Was quite left leaning, but have slowly been turned off by the left.

[Sky High]

what OP is talking about isn't left or right but republican and democrat... people make this mistake all the god damn time and it bugs the hell out of me. that said really there isn't much difference between the two other then one is much more overtly draconian and backward then the other one. as for identity politics whoopie, big fucking deal, both sides engage in that. and while I consider myself solidly left wing I don't partake in the obnoxiousness you see get plastered all over the internet.

[Torto]

Yeah, right wing economics sure worked well, what with the shrinking of the US middle class, the 2008 market crash, and wealth inequality that rivals third world nations. Such great work.

Europe is doing much better comparatively and they have many more "socialist" aspects to them.

Religion is no where near marginalized in the US. Religion plays a major role in politics and protestant evangelicals are one of the most politically powerful groups in the US.

So you are telling me that US citizens on average are poorer now than they were in the 70s or 80s? Somehow I doubt it very much.

Outside of Germany and the UK, Europe is a basket case. Socialist policies worked really well for Greece huh?

Religious groups are marginalised, and are literally preaching to the converted. The most powerful political force in the US is the media. They control the flow of information to the masses (because the masses are too lazy to find the information themselves). And the media, bar a few minor off-shoots, is inherently left wing progressive.

[PC2]

Literally who gives a fuck what the other people are like? Your political positions should be based on rational extrapolation from your values informed by reality, not a vote for which team you want to be friends with more.

Yes that sounds right, positions based on rationality are strong. Yet in our other conversation you argued that there was nothing wrong with identity politics. Which by definition is political positioning based on the interest of demographic teams.

[Willias]

I still consider myself a leftie, but some of the nonsense that comes out of "liberals" heads is pretty stupid at times. People don't seem to get that if you try and shut people's free speech down, all you end up with is contempt that will brew somewhere else.

And I think trying to shut people up is part of why things are the way they are right now.

[Thandrend]

By all data given he would have cleared the field on the republican side and on the Democrat side as well which is why they cheated him and tried to marginalize and lie about him the entire time and make sure voters didn't know anything about him.

But what parts of his policy did you dislike?

I much liked his Healthcare policy which was estimated to be about $4,000 per person per year cheaper than what we have with actual full coverage.

I much like his tax policy would would have forced the rich to pay more and quit getting their stuff taxed at lower rates than everyone else by taxing capital gains like normal income above $250,000 per year.

His college plan I honestly didn't know enough about to have an opinion worth hearing overall but at face value still seemed better with our student debt issue and would force the private universities to have to compete against them for students.

What all parts did you not like?

Most people I know who hated him typically hated him based on lies trying to say he would raise taxes to 95% or how he would bankrupt us when by all measurements his stuff was projected to save us money and potentially balance our budget by his 2nd term.

And a few of them because they believe a lot of stuff that has been known to be false but still many conservatives believe them like those people who still think Elvis is still alive talking about how cutting taxes on the corporations creates jobs or that money will trickle down and thinking he will destroy those and run the jobs off.

I am not opposed to any of his social viewpoints. They're fine.

To avoid arguments, we'll just leave it that I don't believe mandated healthcare is a positive change in the United States. Is healthcare necessary? Yes. We will just probably always disagree with how we need to administer it.

A progressive taxation standard is becoming more reasonable in my eyes. Though I am hugely in favor of excise taxes and eliminating income taxes on wages, and taxing capital gains. It's more lucrative. This way, the rich is actually taxed more, and the poor can afford 15% more shit, 365 days per year.

However; if we are to have a government run healthcare system, people unable to afford should not be penalized. Shared responsibility is a slap in the face of the poor.

[Chinese Bootlickers]

This last bit here is known as Horseshoe Theory, and over the last couple years I've come to see it as absolutely correct.

Fuck, at this point it's more like a doughnut.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

You might want to read up about the coffee thing, it wasn't that she drank the coffee while driving it was that the coffee. It was the fact that the coffee was over 180 degrees and when it split it was so hot it caused 3rd degree burns to her crotch and everywhere it split. That was the McDonalds fault on that one.

(To add a bit to your remarks regarding the case)

She wasn't driving, she was in the passenger seat of a parked car. She originally only asked for $20,000 to cover the medical expenses, which is actually quite low considering how dangerous her injuries were (complications from third-degree burns can be fatal). McDonald's only offered her $800, so she took them to court. The jury, as a result of watching the case play out in court, was so appalled by McDonalds that they called for 2.7 million in punitive damages. At the end of the case the woman wound up getting $600,000. The fact that people think it she was just out to squeeze money is thanks to the misinformation campaign that McDonald's has run trying to frame it as a frivolous lawsuit.

[Wyrt]

So you are telling me that US citizens on average are poorer now than they were in the 70s or 80s? Somehow I doubt it very much.

Outside of Germany and the UK, Europe is a basket case. Socialist policies worked really well for Greece huh?

Religious groups are marginalised, and are literally preaching to the converted. The most powerful political force in the US is the media. They control the flow of information to the masses (because the masses are too lazy to find the information themselves). And the media, bar a few minor off-shoots, is inherently left wing progressive.

Comparatively, yes, the middle class in the US is worse of than it was in past decades.

Protestants aren't marginalized, other religious groups are. Protestants are one of the most powerful groups in US politics.

The media is not left wing progressive, it's pro-corporate conservative. Left wing progressive media would be things like The Young Turks, but they're not mainstream media by any measure and are actively ostracized by the mainstream media.

[Celista]

Both sides have idiots so if that's the metric then you'd never vote for anyone or support any group at all. You should support whoever you think will make the country better.

So what if some people on the left say some silly PC shit. You think that's worse than what Trump and the republicans are doing to the country right now?

Tribalism, some might actually think so.

Have an idea for gauging forum bias...making a forum thread linking two articles about misdeeds by politicians, swapping out the political party of the politician or leaving out party affiliation altogether.

Would be interesting to see forum replies, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance on both sides.

[Sky High]

The media is not left wing progressive, it's pro-corporate conservative. Left wing progressive media would be things like The Young Turks, but they're not mainstream media by any measure and are actively ostracized by the mainstream media.

it's really baffling to me how this fact still hasn't dawned on people. like what was the MSM reaction to Trump bombing Syria? I tell you for one thing it sure as shit wasn't heaping criticisms at him.

[HumbleDuck]

Economically I would agree, that's because right wing economics works and left wing socialism has failed. It is self evident because we are all richer. However, on every social issue the western world has lurched left. Religious institutions are becoming more marginalised. Societal norms have changed dramatically over the last 30 years or so. For better or worse is debatable.

Example, gay marriage. Do you think that was even the slightest realms of possibility in the 1970s or 80s? The progressive left is the dominant culture today, that is indisputable.

Are you one of those people who thinks socialism is the same as communism and that the west is the manifestation of capitalism? Because otherwise these statements of yours doesn't make any sense.

[Varithimas]

Yeah, right wing economics sure worked well, what with the shrinking of the US middle class, the 2008 market crash, and wealth inequality that rivals third world nations. Such great work.

Europe is doing much better comparatively and they have many more "socialist" aspects to them.

Religion is no where near marginalized in the US. Religion plays a major role in politics and protestant evangelicals are one of the most politically powerful groups in the US.

The middle class and lower class are both shrinking, moving in to upper class incomes. The 2008 crash is due to policies enacted by Bill Clinton regarding sub-prime mortgages. Sure, there's a greater wealth inequality than previous generations, but the overall quality of life is far greater.

[Super Kami Dende]

Just do what you want to do, One thing I find hilarious is the Left telling people that Humans can't choose how they feel or think when it comes to things like sex/gender/sexual preferences. But someone who feels the way they do Politically is a big bad no for the Left if it isn't the exact way they think.

It's laughably hypocritical.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you one of those people who thinks socialism is the same as communism and that the west is the manifestation of capitalism? Because otherwise these statements of yours doesn't make any sense.

Socialism only works as a supplement to Capitalism. It fails on it's own. Where as Capitalism has no such down fall.

[PC2]

And is not inherently irrational, no matter how many times you incorrectly insist otherwise.

It literally calls for group based positions. It makes zero effort to be based on thinking for yourself or rationality.

[Wyrt]

Socialism only works as a supplement to Capitalism. It fails on it's own. Where as Capitalism has no such down fall.

Capitalism doesn't fail on it's own? Um, slavery was a thing that happened because of capitalism. The extreme of capitalism is exploitation of workers, slavery being the most extreme form of exploitation.

[Fugus]

I am not opposed to any of his social viewpoints. They're fine.

To avoid arguments, we'll just leave it that I don't believe mandated healthcare is a positive change in the United States. Is healthcare necessary? Yes. We will just probably always disagree with how we need to administer it.

A progressive taxation standard is becoming more reasonable in my eyes. Though I am hugely in favor of excise taxes and eliminating income taxes on wages, and taxing capital gains. It's more lucrative. This way, the rich is actually taxed more, and the poor can afford 15% more shit, 365 days per year.

However; if we are to have a government run healthcare system, people unable to afford should not be penalized. Shared responsibility is a slap in the face of the poor.

Sanders approach wasn't the ACA or mandatory insurance like Obama was going for. Sanders was expanding medicare for all so healthcare would be covered by taxes so that all were covered regardless of income. Sanders plan matches exactly what you mention you wanting in your last sentence.

The problem with excise taxes and other such things comes down to the fact that the rich can purchase stuff outside of the US and the rich spend a much smaller portion of their income than the more poor people. If you aren't taxing income,then your best bet would be to instead tax based on wealth so that you are taxed based on what you are worth instead of what you make which would hit them even harder.

[Garnier Fructis]

Just do what you want to do, One thing I find hilarious is the Left telling people that Humans can't choose how they feel or think when it comes to things like sex/gender/sexual preferences. But someone who feels the way they do Politically is a big bad no for the Left if it isn't the exact way they think.

It's laughably hypocritical.

'Wow, these guys have two different stances on two things which are incomparable. How hypocritical.'

[HumbleDuck]

The middle class and lower class are both shrinking, moving in to upper class incomes. The 2008 crash is due to policies enacted by Bill Clinton regarding sub-prime mortgages. Sure, there's a greater wealth inequality than previous generations, but the overall quality of life is far greater.

Are you guy trying to give me a heartattack today?

[Torto]

Comparatively, yes, the middle class in the US is worse of than it was in past decades.

Protestants aren't marginalized, other religious groups are. Protestants are one of the most powerful groups in US politics.

The media is not left wing progressive, it's pro-corporate conservative. Left wing progressive media would be things like The Young Turks, but they're not mainstream media by any measure and are actively ostracized by the mainstream media.

Comparative to what? Whether they own a plasma tv or not?

If you truly believe the main stream media isn't progressive left, then I don't know what else I can say to you. But it's quite clear how distorted your views are.

[HumbleDuck]

Just do what you want to do, One thing I find hilarious is the Left telling people that Humans can't choose how they feel or think when it comes to things like sex/gender/sexual preferences. But someone who feels the way they do Politically is a big bad no for the Left if it isn't the exact way they think.

It's laughably hypocritical.

- - - Updated - - -



Socialism only works as a supplement to Capitalism. It fails on it's own. Where as Capitalism has no such down fall.

Misread your comment.

Yea, capitalism never failed ever, right ...