New legendary ring (Soul of the Highlord)

[Meiffert]

If this makes it live rets will be so much stronger than any other dps it's not even funny. 7 retri paladins ho.

Oh boy, I can't wait for the blanket nerf to Ret a few weeks after this ring is out.

Let's just do some very basic napkin math here:
Let's take a 5 minute encounter (not that it matters, just for simplicity).
The total amount of finishers should be between 70 and 90 (just from some of my logs on Krosus/Star Augur).

Soul of the Highlord
- 20 % more finishers from the talent, means ~16 more
- TV average cast does ~1.2m damage, therefore we gain almost 20m damage
- 1053 secondary stats (ilvl 955, highest that wowhead currently shows)
- at ~10 dps per point of stats and 5 minute fight, we gain about 3m more
Total damage gained: ~23m

Liadrin's
- 3 extra finishers per Crusade, 3 Crusades per fight
- TV during Crusade deals about 1.7m, so we gain about 15m damage
- 4096 secondary stats (ilvl 955)
- at ~10 dps per point and 5 minute fight, we gain ~12m damage
Total damage gained: ~27m


Now, this math is very basic and doesn't take into account various other factors, such as opportunity cost of those GCD that are now spent on the extra finishers (more of them for Highlord's ring, but more during Crusade for Liadrin's) etc.

But at the end of the day, the new ring is likely worse or at the very least not much better than Liadrin's.
Liadrin's isn't even our best legendary, even though one of the rings might end up being best if we have to reserve the cloak and shoulder spots for t19 2p + t20 4p.

The sad thing is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if we actually end up being nerfed because people like you who don't bother to check any numbers, but immediately start losing their minds and spreading the news of how op paladins will be with DP + Crusade.

[SnorlaxJeng]

Let's just do some very basic napkin math here:
Let's take a 5 minute encounter (not that it matters, just for simplicity).
The total amount of finishers should be between 70 and 90 (just from some of my logs on Krosus/Star Augur).

Soul of the Highlord
- 20 % more finishers from the talent, means ~16 more
- TV average cast does ~1.2m damage, therefore we gain almost 20m damage
- 1053 secondary stats (ilvl 955, highest that wowhead currently shows)
- at ~10 dps per point of stats and 5 minute fight, we gain about 3m more
Total damage gained: ~23m

Liadrin's
- 3 extra finishers per Crusade, 3 Crusades per fight
- TV during Crusade deals about 1.7m, so we gain about 15m damage
- 4096 secondary stats (ilvl 955)
- at ~10 dps per point and 5 minute fight, we gain ~12m damage
Total damage gained: ~27m


Now, this math is very basic and doesn't take into account various other factors, such as opportunity cost of those GCD that are now spent on the extra finishers (more of them for Highlord's ring, but more during Crusade for Liadrin's) etc.

But at the end of the day, the new ring is likely worse or at the very least not much better than Liadrin's.
Liadrin's isn't even our best legendary, even though one of the rings might end up being best if we have to reserve the cloak and shoulder spots for t19 2p + t20 4p.

The sad thing is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if we actually end up being nerfed because people like you who don't bother to check any numbers, but immediately start losing their minds and spreading the news of how op paladins will be with DP + Crusade.

Blanketing a % proc isn't the best way to gauge it. If anything these things always go to the extremity since time immemorial (WF Procs since Vanilla).

You're also forgetting DP basically allows every BoW spec BoJ to be buffed, but let me ask you this do you believe in 5 minutes duration there isn't a chance of getting 4 more procs than the "average".

Secondly the damage variance between your TV average of 500k is a little too high for losing a 75% of a ring slot stat. I'm not claiming DP will break Ret DPS. At least I don't believe it will for ST. But AoE there will be times, that I have often experience, spamming 6-7 Divine Storm continuously with DP during Sentinax farming or Lower M+ having fun with DP.

While you did mention opportunity cost, I believe most of it for both scenarios will be one trading Crusader Strike for a TV. The current Meta of Ret paladin is to pack as much damage into Crusade window, DP facilitates it to some degree. But more so the problem that is being tackled is doing mediocre damage outside of crusade which DP helps immensely.

Simming of all things is to find an average ground of your gear setup and expectations to gauge your performance. Where proc comes into the equation, variances increases. The same thing is going to happens here with the DH sims. But if anything we will see a slight shift towards more similar results as DH simming. Your sim is going to tell you 1.1mil DPS average but your milage will be anything but that.

[Morally Grey Storm]

What's really important is will DP procs count towards Crusade stack building.
If the answer is no, this ring instantly loses any and all value.

[killwithpwr]

Everyone here is forgetting that the current itteration of the neq ring is a 910 leggo...

At same lvl, it will be way more powerfull, and its still a wip... So nothing really gonna be known for sure untill it is finalized

[Meiffert]

Secondly the damage variance between your TV average of 500k is a little too high for losing a 75% of a ring slot stat.

I haven't even taken the stats into account for the average TV damage (that's one of the many small things I said I omitted).
The difference is there because DP gives you extra finishers during the whole fight, so I took the average TV cast (~1.2m).
On the other hand, Liadrin's only works during Crusade, so all the extra finishers granted by Liadrin's are buffed by the 45 % Crusade multiplier.

You're also forgetting DP basically allows every BoW spec BoJ to be buffed, but let me ask you this do you believe in 5 minutes duration there isn't a chance of getting 4 more procs than the "average".

Fair enough. The point of my post wasn't to figure out which ring is marginally better. It will be easier and more precise to do once we have more information about 7.2.5 and the ring is properly integrated into simcraft, with possibly a new APL.

My point is that the new ring is roughly at the same level as the current legendaries.
It is probably better than a lot of the utility ones, probably slightly worse than belt and depending on many factors (like your preferred playstyle, type of encounter and your available tier pieces), you might choose it over shoulders/cloak/Liadrin's or not.

Currently, there seem to be many people losing their minds over the ring saying how it is completely broken and stronger than all other legendaries combined and campaigning for massive ret paladin nerfs to "compensate".

Edit:

Everyone here is forgetting that the current itteration of the neq ring is a 910 leggo...

At same lvl, it will be way more powerfull, and its still a wip... So nothing really gonna be known for sure untill it is finalized

I compared both rings at 955 ilvl. The effect doesn't scale anyway and you can find the stat amount of various ilvls on wowhead.

[Nition]

What's really important is will DP procs count towards Crusade stack building.
If the answer is no, this ring instantly loses any and all value.

Someone confirmed that it does count towards crusade stacks in another thread.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Currently, there seem to be many people losing their minds over the ring saying how it is completely broken and stronger than all other legendaries combined and campaigning for massive ret paladin nerfs to "compensate".

oh those once legendary compensatory nerfs.
Why don't we use the CoF Ret treatment?
Ring procs 70% less often for Retribution(other specs unaffected).
Seems legit.

Someone confirmed that it does count towards crusade stacks in another thread.

Good to hear, thank you.

[Lucetia]

Oh... you are right, it has a little bit, but not much. A measly 600-700 rating give or take and one socket. Liadrin's has 2100-2200 rating and a socket aswell.

That's at the 910 version though. 970 or 980 (Forgot what the new ilvl will be) will have more on top of whatever you socket, so it's as bad. I thin at 940 it has about 960 + socket so about half. Not sure how much the divine purpose talent is actually worth when you factor everything else in.

[Reith]

Let's just do some very basic napkin math here:
Let's take a 5 minute encounter (not that it matters, just for simplicity).
The total amount of finishers should be between 70 and 90 (just from some of my logs on Krosus/Star Augur).

Soul of the Highlord
- 20 % more finishers from the talent, means ~16 more
- TV average cast does ~1.2m damage, therefore we gain almost 20m damage
- 1053 secondary stats (ilvl 955, highest that wowhead currently shows)
- at ~10 dps per point of stats and 5 minute fight, we gain about 3m more
Total damage gained: ~23m

Liadrin's
- 3 extra finishers per Crusade, 3 Crusades per fight
- TV during Crusade deals about 1.7m, so we gain about 15m damage
- 4096 secondary stats (ilvl 955)
- at ~10 dps per point and 5 minute fight, we gain ~12m damage
Total damage gained: ~27m


Now, this math is very basic and doesn't take into account various other factors, such as opportunity cost of those GCD that are now spent on the extra finishers (more of them for Highlord's ring, but more during Crusade for Liadrin's) etc.

But at the end of the day, the new ring is likely worse or at the very least not much better than Liadrin's.
Liadrin's isn't even our best legendary, even though one of the rings might end up being best if we have to reserve the cloak and shoulder spots for t19 2p + t20 4p.

The sad thing is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if we actually end up being nerfed because people like you who don't bother to check any numbers, but immediately start losing their minds and spreading the news of how op paladins will be with DP + Crusade.

I kinda have a problem with your math because you're also not factoring DP can proc off itself. With 80 TVs regularly, that's actually an effective 24% more finishers, so that'd be 19 more (99 total) even rounding down when it's closer to 100 for the slightly worse case scenario. That, in turn, makes the cloak buff much more consistent if you're using it for a probably 12-13% (possibly 14% and rarely very close to 15%) effective damage boost on finishers overall instead of 7-9% we typically see right now (though you can get lucky and get it higher).

Having said all that, though, I'm still not sure where this ring stands because I haven't done the hard number crunching. I'm hoping that if it's as low as sims say it is, they'll fix it, or even better, just buff DP, would be the most logical thing to do.

- - - Updated - - -

What's really important is will DP procs count towards Crusade stack building.
If the answer is no, this ring instantly loses any and all value.

I am a prophet and I will tell you right now DP counts as the full holy power count of the ability using it.

[Meiffert]

I kinda have a problem with your math because you're also not factoring DP can proc off itself. With 80 TVs regularly, that's actually an effective 24% more finishers, so that'd be 19 more (99 total) even rounding down when it's closer to 100 for the slightly worse case scenario.

You are right, it also makes the opportunity cost of DP slightly worse. Brings the rings closer at least, still with Liadrin's slightly ahead.
I'm sure there are more things that are not being taken into account. Other than the GCDs used up, there is the ilvl (I don't think the 7.2.5 legendary ilvl is 955, but it's the highest wowhead shows) and probably many more.
It's just a very simplistic estimate of the value of the legendary ability and raw stats between the two rings.

That, in turn, makes the cloak buff much more consistent if you're using it for a probably 12-13% (possibly 14% and rarely very close to 15%) effective damage boost on finishers overall instead of 7-9% we typically see right now (though you can get lucky and get it higher).

The cloak is pretty much out of the picture for two reasons:

1. It takes away a tier slot not allowing a t19 2p, which is a 10 % finisher damage, comparable to the cloak effect by itself.
2. Takes away another another legendary slot (presumably the belt, which is even stronger than cloak by itself).

These two combined make legendary cloak/shoulders lose a lot of value, unless Blizzard changes their mind about stacking t19 + t20 in some way.

Right now, we are likely looking at the belt and one of the rings.

[Goldenboy1]

The cloak is pretty much out of the picture for two reasons:

1. It takes away a tier slot not allowing a t19 2p, which is a 10 % finisher damage, comparable to the cloak effect by itself.

2 piece is being nerfed to 7% after Tomb is released. Im not sure how heavily that 3% difference will weigh in. Meaning if it is even worth grabbing 2 pieces for 7% finisher damage or will the gap in stats make regular Tomb gear be better compared to picking up 2 t19 pieces.

[Deleted]

That's at the 910 version though. 970 or 980 (Forgot what the new ilvl will be) will have more on top of whatever you socket, so it's as bad. I thin at 940 it has about 960 + socket so about half. Not sure how much the divine purpose talent is actually worth when you factor everything else in.

Well, i hope you are right. I would love to use this ring. But for that, it needs to beat liadrin's.

[Meiffert]

2 piece is being nerfed to 7% after Tomb is released. Im not sure how heavily that 3% difference will weigh in. Meaning if it is even worth grabbing 2 pieces for 7% finisher damage or will the gap in stats make regular Tomb gear be better compared to picking up 2 t19 pieces.

Will there be a higher ilvl cap on the ToS gear?

[SnorlaxJeng]

I'm more interested how the following will sim out or work in practice

Stat weight 960 ilvl:
17000 Mastery, 10000 Haste, 4000 Versatility+Crit

Talent:
1/2/1/2/1/1/1+2

Equipment:
Legendary: Soul of The Highlord + Chain of Thayrn
Tier 19: 2p @ 825 iLvl
Tier 20: 4p @ 840 iLvl
Relic : 3/3 Wrath of the Ashbringer


Reasoning to it is that with 4P T20 Mastery affecting BoJ and DP reducing CS, we will be using more spenders, BoJ and Judgement. Will 80+% mastery with 160% Judgement damage come up ahead?

[Wutangrza]

What's really important is will DP procs count towards Crusade stack building.
If the answer is no, this ring instantly loses any and all value.

They will. DP procs count towards fist of justice HP spent.

[killwithpwr]

Yeah, it probably will count, seeing as the FoJ buff procs in DP...
So stacking Crusade at ~20% faster might have a great effect on this ring + the extra TVs and buffed BoJs on 15 stacks of crusade combined with chain...

Its really hard to believe that this Ring, sucky as it stats may be, will not be a contender to a bis slot...

With 35 or so seconds of crusade, the potential is very high in my eyes, especially since we seem to need to slack a little on haste in favor of mastery, and thats a downgrade to the cloak overall.

But as i said earlier, untill the ring is finalised, and stats can be trusted to not change (or anything else for that matter) even simming it with datamined info will not net you the real results.

My fear is that blizzard will decide that DP is too strong and either nerf it, or change the ring to give us greater judgement... Or worse... Consecration

[Morally Grey Storm]

Well actually them switching DP for HW or Concecration/ES will be a change for the best.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't be surprised if players with this ring would have a higher affection for mastery than normally.
Storm I believe like you that it would make more sense to give us es, hw or a nerfed dp through the ring cause blizzard.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Considering our next tier set emphasizes mastery value, I wouldn't be surprised too.
Anyway, bzzd, common sense and Retribution don't exactly mesh well together.
But them giving us something like hw or ES would indeed remove any and all questions and rest our case.

I am genuinely slightly baffled current iteration of ring doesn't have any strings attached, the likes of reduced proc chance, procrate, or something else entirely.
We shall see yet. We might yet delve into vast depths of bzzd wisdom.

Thankfully my inner optimist is long dead, his butchered, desecrated carcass sodomized, quartered and impaled upside down sideways, and left at that for parade within my mind fir everyday inspiration and as a memento.
Which brings forth my inner realist, who keeps telling me to expect something, anything to feth Ret up.

[Reith]

I know for sure mastery lost a bit of value in single target with the ~3.7% increase in damage for non-finisher abilities. Divine Hammer does less damage overall, and mastery no longer affects Blade of Justice or Divine Hammer because it's flat 15%. Mastery will continue to be a shitty stat, actually a little worse in 7.2.5 in single target. It might go slightly up for AOE, but it's even worse in AOE anyway.