humble origins, even among them grew people that simply desired prestige, just like the Trolls of old fought for in the past.

[ravenmoon]

...
The arcane addiction many warned Azshara about seems to have been the cause of these moral failings. It proves that despite their nature they always had this capability for evil in them, but astonishingly for 5k years (possibly more as dark trolls) chose to do good and right, that's actually quite astonishing almost Jesus like perfection. Until excessive use of magic showed that even they also make mistakes.

Note that it's excessive use, not any use. Arcane usage is actually quite beneficial, but also dangerous because of how easy it is to go overboard and think you're invincible - i.e. the lure of power.

I could be wrong, but they were pretty much described as perfect, so it seems they were not initially pre-disposed to such moral corruption and megalomania until they over-indulged in the arcane, and it would seem they largely went back to their benevolent roots when the kaldorei group stopped using it. Wasn't Malfurion's concern that it made them worse people - or at least a side effect of excessive use was megalomania and arrogance.

It's not just users of titan blood (i.e. the well) that are pre-disposed to grandiosity, every other race portrayed in contact with the arcane is shown to have to deal with those temptations and lure. The power is intense, how much more so would it have been for the night elves? and for them to keep their heads for so long? Maybe you're right, such is not meant for mortals and they ultimately couldn't cope, but on the other hand they are described at doing phenomenally well with it until the ruling class went overboard.

So I think in blizzard's world, the elves are the closest standard to perfection and achieved it with growth in the night elf empire, but like all races, they are not infallible, and despite having such high standards and near super capabilities, they like all beings are also subject to moral compromise. And not just mortals, Dragons, loas etc all can be subject.

The elves seemed to have done pretty well, mastering themselves well, but they went overboard under Azshara's leadership towards the end. Now I wonder if a specific event caused this insane drive that abandoned reason?

i) Did the queen fell to classic 101 in magical usage, do not lose control. know your limits? -
ii) perhaps she began to think she had no limits,? or
iii) was driven by an insatiable appetite to be more adored and loved, and thus kept pushing to do more amazing things, something you could only achieve by more practice, more study and more usage - and thus would not have been dissuaded.

There is another conceivable possibility too that could be revealed
iv) Azshara had made contact with an inter dimensional being, maybe Sargeras, maybe a demon or maybe just perceived greater terrors in the great beyond - the night elves did look at the cosmos, drawing on their power to uncover its secrets and wield this cosmic energy. Star Augur perceives void entities, could Azhsara had done so? Could either a void entity or the might of the Legion galvanised the Queen to push into the arcane even more? Push in order to match such beings, or push in order to enter a partnership with Sargeras as an equal in her own merit. I mean she is a smart cookie, she is fully aware that they wielded incredible power and they certainly had the insane amount of intelligence to uncover cosmic secrets that only study and time could help them master.

Maybe it is all of the above, we do know for sure, they kept pushing, even when renowned members started sending out warning bells, "slow down", "over doing this", it's easy for us to think of the elves as just one of us, subject to the same moral failings and at the end of the day no better than us. We like bringing everyone down to our level. But these are not humans we are reading about. And while there might be an element of that, there could have been pure motives that led to this drive. The desire for more perfection , more purity, more good, more wonder - or to be able to stand toe to toe with any menace from beyond.

Pushing like she did is what leads, over time, to a callousness of heart, uncaring about anything but power, arrogance. In this condition, she was ripe to be recruited and manipulated into giving the legion access, so it stands to reason she was being worked on to get to that point. By fate? or by another guiding hand? WotA implies the old gods, Sargeras is also another possibility we can't rule out, and off course there is just herself because even elves go bad of their own volition, strange to do so from a desire to make all things right, but we saw similar happen in the young Arthas did we not.

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Dark Trolls were just uninterested with their kin's wars for power and simply wanted to be in touch with nature. Still many of them lost their way the moment a great deal of power came in their hands. Sargeras saw them as tools exactly because, to him, were mere fleas playing with powers they couldn't fully comprehend.

Titans were benevolent by nature in quite a wide manner and they're so resistant to corruption that Void Lords have to target their unborn to kick their grand plan forward. They're simply gods and are born that way. Night Elves experienced a fraction of that power because they bathed in a fraction of Azeroth's own power.

While what you are saying makes logical sense even good one too, I think given information points it's more than just that. Don't forget the night elves didn't "merely learn" to utilize Azeroth's power in the Well (an achievement of itself as no one else had), The night elves are made from the arcane essence of the titan's blood, its in their make up, somehow this power fused into the dark trolls makes this new race's they start already enhanced by virtue of their genesis and base arcane essence (we're not sure how, I still think it was directed subconsciously by the titan herself or Elune - but it's only a suspicion),

It doesn't end there either, warcraft is showing us that the people of Azeroth are very special too, remember the Well itself becomes the source of all life, so all those made from it like trolls, wild gods, and even the other titan constructs that were made on Azeroth using Azeroths materials even though it was not Azeroth that generated them, but the other titans - (giants, vrykul, earthern, etc) and while these didn't come from the Well, or were reamde infused with it in their essence... when the vrykul become flesh from stone, and eventually human, I suspect again this is an affect of Azeroth on them that seems like a bad thing because flesh is weaker than stone, but as the races prove, in their flesh forms, they are better suited to face much bigger challenges with fewer numbers than their mightier stone counterparts,

And lets face it, the elves are written special amongst a special collection of races and we see the origin for this, they probably hold a greater measure of the titans arcane essence fused into their being. Not just anyone could study magic like they did and unravel its mysteries to the extent they did. They had dragons pondering the mysteries of hte cosmos with them in Nar'thalas academy and Suramar the frontier of magical learning.

So whiles Azeroth's beings are not the level of titans, they are all somewaht special, afterall, look at what they've done in the last few decades and the challenges they've faced, it's ridiculous, and well OTT, there's something more than normal about this planet and its people, and when you look at the night elves too, and the elves in general you see even more of that from a non-combat point of view.