Simcraft says "No Haste" to my Uh DK

[Deleted]

Hello,
I recently simcraft my Uh-DK. (many times)
If I believe Raidbots and Simcraft, I must have these balance of stats:
- 19% Crit
- 13% haste
- XX% Mastery (the rest)

With Mastery> Crit> Versa> Haste.

At first I did not think I could play with so little haste. But after a night of Raid and long moments of test on pole. The regeneration of runes is sufficient with this rate of hate. I did not have any dead time in my GCD.

I always heard that you had to get 20% hate. Maybe this has changed.

Here some Logs of last night with this "build": Name in game: Dàkeyras https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/y1aTNgtnKrA382Hm
It looks pretty good.

I share my experience here

[Frostyfire14]

I'm getting similar results on my DK too.

My Results (with 720-02 Sim-C Build): Str > Mastery > AP > Crit > Vers = > Haste

[Deleted]

It´s because the 20-21% "breakpoint" was calculated when Bursting Wounds was the current Meta. Since people play EF now on most encounters and Virulent Plague dmg doesn't benefit from haste, the value of haste has dropped significantly since the original calculations.

On the other hand, Bursting Wounds should/can still be played on the more complex encounters (Ellisande, Guldan), so it really is your choice here. I would just shoot for something like 18% haste, but the stat weights are too much in flux to give definit answers.

[Deleted]

It´s because the 20-21% "breakpoint" was calculated when Bursting Wounds was the current Meta.

it makes sense

thank you

[Deleted]

Hm it's weird then, while SimCraft defto gives Haste the lowest statweight atm (for my character), it's not as low as "you should lose almost half of it", so I'm a bit confused, how did the OP get that 13% is required?

[Deleted]

how did the OP get that 13% is required?

To start I launched the "top gear" on raidbots.com. I was curious to test this.
Raidbots then told me that the best combination of equipment compared to what I had in my bags gave: 19% crit / 13% haste / the rest in mastery.

i didnt trust Raidbots, so I checked with Simulationcraft 720-03 (the software, not the website)

So I manually tested several combinations of equipment and I arrived at the same result as on the Raidbots website.

The "13% hate" corresponds to the optimal haste score according to the pieces of equipment available in my bags.
This score will surely be different for someone else.

I came to ask the question here whether it was generalized.

As I said above, I tested this "build" in raid and I had no dead time in my GcD.
I post the Logs of the raid party to show that I had not smoked weed ^^

[VakeStorm]

Did you consider the ilvl differences of your gear? if you're comparing ilvl 905 gear with less haste versus high haste 885 gear then it's not a surprise that the low haste wins because of the likely greater return on str from the 905 gear.

Without more details on the gear used versus what could have been used we can't really say one way or another. But as you said this was a result of your available choices.

If you could have any of the gear you wanted at any ilvl I do believe the sims show that the "20% breakpoint" has more to do with rune regen than anything else for high dps output. Given most are playing necrosis now you're using less runes overall so this also helps with devaluing haste. This will likely change in T20 as we'll lose some of the nice regen we get by using T19 and DC will cost more RP to cast.

Also no dead time != highest dps output. There are a lot of variables when trying to figure out a guideline for stat allocation. This is why you should sim your character whenever you get a piece of gear as you never know what will help you edge that extra damage.

As an example, I got a chest upgrade last night which made me lose a gem slot that held my 200 str gem. I have two other gem slots in my gear currently. Doing sims showed replacing the mastery gem I have currently with a 200 str gem only netted a ~600 dps increase on a low movement, single target fight of which there are "2" in NH. The second you sim in adds the mastery gem ties or beats the str gem by about the same amount or more. Yet people will say as a guide to always have an str gem. It just depends on what you have available.

Sim regularly, sim often.

[Deleted]

i Sim regularly my character (every time i get a new item => to know if this item is better then for my pawn string).

To answer: The 20% haste gear is 903ilvl and the 13%haste gear is 903 too.

Atm i play with 16% haste because i looted a DoS 915 on Guldan at the end of the raid last night (905ilvl now).

I know this will change with the T20 and the disparition of the T19.
I juste posted this to share with other DK Players and maybe confirm this.

[Maxweii]

21% haste is a good place for rotational feel and flow of the spec. That didn't change between using Bursting Sores or Ebon Fever. That's the reason that we went to there though, not specifically because of BS. Still a good point to aim for but with this current tier bonuses we can drop a little extra

[Frostyfire14]

I'm new to Unholy, so shoot for 80% mastery, and 15-21% haste? Rest into crit/vers?

[Deleted]

I'm new to Unholy, so shoot for 80% mastery, and 15-21% haste? Rest into crit/vers?

I think its better to start for Haste (18%-20%) and Crit (15%-20%) then focus for mastery.
The mastery build isnt good if you have 80% mastery and 10% Crit-haste.

Why 18%-20% haste and not 15% ? because like you said, you are a new Unholy player. Haste may help you to learn the gameplay properly.

[Deleted]

Have you tried playing the spec with less than 15% haste? it's slow AF. Currently I'm running just shy of 18% and it seems to work well for me in Mythic +, I lack a little single target but I don't raid anymore so it's not a big deal.

[Deleted]

Have you tried playing the spec with less than 15% haste? it's slow AF. Currently I'm running just shy of 18% and it seems to work well for me in Mythic +, I lack a little single target but I don't raid anymore so it's not a big deal.

the WLogs in first post is with 13% haste.
The GcD, the regeneration are obv slowly but its not a problem. The results are pretty good.
Remember we can play with low haste juste because the T19 give us a lot of ressources.

[Maxweii]

the WLogs in first post is with 13% haste.
The GcD, the regeneration are obv slowly but its not a problem. The results are pretty good.
Remember we can play with low haste juste because the T19 give us a lot of ressources.

Basing what you should aim your stats for off of the top log is a poor basis of what to go for. Top logs are more indicative of good RNG, and on fights that you can, padding of adds allowed by the raid, as well as various other things like weapon level and ilvl.

[Deleted]

21% haste is a good place for rotational feel and flow of the spec. That didn't change between using Bursting Sores or Ebon Fever. That's the reason that we went to there though, not specifically because of BS. Still a good point to aim for but with this current tier bonuses we can drop a little extra

Nice feelcrafting there. So 21% is for the so called rotational "flow". Whats that supposed to be?

It´s pretty simple, when you Sim with EF, then the relative haste value drops by around 10% compared to BS. So yes, going from BS to EF changed the value of haste significantly. And the 21% magic number that floats around the internet simply isn´t useful as a guideline at that point.

[VakeStorm]

Nice feelcrafting there. So 21% is for the so called rotational "flow". Whats that supposed to be?

It´s pretty simple, when you Sim with EF, then the relative haste value drops by around 10% compared to BS. So yes, going from BS to EF changed the value of haste significantly. And the 21% magic number that floats around the internet simply isn´t useful as a guideline at that point.

The drop in haste has more to do with t19 + necrosis than EF vs BS. If you run IC you favor casting CS more and DC casts drop. This means you need more runes. Haste helps you regen runes faster. With t19 2p gets you RC from wound pops. 4pc gets you wounds from a DC. This is why necrosis is powerful. Ideally you're trading casting DC and CS. This means you don't need runes half the time and thus can have slower regen. Slower regen means you don't need as much haste and can dump more into mastery, crit, and vers.

This is all high level and there are other things to factor into our rotation, but t19 + necrosis how more to do with the drop in haste's value than EF does.

[Maxweii]

Nice feelcrafting there. So 21% is for the so called rotational "flow". Whats that supposed to be?

It´s pretty simple, when you Sim with EF, then the relative haste value drops by around 10% compared to BS. So yes, going from BS to EF changed the value of haste significantly. And the 21% magic number that floats around the internet simply isn´t useful as a guideline at that point.

Is it feelcraft because you want it to be? That's what every guide has been saying, not only just mine, since 7.0. Weather or not we take EF or BS, Haste value has never been finite. If in EN you had both Uvanimor and Draugr, then you would have run with about 15% haste due to excessive resources. Haste's value at 21% is a guideline to be around it by a good margin.

You can easily go OVER 21% haste, and still do exceptionally well just as you can under 21% haste.

[Deleted]

Is it feelcraft because you want it to be? That's what every guide has been saying, not only just mine, since 7.0. Weather or not we take EF or BS, Haste value has never been finite. If in EN you had both Uvanimor and Draugr, then you would have run with about 15% haste due to excessive resources. Haste's value at 21% is a guideline to be around it by a good margin.

You can easily go OVER 21% haste, and still do exceptionally well just as you can under 21% haste.

It´s feelcraft because you actually said its for the rotational "feel" and "flow". Tbh, I have no clue what you mean by that, maybe you can explain it. However, it´s a fact that the value of haste drops once you chose EF over BS and simcraft shows that. Obviously there are other factors involved aswell, but EF is a big factor. And the OP was specifically asking about the drop in the haste value in simcraft.

On the other hand, I couldn´t care less about the haste value with EF, since I´m not even using EF for the hard encounters.

[Deleted]

That's what every guide has been saying, not only just mine, since 7.0. Weather or not we take EF or BS, Haste value has never been finite

That is true
The various guides on DK UH (on acherus discord or other) have never changed them on the haste score needed (around 20%).
It seems normal that the haste score needed could change depending on the build: Castigator, Clawing Shadow, Ebon fever or Bursting Sores, Necrosis or Infected Claws, T19 ...
Maybe is this a mistake? The authors of these guides should have updated with the arrival of the T19, Ebon Fever, etc ...

And of course, everything will have to be recalculated when the T20 arrives

[Maxweii]

That is true
The various guides on DK UH (on acherus discord or other) have never changed them on the haste score needed (around 20%).
It seems normal that the haste score needed could change depending on the build: Castigator, Clawing Shadow, Ebon fever or Bursting Sores, Necrosis or Infected Claws, T19 ...
Maybe is this a mistake? The authors of these guides should have updated with the arrival of the T19, Ebon Fever, etc ...

And of course, everything will have to be recalculated when the T20 arrives

That's why it was never updated. It's not some hard specific number, you can be anywhere between 15-25% haste and be totally fine. Below 15% the spec feels dreadfully slow, sitting on resources all the time. Above 25% and you would be at a really, fast resource burning style.

Another very good reasoning behind 21% haste, is actually related to Soul Reaper. 21% Haste and then having the 21% from Soul Reaper puts us at a near 1s GCD, meaning for ~18 seconds every 45 seconds we have a great reduction in our gcd. Roughly 4 more attacks alone from this (granted resources to do so).