So, where are Havoc's promised "major changes" in 7.2.5?

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...09&end=2761092

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...asts&source=23

Cherry picking the most patchwork fight in the raid , doesn't prove shit. See the logs above, same guy but a different picture which proves my original point. Not a 1 button spec , and you trying to say it is only diminishes your intelligence .

I think you should look at those logs yourself

[Deleted]

My only wish for Havoc is a more reliable selfheal.

[Lucrece]

Sounds like you are playing it very wrong.

Protip: Fracture is a Talent.

Fracture does not lessen the amounts of soul cleaves going out let alone the fact you are getting overheals or losing DPS in not letting soul cleave be an overheal.

Drop the shit tangents. Fracture is a DPS optimization talent. It has nothing to do with soul cleave's wasted heals as part of a rotational ability.

[Krille]

Couldn't agree more. One more thing to add is that Havoc without talents is such a barebone as-basic-as-it-gets spec that even with talents it's hard to create any kind of complexity. Things like Fel Mastery and Felblade could easily be made baseline and make space for actual talents instead of the current ones that feel like they barely make havoc an actual dps spec.

Too many of our talents are just modifiers of current spells, totally agree. The ones that actually add new spells are so shit that they'll never be taken unless they switch up the rows or remove Chaos Blades. Like why do we have another % dmg increase row, wouldn't having Chaos Blades take Fel Eruptions place be better? Like i seriously don't know how Blizzard came up with this spec atm. Their first iteration in Legion was clunky but much better than the current braindead one.

I sincerely hope 100% dblades proc (read 78% cus of miss) isnt the only change they'll give us. My hope is that they're taking their time coming up with something and that's why it's delayed. I hope that the nerf to TG bracers was a sign of what's to come (baseline FB), maybe they had to nerf Bracers otherwise Bloodlet would be way too strong in comparison to other talents or something. Just wishful thinking. Give me a bone Blizzard.

[Zyky]

I've put a bit of time in on PTR trying out new trinkets and talents. Honestly it seems like nothing much has changed.

We're now more often fury starved(even with the ring). The huge drop in Fury Generation is quite substantial, I'm hoping Tomb tier will help fix this up a bit, but its kinda messed up that we have to rely on a tier to fix a huge problem, that'll just be a new/same problem when we replace the tier. It's just a little obnoxious still when we can miss 5 auto's in a row because who knows why.

They gutted the Bloodlet option ever being viable again when they nerfed the Legendary bracers.

Mechanically, we're quite bland. Literally the same thing, Spam Chaos Strike and Blade Dance on CD. Using CDs as burst windows of doing the same thing.

Only thing that might change is Fel Barrage might actually see some use now, but probably only if the user doesn't have the Legendary helm to go with the Demonic build.

[Deleted]

A small price to pay for a fairly good cd anyways ;p. You even get to not deal with the bullshit that is momentum.

Just play any dot or non-burst class. Apply a dot and see it not even tick twice before mobs are dead.

Burst classes are amazing in this game, and DH is one of the best burst classes. It's also super easy to be up there in damage done to empowered eyes of gul'dan.

And meanwhile here I am not coming back to my DH until Momentum is a thing again, this CS spamming is a contender for watching paint dry as far as enjoyment levels go.

[Lex Icon]

I've put a bit of time in on PTR trying out new trinkets and talents. Honestly it seems like nothing much has changed.

We're now more often fury starved(even with the ring). The huge drop in Fury Generation is quite substantial, I'm hoping Tomb tier will help fix this up a bit, but its kinda messed up that we have to rely on a tier to fix a huge problem, that'll just be a new/same problem when we replace the tier. It's just a little obnoxious still when we can miss 5 auto's in a row because who knows why.

They gutted the Bloodlet option ever being viable again when they nerfed the Legendary bracers.

Mechanically, we're quite bland. Literally the same thing, Spam Chaos Strike and Blade Dance on CD. Using CDs as burst windows of doing the same thing.

Only thing that might change is Fel Barrage might actually see some use now, but probably only if the user doesn't have the Legendary helm to go with the Demonic build.

coming from an old ret i hope this won't be the case.. it's not fun when your spec rely on tier sets to function. especially when you're not into the whole raiding bit.

[Deleted]

I've put a bit of time in on PTR trying out new trinkets and talents. Honestly it seems like nothing much has changed.

We're now more often fury starved(even with the ring). The huge drop in Fury Generation is quite substantial, I'm hoping Tomb tier will help fix this up a bit, but its kinda messed up that we have to rely on a tier to fix a huge problem, that'll just be a new/same problem when we replace the tier. It's just a little obnoxious still when we can miss 5 auto's in a row because who knows why.

They gutted the Bloodlet option ever being viable again when they nerfed the Legendary bracers.

Mechanically, we're quite bland. Literally the same thing, Spam Chaos Strike and Blade Dance on CD. Using CDs as burst windows of doing the same thing.

Only thing that might change is Fel Barrage might actually see some use now, but probably only if the user doesn't have the Legendary helm to go with the Demonic build.

While I am in no way happy with where Havoc currently is on the ptr, it should be noted that I (914 equipped) was simming highest using Fel Mastery / Prepared and Sephuz instead of Anger.

[Super Kami Dende]

Fracture does not lessen the amounts of soul cleaves going out let alone the fact you are getting overheals or losing DPS in not letting soul cleave be an overheal.

Drop the shit tangents. Fracture is a DPS optimization talent. It has nothing to do with soul cleave's wasted heals as part of a rotational ability.

I mean, If I'm using Fracture I'm not using Soul Cleave unless I need to heal. So no Heals wasted there for me.

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And meanwhile here I am not coming back to my DH until Momentum is a thing again, this CS spamming is a contender for watching paint dry as far as enjoyment levels go.

Momentum is/was one of the Worst Talent choices I've ever seen in WoW. A talent that requires you to use your Mobility Skills, doesn't stack it's timer with itself and requires you to consistently change your positioning in fights?

Yeah.. I'm glad they killed it being the "top" dps build.

[Deleted]

I mean, If I'm using Fracture I'm not using Soul Cleave unless I need to heal. So no Heals wasted there for me.

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Momentum is/was one of the Worst Talent choices I've ever seen in WoW. A talent that requires you to use your Mobility Skills, doesn't stack it's timer with itself and requires you to consistently change your positioning in fights?

Yeah.. I'm glad they killed it being the "top" dps build.

You have your opinion I have mine. Momentum's what I found interesting about the DH playstyle, these days it's awfully dull. Could it be improved? Most certainly, but in general I enjoyed it a great deal.

[Zyky]

While I am in no way happy with where Havoc currently is on the ptr, it should be noted that I (914 equipped) was simming highest using Fel Mastery / Prepared and Sephuz instead of Anger.

Ya I should have mentioned that Anger feels practically worthless now. I'm 909 with 1 CS relic and 2 DB relics, only legendary I don't have is sephuz so I didn't play around with that, but the best combo of legendaries that I played with were Shoulders and Belt. Though I'm sure Sephuz will be better than the Belt, its already better on some fights currently in Nighthold, this just nails the coffin for Anger tbh and its very noticeable.

[Dextar]

The only major change I'd like is more stable fury regen. Last week on Mythic Tril there was a 1k fury difference between myself and our other DH. That's unreal and should NOT happen. It's awesome when we get great procs but when you get garbage RNG, it feels horrible.

[Deix-EU]

I mean, If I'm using Fracture I'm not using Soul Cleave unless I need to heal. So no Heals wasted there for me.

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Momentum is/was one of the Worst Talent choices I've ever seen in WoW. A talent that requires you to use your Mobility Skills, doesn't stack it's timer with itself and requires you to consistently change your positioning in fights?

Yeah.. I'm glad they killed it being the "top" dps build.

Not saying this is your case but most people I know who disliked momentum were actually bad at it. The number of DH I found largely behind me before is countless whereas now it's hard to catch up without the right tools or luck strings, this had the advantage to get actually credit to the word "skill". We however agree, hardly applyable to some raid contexts but this can be improved.

However if you dislike it because "mobility tools or constant thinking of where you are, what you have to do etc. every 4 sec", this class shouldn't be for these people and I hate the fact some newbies came here seeing light and changing the DH challengers way of think, convincing blizzard especially for what result ? A simple gameplay overall for EVERYONE.

We had kind of a rotation before, now we are on a rolling face spam key with a bit of reactive skills ... This class diserves more, both a mix of rotation with reactive skills, like other classes. This class was surely too much for WoW (my opinion), but welcomed when she had her own "original" mechanisms. I really like the "dancing abilities synergies" of shirofune, provided that we don't move "that much" around the boss.

[SnorlaxJeng]

I should mention that as of PTR now, Critical Mastery build will be totally crippled due to fury starve.
Critical Haste builds to the point that in Sephuz will outshine AotHG, should be aiming for 30% haste with sufficient critical: 40-50% range (depending on tier)

And radical shift towards a haste build would see the rise of Delusions of Grandeur as the 2nd desirable legendary alongside with Cinidaria. Raddon as usual will be for M+.

Fel Barrage problem is not so much as the damage but the channeling aspect of it. If it was a CD instant that you launch and forget then its more usable. It is actually quite decent for M+ and serves well for both Critical/Haste or Critical/Mastery builts.

[Deix-EU]

I should mention that as of PTR now, Critical Mastery build will be totally crippled due to fury starve.
Critical Haste builds to the point that in Sephuz will outshine AotHG, should be aiming for 30% haste with sufficient critical: 40-50% range (depending on tier)

And radical shift towards a haste build would see the rise of Delusions of Grandeur as the 2nd desirable legendary alongside with Cinidaria. Raddon as usual will be for M+.

Fel Barrage problem is not so much as the damage but the channeling aspect of it. If it was a CD instant that you launch and forget then its more usable. It is actually quite decent for M+ and serves well for both Critical/Haste or Critical/Mastery builts.

i.e: there is clearly something missing on PTR, DH cannot be released in patch like this... just cannot ...

[Deleted]

The ones who wrote Star Augur as example are the momentum lover, here your theory falls. We are a lot to miss momentum GAMEPLAY but this is not compliant with "don't move" content, and there are plenty. As Shiro said, a balance of this gameplay with "dancing" abilities (FR / VR reworked not to move that much ? Well, complicated too cause FR / VR as it fills perfectly the "lore" ...) could do the trick. At least, we are as a rule a lot to want a more competitive "non static", "less RNG", "more tactical" gameplay for sure.

I don't know if it's a language barrier or not, but you are making zero sense.

[Deix-EU]

I don't know if it's a language barrier or not, but you are making zero sense.

No. You interpret it as zero sense.
Will make more linear for you :

1) You wrote that we are now two clans: momentum lovers, momentum haters
2) You also wrote that "someone wrote Star Augur as an example of difficulty to apply the gameplay in raid"
=> I supposed you were talking about someone in the "momentum haters" clan and that you put all the people saying how difficult it is in current content in the same basket, which would be logical with the sentences you are using and the way you turn them. However, this is wrong, most people who wrote that are in fact momentum lovers from the start. You know you can both love momentum and find it kind of hard to apply it in raid nowadays reliably huh ?

To conclude, in fact you are making yourself your own clan with the "Am I alone to regret old Momentum build ??!!" whereas we are a lot on this thread to be the momentum lovers / conquerors of 7.1. But denying this is not a gameplay for the way Blizzard design bosses with the ultimate "pffftt Adapt hard" is awkward toward the "supposed" clan.
There is on this thread 3 clans: momentum lovers, momentum haters, you (well this is not the case, but this is what your post intuitively imply, kind of).

[Deleted]

No. You interpret it as zero sense.
Will make more linear for you :

1) You wrote that we are now two clans: momentum lovers, momentum haters
2) You also wrote that "someone wrote Star Augur as an example of difficulty to apply the gameplay in raid"
=> I supposed you were talking about someone in the "momentum haters" clan and that you put all the people saying how difficult it is in current content in the same basket, which would be logical with the sentences you are using and the way you turn them. However, this is wrong, most people who wrote that are in fact momentum lovers from the start. You know you can both love momentum and find it kind of hard to apply it in raid nowadays reliably huh ?

To conclude, in fact you are making yourself your own clan with the "Am I alone to regret old Momentum build ??!!" whereas we are a lot on this thread to be the momentum lovers / conquerors of 7.1. But denying this is not a gameplay for the way Blizzard design bosses with the ultimate "pffftt Adapt hard" is awkward toward the "supposed" clan.
There is on this thread 3 clans: momentum lovers, momentum haters, you (well this is not the case, but this is what your post intuitively imply, kind of).

If you actually understood english better, you would realize that I wrote that it did divide us into two camps (past tense, not present). At least that was my own interpretation at that time. And about Star Augur, I obviously hit a nerve that wasn't meant to be directed at you. Sorry for offending your "clan" lel.
There is something odd with your wording and train of thought though, hence you making zero sense.

I guess we aren't going any further in our discussion, you can reply with something juicy and we call it a day ok
Peace

[Zasriel]

Another PTR patch, 0 Havoc changes.

[Deleted]

Another PTR patch, 0 Havoc changes.

They probably have no ideas on how to fix DH