World PvP

[Kagthul]

Because you can't.

PvP talents aren't something that can just be active all the time out in the world.

Considering all but like.. one of them (for my Afflock, for instance) that is worth taking is simply a recycled ability that we had at all times previously, yeah, it totally can.

[Hackmeoff]

Balancing costs too much money for blizzard to want to commit to. It's hard, and it requires thinking, skill, and PvP design experience, none of which can be found in the random number generator, which is the only thing Blizzard is good at implementing. It's probably best to accept that world PvP is over, because it won't be getting better anytime soon.

[Kralljin]

No one complained about it in WoD.

Because it required you to wear PvP in the first place.

Wild guess, most people did not wear PvP Gear when doing Outdoor content in WoD, aside from Ashran.

can only cause problems, like it already does. Every time blizzard reduces a class' str/agi/int to tune damage (which is the only reason they ever do it), they also nerf any defensive abilities that scale off those stats... Ret's Flash of Light for example, got nerfed into the ground because we needed our PvP damage reduced, and they did it via mainstat instead of ability tuning.

Depends on whether they just wanted to nerf Ret overall.

But it's not that uncommon for nerfs to do some collateral damage.

Using Abilities to balance PvP is no different in that regard, like when they nerf colossus Smash for Arms and Fury was also using it.

I don't see them as necessary, if a class neededs a defensive nerf or buff, do it by nerfing or buffing their defensive abilities effectiveness against player damage.

So far, the only did time they did those "PvP only" changes affected offensive Abilities, never defensive.

Aside from that, certain issues are more complicated than that, if mages are getting one shotted, buffing Ice Barrier might not exactly help.

[Schattenlied]

Because it required you to wear PvP in the first place.

Wild guess, most people did not wear PvP Gear when doing Outdoor content in WoD, aside from Ashran.

PvPers did, most people I knew on PvP servers wore PvP gear outdoors.

Depends on whether they just wanted to nerf Ret overall.

They specified it was because of damage.

Using Abilities to balance PvP is no different in that regard, like when they nerf colossus Smash for Arms and Fury was also using it.

They can easily be separated into two different abilities with the same name and balanced separately.

Aside from that, certain issues are more complicated than that, if mages are getting one shotted, buffing Ice Barrier might not exactly help.

If mages are getting one shotted, the class attacking them does too much damage.

[Kralljin]

PvPers did, most people I knew on PvP servers wore PvP gear outdoors.

I have played on PvP Servers since i started and people wearing PvP Gear outside of PvP areas remained a rare sight since Wotlk.

The PvP participation went down since TBC, after PvP gear became inferior to PvE Gear.

They specified it was because of damage.

Could've compensated by buffing FoL via PvP Template, which they didn't, for some reason.

They can easily be separated into two different abilities with the same name.

Which they didn't, for some reason.

If mages are getting one shotted, the class attacking them does too much damage.

In RBG's, where 5+ people are attacking you, this may not be that easy.

[Schattenlied]

Could've compensated by buffing FoL via PvP Template, which they didn't, for some reason.



Which they didn't, for some reason.

they did, eventually, after leaving it in a state of worthlessness for 6 months... It wouldn't have happened to begin with if they just tuned ability damage.

In RBG's, where 5+ people are attacking you, this may not be that easy.

In that case you're most likely dead anyways.

The situation you described, where a mage is getting "one shot" by everyone else would only happen if there was something fundamentally wrong with all cloth gear in general, like, it didn't have armor at all and had less stamina than leather/mail plate, which it doesn't... That will otherwise not happen and as such is not a concern.

[Kralljin]

In that case you're most likely dead anyways.

If that would be the case, then RBG would be one giant oneshot fest on both sides.

The situation you described, where a mage is getting "one shot" by everyone else would only happen if there was something fundamentally wrong with all cloth gear in general, like, it didn't have armor at all and had less stamina than leather/mail plate, which it doesn't... That will otherwise not happen and as such is not a concern.

Problem is that this isn't an issue tied to the armor type, Warlocks and Mages wear Cloth, still Warlocks have more life because they have a different toolkit.
Disc / Holy Priests are healer, their healthpool can't be compared to that of a Mage.

This example really only serves to show that damage in PvP is not that one dimensional, simply because X is dying too fast, doesn't mean that Y is OP, it could simply mean that X is too squishy.

[Schattenlied]

If that would be the case, then RBG would be one giant oneshot fest on both sides.



Problem is that this isn't an issue tied to the armor type, Warlocks and Mages wear Cloth, still Warlocks have more life because they have a different toolkit.
Disc / Holy Priests are healer, their healthpool can't be compared to that of a Mage.

This example really only serves to show that damage in PvP is not that one dimensional, simply because X is dying too fast, doesn't mean that Y is OP, it could simply mean that X is too squishy.

Yes, and that toolkit can be buffed or nerfed appropriately to adjust their "squishiness", as I have already told you. There is nothing that would cause mages to suddenly start getting one shot, they didn't need templates before to stop that, they don't need them now.

[ComputerNerd]

They don't need to be active all the time, as soon as PvP combat is detected, switch them on, then apply damage/effects, easy fucking done, this is exactly how the PvP gear worked in WoD... It had lower ilvl when out of pvp combat and higher in, even out in the world... This is how the PvP talents work right now, but talents are not the problem, the templates are, the templates (which govern primary and secondary stat levels, and ability scaling in PvP) don't activate in world PvP. So don't fucking tell me it can't be done, that's a lie, it's already been done in the past.

Ability damage tuning for PvP should be getting done with the "does less damage to players" modifier that has existed for abilities since MoP, template not even required.

Some effects might need pro-active use manually or automatically.
It isn't the same simply "turning them on" once you have been hit.

Claiming it is easy just because you say so is wrong.
Actually give more reasoning than that.

Templates don't work for the same reason, because of the impact of the transition.
It isn't seamless, as the templates will change your stats.
Which can be, and have been relevant while in PvE combat when attacked by another player.

I will tell people something cant be done when I have good reason to believe it can't.
You are simply saying it is easy, without bothering to think if it actually is.

Go write a blog, since you dismiss any disagreement with "don't tell me I am wrong".
PvE and PvP have vastly different considerations when it comes to the scales of combat, which in PvE is meant to support upto an entire raid of players, while in PvP it is very often much smaller vs an opponent meant to be similar, a very different scenario to solo PvE.

[Schattenlied]

Some effects might need pro-active use manually or automatically.
It isn't the same simply "turning them on" once you have been hit.

Claiming it is easy just because you say so is wrong.
Actually give more reasoning than that.

Templates don't work for the same reason, because of the impact of the transition.
It isn't seamless, as the templates will change your stats.
Which can be, and have been relevant while in PvE combat when attacked by another player.

I will tell people something cant be done when I have good reason to believe it can't.
You are simply saying it is easy, without bothering to think if it actually is.

Go write a blog, since you dismiss any disagreement with "don't tell me I am wrong".
PvE and PvP have vastly different considerations when it comes to the scales of combat, which in PvE is meant to support upto an entire raid of players, while in PvP it is very often much smaller vs an opponent meant to be similar, a very different scenario to solo PvE.

It

Fucking

worked

that

way

in

WOD.

That means it's possible.

[Kralljin]

Yes, and that toolkit can be buffed or nerfed appropriately to adjust their "squishiness", as I have already told you.

And again, the toolkit there is limited, you can't fix everything by changing a number on certain abilities.

If you change your average defensive CD from 40% dmg reduction to 60% in PvP, what's it going to do?
You probably still die outside of your defensive CD because you're too squishy without it.

There is nothing that would cause mages to suddenly start getting one shot, they didn't need templates before to stop that, they don't need them now.

Most certainly other specs benefit from the fact that they more HP / Armor in PvP Zones than they do outside of it, because now some specs can finally be more resilient towards melees (Or damage in general) without requiring extra new abilities to prevent damage / kite melees.

It That means it's possible.

No one questioned that.

In WoD you received a Flat Ilvl boost, even the freaking PvP Gear had an extra tooltip for that. (If you were wearing PvP Gear at all)

In Legion, you get attacked and suddenly all your stats are getting turned upside down, no matter if you wear any special pvp gear or not, that is different.

[Schattenlied]

And again, the toolkit there is limited, you can't fix everything by changing a number on certain abilities.

If you change your average defensive CD from 40% dmg reduction to 60% in PvP, what's it going to do?
You probably still die outside of your defensive CD because you're too squishy without it.

Then give them another defensive CD through PvP talents, or dedicate a whole row of PvP talents to defensive options (which do activate in the world) or make their defensive CD incur a lower CD when activated while engaged in PvP combat.

There are plenty of ways to fix this without the horridly flawed template system, they did it before templates were a thing, they can do it without them again.

[ComputerNerd]

It

Fucking

worked

that

way

in

WOD.

That means it's possible.

As pointed out be Krallin it worked very differently.
There was a huge difference between an item level boost and a template.
So no, stop being wilfully ignorant.
It did not work, because IT was not the same.
What you had then, and what you have now are not simply the same.
And therefore not just interchangeable.

The template is aiming to do the opposite of what an increased item level does.
Putting players on fairly equal terms, when in a an environment constrained in very different ways and with vastly different scaling demands.

[Kralljin]

Then give them another defensive CD through PvP talents (which do activate in the world)

Totally what the game needs, more cooldowns to keep track off.

New abilities to fix issues was done rather rarely by Blizzard, i doubt that the idea of a fixing a rather common pvp issue in such way finds much appeal.

or make their defensive CD incur a lower CD when activated while engaged in PvP combat.

More shit that remains obscure to most people or needs to be added to tooltips.

[Schattenlied]

Totally what the game needs, more cooldowns to keep track off.

This game used to have many many more abilities than it has now, and IMHO would be far better off if it still did. The pruning of that stuff was one of the worst things to ever happen to WoW.

If you can't handle keeping track of one more cooldown I feel sorry for you, because that means you likely missed this game when it was at it's best, or were never able to appreciate the game when it was it's most wonderful.

[Kralljin]

This game used to have many many more abilities than it has now, and IMHO would be far better off if it still did. The pruning of that stuff was one of the worst things to ever happen to WoW.

Amount of abilities? Sure that one has gone down.

Amount of defensive cd's? the only classes that lost defensive cd's were the ones that gained in the MoP - WoD era.

If you can't handle keeping track of one more cooldown I feel sorry for you, because that means you likely missed this game when it was at it's best, or were never able to appreciate the game when it was it's most wonderful.

Personally i was never the biggest fan of the idea that so many classes have like 3 defensive cd's to throw around, simply makes the situation of someone being in danger of dying less dangerous, you don't try to play to defensively, you just press a button and you're safe, for the most part.

Aside from that, classes on average had the most defensive cd's during the Cata and MoP era, just as a reminder.

[Schattenlied]

Oh, also

More shit that remains obscure to most people or needs to be added to tooltips.

This is already everything modified by pvp templates, none of the skills tell you they do less damage to players under the templates (some skills do lower damage to players and don't say so, Templar's Verdict does lower damage in pvp, doesn't say so, Justicar's Vengenace does lower damage in PvP (by a LOT) and doesn't say so, Justicar's vengeance also is supposed to do 100% additional damage to stunned targets but only does 25% additional in pvp, doesn't say so anywhere) , and the stats for PvP templates are 100% hidden, there is NOWHERE you can go to see that the templates are going to set your stats to, you can't check how much strength you are losing to the template... A ret paladin walking into PvP has no idea he only has 80% of the strength stat he should have at the template Ilvl unless he has followed every single template patch note chance since ALPHA because the information is not fucking available.

The current system is a huge fucking mess.

[Deleted]

- They aren't even trying to balance classes' toolkits for 1v1 making 90 % of world pvp encounters unbalanced by default.
- Most balancing is done with pvp templates and they aren't active in world pvp.
- And we have lead pvp designer that has stated multiple times that they have no intentions to balance world pvp.
If world pvp was good, it would be pure luck.

[Kryptoon]

Amount of abilities? Sure that one has gone down.

Amount of defensive cd's? the only classes that lost defensive cd's were the ones that gained in the MoP - WoD era.



Personally i was never the biggest fan of the idea that so many classes have like 3 defensive cd's to throw around, simply makes the situation of someone being in danger of dying less dangerous, you don't try to play to defensively, you just press a button and you're safe, for the most part.

Aside from that, classes on average had the most defensive cd's during the Cata and MoP era, just as a reminder.

I take it that you are the kind of player who will enjoy wow on xbox, as with the amount of pruning it will soon be there.
Personally, I enjoyed couple of defensive cd's, when I survived for more than a burst while cc'ed.

[GKLeatherCraft]

I'm loving W-PvP this expansion, As always, Loads of it and quite a lot of fun to be had, Saying that, I do main a Guardian Druid, So I can understand why it seems more fun to me, But then even in instanced PvP, I normally play Resto, But I was doing some arenas and decided to try Guardian, And it felt just the same to me, High DMG output, low DMG taken.

On my Fire Mage however, Boy that takes some getting used to after playing Guardian xD