The night elves had the potential to rival the Titans!

[Beloren]

Saying you, a mortal, would ever come close to Titans is pretty much comparing you to a god. It may be "spotted potential" by given the hardly unbiased source it's worth taking with a bare grain of salt.

Why would Aluneth be biased?

[Zulkhan]

Why would Aluneth be biased?

Aluneth has a rather unhealthy obsession with power and doesn't really seem able to judge matters from a mortal's perspective, which shouldn't be a massive surprise given...well, what it is.

[Beloren]

Night Elves started good because they had humble origins, their Dark Troll ancestors were the one exceptional group that was simply fascinated with nature rather than power and maintained that mentality for a while. But the more they developed and the more their race expanded an higher number of people that wanted more grew and that's what brought to the Highborne caste. And seriously, before Azshara's madness started to kick in it wasn't even an inherently evil desire, they were just mortals. They saw power and possibilities and wanted to taste it and harness it. Despite the humble origins, even among them grew people that simply desired prestige, just like the Trolls of old fought for in the past.

yes, you're right
but the humility and benevolence attributed to the group is done so as night elves, and not just because it's the troll side in them lingering on as the good part only, not all night elves went power mad like the Palace highborne despite having access too and wielding all that power. And not all highborne went power mad like the Queen's group. We see the Menaar highborne, the Farondis Highborne, night elves like Ly'leth Lunastre and Thalyssra who behave with the same level of uprightness even after 10k years, as you'd expect.

The story records being chosen by the Queen as special that engendered this arrogance, not wielding the power or unable to handle it. They were clearly very good with handling it, they didn't destroy themselves with it. They let the demons in who destroyed them, their arrogance blinded them. THey coped with the power well enough, but it seems their intense loving nature - love of their queen led t othe arrogance that perhaps encouraged them more than it should have - that also is mortal failing.

We also see a lot of humility in the Kaldorei survivors when they turn to druidsm, and in the midst of the height of the arcane influence, we see the priesthood too largely essentially the good and humble benevolent group of people they all were. Where we see the most progress character wise is with the high elves. The night elves have it relatively easy maintaining the moral perfection that comes natural to them, when you're in an environment that's secure and empowered. However when you have the sort of exile journey the high elves had to make, which hurt so bad they diminish a bit, to then pick up like they did and build a utopia whilst maintaining their high principles and standards is very admirable. And they do it all over again as blood elves after the scourge attack

[Mace]

Why would Aluneth be biased?

he isn't as far as i know. Except he's all about power - which is sort of a bias that doesn't see other flaws. [but I'm partly speculating here]

Well, what they did was expanding an empire to no end, which is not wrong at all but not "good and right" either. It's just a growing civilization expanding and growing in power. They were surely much civilized and interested in knowledge but overall, their capability to do good or evil things come plain and simple from their mortal nature, which is just the same of pretty much every other race. Their flaws and desires remained those of mortals and because of those did both great good and great evil.



The megalomania came because the power was immense. Greater the power, greater the arrogance and the more they discovered its potential, they more they fell prey of its temptation. The addiction of course drove the Highborne specifically on the verge of insanity, which is, again, a very usual variable among Warcraft's mortal races. Their civilization was grand and magnificent and that filled most of them with hubris and superiority complexes. Again, it just proves that despite all, they were still mortal at the core, mortals that stumbled on a god's power that wasn't clearly meant for them but still happened, and experienced both joy and suffering because of it.

Very well put I am in agreement with this. Although I think it's not their mortality that is the central subject but rather there fallibility.

But these are not humans we are reading about. And while there might be an element of that, there could have been pure motives that led to this drive. The desire for more perfection , more purity, more good, more wonder - or to be able to stand toe to toe with any menace from beyond.

Easy to forget the night elves aren't human, and while human-like aren't written like humans, we see that a very specific thing at the root of their moral compromise of which excessive use of the arcane was the cause rather than a by product of. I suspect this was perhaps innocent at first, almost as if the last thing they suspected and thus didn't guard for, was that the power of creation and the cosmos could actually be harmful if over used.

While what you are saying makes logical sense even good one too, I think ....

careful not to get too logical about wow, the same rules that govern our world don't necessarily apply here, and they don't need to - but we have to implore some measure of rational as must the developers in order for any of it to make any amount of sense.

quote] Don't forget the night elves didn't "merely learn" to utilize the power [/quote] doing that was quite an achievement in itself as no one else had managed it, this is why they are said to have been the first to to study magic and shown to be the first to utilize it at this extraordinary level, a level that the survivors of the catstrophe haven't reached again.

. Don't forget the night elves didn't "merely learn" to utilize Azeroth's power in the Well (an achievement of itself as no one else had), The night elves are made from the arcane essence of the titan's blood, its in their make up, somehow this power fused into the dark trolls makes this new race's they start already enhanced by virtue of their genesis and base arcane essence (we're not sure how, I still think it was directed subconsciously by the titan herself or Elune - but it's only a suspicion),

Its because of this I suspect that the original night elf is the pinnacle of the elven development. All other subsequent mutations/deviation are off this balanced whole base that was naturally transformed.
- The high/blood elves got lessened by their strenuous journey, losing a portion of their birthright genetic power, whiles the process was natural too, it was from weakening and a hardship that nearly wiped them out, they survived but the result less than the original. however that doesn't mean the see highborne as a consequence didn't become better for it mentally, emotionally and psychologically, such an ordeal may weaken you in physical ways, but strengthens you in spiritual and mental ways - they suffered all the hardships the Kaldroei suffered, then had this too to contend with. Though diminished in capacity they found their own way and their own strength was their own, not a gift of tree buoying up their spirits. The sunwell restores some capability to them, but it's no Well of eternity, it's not even the 2nd Well.
-The nightborne arcane source of power is abused, and while it makes them more powerfully arcane, it also cripples them throws them out of balance, so initially they looked like they were the better version of night elf, but it would seem that they were just a more arcane powered version that had serious issues. Leaving the original still at the pinnacle. Of the three, though the strongest magically due to the nightwell, they are also the weakest via experience. However before we dismiss them, they have shown they are up to the task under severe duress, Thalyssra and her friends did so much in the weakened nightfallen state, that takes a resilience, showing that whether the bodies are weakened or elevated, there is a strength to the elven people. She emerges form her ordeal free of the addiction and champions a group of champions to liberating her city, she and all the city that. And lets face it, the legion was quite the ordeal.


At least that's how I read it. Flawless but not infallible - here is how you get from here (super empire) to here ( 1 city remaining (nightborne) and no civilization (night elves).

[Wildmoon]

Eh, what is it? Do we know?

ฺBig arcane elemental.

[Zulkhan]

But we don't really know what it is, where exactly it's little pocket plane is, what it actually knows about the Titans. If anything as a creature of power that is obsessed with power, it should be a decent source of estimating how powerful someone is so it seeing such potential in the Night Elves should not be discounted.

It may be obsessed with power but, again, doesn't seem to care about anything else. This is quite proved from the way it judges Dalaran and the Kirin Tor, deeming a responsible attitude towards the usage of magic as a sort of lack of ambition towards the gaining of greater power, while deeming the most reckless arcanists ever ("Azshara's people" may very well mean the Highborne specifically) as holding the potential to rival the Titans but somehow forgetting why that didn't happen in the first place.

Aluneth judges history and magic from a perspective that is incompatable with the one of mortals. Its estimations may even have some weight to the extent of what it cares for, but beyond that it's seemingly blind.

[ravenmoon]

Its because of this I suspect that the original night elf is the pinnacle of the elven development. All other subsequent mutations/deviation are off this balanced whole base that was naturally transformed.
- The high/blood elves got lessened by their strenuous journey, losing a portion of their birthright genetic power, whiles the process was natural too, it was from weakening and a hardship that nearly wiped them out, they survived but the result less than the original. however that doesn't mean the see highborne as a consequence didn't become better for it mentally, emotionally and psychologically, such an ordeal may weaken you in physical ways, but strengthens you in spiritual and mental ways - they suffered all the hardships the Kaldroei suffered, then had this too to contend with. Though diminished in capacity they found their own way and their own strength was their own, not a gift of tree buoying up their spirits. The sunwell restores some capability to them, but it's no Well of eternity, it's not even the 2nd Well.
.

except that i would counter that the this hardship was necessary to bleed arrogance and conceit out of the highborne, something that the sundering and loss of civilization didn't seem to have done. The Kaldorei would not have benefitted from that sort of ordeal cos they already had their house in order. Still they do say whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Mace]

The story records being chosen by the Queen as special that engendered this arrogance, not wielding the power or unable to handle it. They were clearly very good with handling it, they didn't destroy themselves with it. They let the demons in who destroyed them, their arrogance blinded them. THey coped with the power well enough, but it seems their intense loving nature - love of their queen led t othe arrogance that perhaps encouraged them more than it should have - that also is mortal failing.

oops, forgot about that one.. good spot, and it's in every account of their history

We also see a lot of humility in the Kaldorei survivors when they turn to druidsm,

humility and elves don't normally go hand in hand ,but i have to admit the night elves are a weird one there, prob intentional, they seem usually humble in game on poke, but humble is not what you'd attribute to Fandral, Maiev or Illidan.

[Beloren]

oops, forgot about that one.. good spot, and it's in every account of their history



humility and elves don't normally go hand in hand ,but i have to admit the night elves are a weird one there, prob intentional, they seem usually humble in game on poke, but humble is not what you'd attribute to Fandral, Maiev or Illidan.

yes it's largely hukmans that have been shown and portrayed as arrogant due to handling magic, not the elves. Showing they're not as solid or as well grounded on the morality or discipline side,.

Tbf, Fandral/Maiev/Illidan are very much exceptions, and are all form the ancient night elf empire.. not that arrogance was exclusive to people of that area, in contrast Tyrande and Malfurion don't have any of it, and the many night elf npcs are often humble.

Confident and excellent is not arrogance when it's fact, and mentioning it when appropriate or it coming up is not necessarily bragging. a mistake people make about the Thalassian elves. Some are arrogant true, but not all.

[ravenmoon]

which makes sense. There has to be an advantage of good upbringing, and well grounded roots like the elves. You have to consider, the discipline of handling the arcane both before Azshara and after her in order to prevent another her ever occuring would have been the case in all surviving elven communities.

Good solid upbringing and right living do make you better and stronger, and when it's your whole society you get a society that's mindset is far healthier and better to cope with such temptations.. another reason why Azshara's fall was such a stunning surprise to her people. And why the effects of the arcane were since taken seriously or at least with contingency in all elven groups.

[Beloren]

Sure it's some form of Arcane Elemental. But we don't really know what it is, where exactly it's little pocket plane is, what it actually knows about the Titans. If anything as a creature of power that is obsessed with power, it should be a decent source of estimating how powerful someone is so it seeing such potential in the Night Elves should not be discounted.

I mean for all we know, Aluneth might be for the Arcane what Murmur is for Sound

didn't Azshara wield Aluneth?

[Aucald]

didn't Azshara wield Aluneth?

Azshara wielded Sharas'dal, Scepter of Tides - the Restoration Shaman Artifact. The Greatstaff Aluneth was created by Aegwynn to contain the essence of the Arcane Elemental known as Aluneth, she used it at various times throughout her career as the Guardian.

[Mace]

yes it's largely hukmans that have been shown and portrayed as arrogant due to handling magic, not the elves. Showing they're not as solid or as well grounded on the morality or discipline side,.

Tbf, Fandral/Maiev/Illidan are very much exceptions, and are all form the ancient night elf empire.. not that arrogance was exclusive to people of that area, in contrast Tyrande and Malfurion don't have any of it, and the many night elf npcs are often humble.

Confident and excellent is not arrogance when it's fact, and mentioning it when appropriate or it coming up is not necessarily bragging. a mistake people make about the Thalassian elves. Some are arrogant true, but not all.

Don't get me wrong though, mastery of magic does breed arrogance, and that would have played a role. These guys w.ere wielding powers many say are not meant for mortals, but rather than be humble about it like we see the likes of Farondis/Evenshade/Thalyssra they got super arrogant or rather, it added to the arrogance their favored status engendered

[Xanato]

Well, Queen Azshara herself was a pretty heavy hitter as far as mortals on Azeroth go. During the War of the Ancients when ol' Mannoroth got angry with her and thought about ripping her head off. He stopped dead in his tracks when he realized that Azshara was "a force against which only his lord and Archimonde would prove superior".

It was also Malfurion's druidic magic under the guidance of Cenarius that enchanted the Axe of Cenarius, wielded by Broxigar who proceeded to scratch Sargeras' shin.
Sargeras before he embraced the Fel, was the Pantheon's champion. After his fall, he 1v6'd them and won.

But that's all just whatever anyway cause the true issue is how you define "power". Titans are just planet sized lifeforms of Arcane origin. Is a titan's "power" measured by being able to destroy a planet or is it more nuanced like creating lifeforms and terraforming planets? Because mortal races can achieve that.

It becomes hard to judge power levels once they exceed 9000....

[Mace]

except that i would counter that the this hardship was necessary to bleed arrogance and conceit out of the highborne, something that the sundering and loss of civilization didn't seem to have done. The Kaldorei would not have benefitted from that sort of ordeal cos they already had their house in order. Still they do say whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

despite their great age, they do tend to portray the highborne as childish almost/immature depserados. Which is why I like characters like Mordant Evenshade, Thalyssra and Farondis, they come off as befitting their great age. Or maybe i'm paying too much attention

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Well, Queen Azshara herself was a pretty heavy hitter as far as mortals on Azeroth go. During the War of the Ancients when ol' Mannoroth got angry with her and thought about ripping her head off. He stopped dead in his tracks when he realized that Azshara was "a force against which only his lord and Archimonde would prove superior".

It was also Malfurion's druidic magic under the guidance of Cenarius that enchanted the Axe of Cenarius, wielded by Broxigar who proceeded to scratch Sargeras' shin.
Sargeras before he embraced the Fel, was the Pantheon's champion. After his fall, he 1v6'd them and won.

But that's all just whatever anyway cause the true issue is how you define "power". Titans are just planet sized lifeforms of Arcane origin. Is a titan's "power" measured by being able to destroy a planet or is it more nuanced like creating lifeforms and terraforming planets? Because mortal races can achieve that.

It becomes hard to judge power levels once they exceed 9000....

it does.. and i have no reason to doubt Aluneth here.. we can't agree with what he says until he mentions something amazing about the night elves, then suddenly he's not competent - that feels more like night elf bias or elven bias, because these night elves are the ones from which the current horde and alliance groups come from.. blood elves shouldn't be hating them just because they're night elves and night elves are alliance.. these night elves are not alliance,, and these night elves are the ones the blood elves come form, they dont' come from the alliance kaldorei.. they're descendant from the empire kaldorei.

The titans wiled the arcane, that is the power used to create and order worlds, this is whythe arcane and nature get on quite well, and it's no surpirse the night elves become masters at both. they are made from the arcane, and it turns out they had quite the knaak for nature too. Everywhere arcane enhances the natural world, ti was used to maake it.. but it's a far more volatile and harder to utilise/control.. think of it like nature is the level 6 program, like a photoshop editor program, but the arcane is machine code or the C++ used to write that program.

The titans created, and just cos Sargeras could defeat them all in combat with fel doesn't mean fel is more powerful it only means fel is more destructive. People are guaging power only in terms of capacity to destroy and to win fights. Take the highborne and nightborne their knowledge outstrips every other elven and magical group by mortals considerably, yet they are not impossible to beat in a fight. Most of their magical supeirority is in knowledge and understanding, much of they used to create their wonderful cities and sculpt beauitufl forests and landscapes, innovation of magical devices and tech and all sorts of things - very few of which are relevant to combat. And though they proved formidable in combat they weren't surmountable. But then neither are dragons who are quite ancient nor legion lords who are pumped on power and some of them quite ancient - and their expertise is destruction yet people wield the power of creation - the arcane to beat them. Afterall the mages that fought the first warlocks were remarked to be a lot smarter than them and more knowledgeable, and were able to use their knowledge to beat these guys wielding far more potently destructive power.

Ofc the strength of this power drew many a power hungry human to start delving into this dark magic that drains life to empower it but destroys so very well. They abandon their principals and the elven held belief of responsibility, duty, and regulation when it comes to the arcane to channel these forces giving their very hearts (spirits ) and souls to be consumed by their lusts and greeds which makes them very different people wielding power callously and recklessly to achieve their thirsts for power and dominance. So cliche'd but there we go.

[Wildmoon]

Arcane is not harder than nature to wield. In fact, arcane magic is for more widespread than Druidism. Illidan failed to learn nature magic stumbling clumsily to grasp the concept.

Also, the titans did not solely wield arcane. They were made of arcane in essence but they wielded almost all kinds of magic including light,nature,elemental and obviously arcane.

[Aquamonkey]

Well, Queen Azshara herself was a pretty heavy hitter as far as mortals on Azeroth go. During the War of the Ancients when ol' Mannoroth got angry with her and thought about ripping her head off. He stopped dead in his tracks when he realized that Azshara was "a force against which only his lord and Archimonde would prove superior".

And Malfurion matched her.

[TheFirstOnes]

Arcane is not harder than nature to wield. In fact, arcane magic is for more widespread than Druidism. Illidan failed to learn nature magic stumbling clumsily to grasp the concept.

Also, the titans did not solely wield arcane. They were made of arcane in essence but they wielded almost all kinds of magic including light,nature,elemental and obviously arcane.

And yet Sargeras still fucked them....

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And Malfurion matched her.

Honestly, Azshara's not THAT strong. I mean, without N'zoths influence/power, she would be ROFLSTOMPED by us....

Yes, in her Nelven state, she was only surpassed by KJ/Archimonde, but we don't know by how much. In my eyes, Archimonde/Kil'jaeden were LEVELS above her, and (likely) still are to this day. She wields great power, but that's not enough. Without N'zoth, she could only go so far...

My list:

Kil'jaeden/Archimonde > N'zoth > Azshara > Malfurion/Mannoroth > Anyone below such...

[Deleted]

And yet Sargeras still fucked them....

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Honestly, Azshara's not THAT strong. I mean, without N'zoths influence/power, she would be ROFLSTOMPED by us....

Yes, in her Nelven state, she was only surpassed by KJ/Archimonde, but we don't know by how much. In my eyes, Archimonde/Kil'jaeden were LEVELS above her, and (likely) still are to this day. She wields great power, but that's not enough. Without N'zoth, she could only go so far...

My list:

Kil'jaeden/Archimonde > N'zoth > Azshara > Malfurion/Mannoroth > Anyone below such...

i am pretty sure illidan is above malfurion by light years, maybe even as strong as ne azshara

[TheFirstOnes]

i am pretty sure illidan is above malfurion by light years, maybe even as strong as ne azshara

As strong as Azshara? Unlikely....

Stronger than Malfurion? Likely.

Stronger than Kil'jaeden? Of course not.